Windows 10 updates more likely to cause problems than running it unpatched? The irony of the updater

heatlesssun said:
I've been playing games on computers for 37 years. It's not a political thing for me but something I've longed enjoyed and will probably do so until I can't or until I die.
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It's not about politics, it's more about morality and corporate greed, as well as the fact that the relatively open PC platform should remain open.
 
BulletDust said:
It's not about politics, it's more about morality and corporate greed, as well as the fact that the relatively open PC platform should remain open.
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So before I bought my HTC Vive there was a morality clause I needed to read? I'm perfectly happy to support open source stuff if it does what I want. Politics, morality, whatever you want to call it, I simply want to do things with my devices otherwise I wouldn't have spent the money in this first place.
 
heatlesssun said:
So before I bought my HTC Vive there was a morality clause I needed to read? I'm perfectly happy to support open source stuff if it does what I want. Politics, morality, whatever you want to call it, I simply want to do things with my devices otherwise I wouldn't have spent the money in this first place.
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And you can...

...With Microsoft's permission.

Smartphones and tablets were never about respecting privacy, the same cannot be said about desktop PC's. The hope is that by telling MS to piss off we can keep the PC private and use it to do the things we want to do the way we want to do them without asking Microsoft's permission via an EULA or being tied to their propitiatory default formats.

Morality is a choice - Do I want to submit and allow Microsoft to slowly take over the PC platform via their OS, forced proprietary formats and secureboot; or do I want to support freedom and keep the PC as a platform as open as possible not only for myself but for future generations?

Of course we all know what side of the morality equation you stand on. You say that you'd switch to Linux if certain vendors supported it and it became a viable gaming platform with Office (bearing in mind that titles have grown in far less time than Apple based machines and most likely in far less time than even Windows based machines on the Steam platform) yet you refuse to support anything that isn't Windows based - Believing that Windows exists, so I should just use it, for everything.

As a result, as Windows evolves chances are personal freedoms are going to continue to be further eroded as people submit to Microsofts standover tactics.

Or will they? Is the questionable popularity of Windows 10 the beginning of change? Is the shift of governments globally to non proprietary formats the beginning of change? Perhaps even Microsoft themselves can see it as evidenced in their new found support of Linux?

Spending a lot of cash on a PC by no means indicates that it has to run Windows in order to be useful
 
BulletDust said:
Smartphones and tablets were never about respecting privacy, the same cannot be said about desktop PC's.
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PCs came along LONG before the internet, cloud services, device sharing, etc. Privacy wasn't a foundational issue for PCs because they were connected to anything in their beginning.

BulletDust said:
The hope is that by telling MS to piss off we can keep the PC private and use it to do the things we want to do the way we want to do them without asking Microsoft's permission via an EULA or being tied to their propitiatory default formats.
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You keep talking about propitiatory formats. Office Open XML isn't a proprietary format. But if came from Microsoft so sure it is.


BulletDust said:
Morality is a choice - Do I want to submit and allow Microsoft to slowly take over the PC platform via their OS, forced proprietary formats and secureboot; or do I want to support freedom and keep the PC as a platform as open as possible not only for myself but for future generations?

Of course we all know what side of the morality equation you stand on. You say that you'd switch to Linux if certain vendors supported it and it became a viable gaming platform with Office (bearing in mind that titles have grown in far less time than Apple based machines and most likely in far less time than even Windows based machines on the Steam platform) yet you refuse to support anything that isn't Windows based - Believing that Windows exists, so I should just use it, for everything.

As a result, as Windows evolves chances are personal freedoms are going to continue to be further eroded as people submit to Microsofts standover tactics.

Or will they? Is the questionable popularity of Windows 10 the beginning of change? Is the shift of governments globally to non proprietary formats the beginning of change? Perhaps even Microsoft themselves can see it as evidenced in their new found support of Linux?

Spending a lot of cash on a PC by no means indicates that it has to run Windows in order to be useful
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So all of this simply because I like 2 in 1s, what to play the latest games and want to do positional VR. You talk about freedom but there's a lot of preaching about your concept of morality in all of this. So Microsoft is spying on me and your concept of freedom is what you think is free? What's the difference?
 
heatlesssun said:
PCs came along LONG before the internet, cloud services, device sharing, etc. Privacy wasn't a foundational issue for PCs because they were connected to anything in their beginning.
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I'm talking about privacy of information on the desktop platform, you keep trying to cross reference such privacy to mobile smart platforms that never gave us the option for privacy from the beginning. Privacy is still a fundamental issue for PC users and should be respected as such.

heatlesssun said:
You keep talking about propitiatory formats. Office Open XML isn't a proprietary format. But if came from Microsoft so sure it is.
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The idea of open formats in relation to Office products is nothing new, and Microsoft products are supposed to support open formats making information interchange easier. However there is no doubt that incompatibilities still exist and there is no guarantee that any document authored in MS Office is going to open correctly in another office suite. This shouldn't be the case and should never happen, so you tell me, if there isn't some proprietary influence at work here than why is compatibility such an issue on a supposed open format?

heatlesssun said:
So all of this simply because I like 2 in 1s, what to play the latest games and want to do positional VR. You talk about freedom but there's a lot of preaching about your concept of morality in all of this. So Microsoft is spying on me and your concept of freedom is what you think is free? What's the difference?
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When did I state that I think Free as in cost equals free as in freedom?!

I've never stated this and never will.

I want full control over the updating process without resorting to third party hacks, can I do this? That's what freedom is about to me.
 
I bought a used Amiga 500 while I was stationed in the Philippines. Poo-poo it all you want, but it was a kick-ass computer. Much better that the 520ST I had before.
 
Wyodiver said:
I bought a used Amiga 500 while I was stationed in the Philippines. Poo-poo it all you want, but it was a kick-ass computer. Much better that the 520ST I had before.
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I'm not too sure who you're referencing here, but I have an A500, an A1200 and C64 Breadbin all in pristine condition and fully expanded with onboard upscalers, CF HDD's and 68030 accelerators running OS3.1. I think the Amiga is a kick arse platform! Compared to Windows 95, AmigaOS 3.1 with enhancements smashed it in the day.
 
BulletDust said:
I'm talking about privacy of information on the desktop platform, you keep trying to cross reference such privacy to mobile smart platforms that never gave us the option for privacy from the beginning. Privacy is still a fundamental issue for PC users and should be respected as such.
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The first Windows PC I owned like the other computing platforms I had before it were not connected. You're defining an expectation of something that simply wasn't even technologically in the question when PCs first emerged. PCs over time have incorporated many things. They didn't have mice. They didn't have hard drives. Yes, PCs today incorporate features of smartphones because smartphones ARE the PCs of today. Whatever moral judgement you want to make the way smartphones work has become the expectation.

BulletDust said:
The idea of open formats in relation to Office products is nothing new, and Microsoft products are supposed to support open formats making information interchange easier. However there is no doubt that incompatibilities still exist and there is no guarantee that any document authored in MS Office is going to open correctly in another office suite. This shouldn't be the case and should never happen, so you tell me, if there isn't some proprietary influence at work here than why is compatibility such an issue on a supposed open format?
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Open formats =/= equivalent features. LibreOffice has no concept of digital ink. Just because it doesn't handle it doesn't has nothing to do with file formats. I can put ink in a Word doc and save it in OpenDoc format. LibreOffice still doesn't recognize the ink.

BulletDust said:
I want full control over the updating process without resorting to third party hacks, can I do this? That's what freedom is about to me.
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More control over stuff, I'm not debating this and never have. I just want the things I want as well.
 
heatlesssun said:
The first Windows PC I owned like the other computing platforms I had before it were not connected. You're defining an expectation of something that simply wasn't even technologically in the question when PCs first emerged. PCs over time have incorporated many things. They didn't have mice. They didn't have hard drives. Yes, PCs today incorporate features of smartphones because smartphones ARE the PCs of today. Whatever moral judgement you want to make the way smartphones work has become the expectation.
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I'm sorry, smartdevices are useful, but I by no means think of them as the PC's of today. Yes, they are a PC if you run Windows mobile devices under x64, but that's the only exception. I also disagree that PC's necessarily incorporate features of smartphones.

You talk of a lack of privacy almost as evolution, I say if that's evolution it has to stop right now in relation to dedicated desktop machines. The internet and interconnectivity has been around for a long time, but it's only recently that privacy and the respect of personal information, not to mention full control over one's PC has become an issue worth discussing.

heatlesssun said:
Open formats =/= equivalent features. LibreOffice has no concept of digital ink. Just because it doesn't handle it doesn't has nothing to do with file formats. I can put ink in a Word doc and save it in OpenDoc format. LibreOffice still doesn't recognize the ink.
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I'm going to assume digital ink is related somehow to OneNote? I wasn't specifically referencing OneNote.
 
BulletDust said:
I'm sorry, smartdevices are useful, but I by no means think of them as the PC's of today. Yes, they are a PC if you run Windows mobile devices under x64, but that's the only exception. I also disagree that PC's necessarily incorporate features of smartphones.

You talk of a lack of privacy almost as evolution, I say if that's evolution it has to stop right now in relation to dedicated desktop machines. The internet and interconnectivity has been around for a long time, but it's only recently that privacy and the respect of personal information, not to mention full control over one's PC has become an issue worth discussing.
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Smartphones are the most personal of computing devices these days. They are today's PCs because they are THE computing device billions have near them at all times. The PC morphed into being on every desk to being in every pocket.

BulletDust said:
I'm going to assume digital ink is related somehow to OneNote? I wasn't specifically referencing OneNote.
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Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Outlook have supported ink since Office 2003.
 
heatlesssun said:
Smartphones are the most personal of computing devices these days. They are today's PCs because they are THE computing device billions have near them at all times. The PC morphed into being on every desk to being in every pocket.
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I'm not too sure what others think of this comment, but i don't agree at all.

An Ipad is not a replacement for my PC by any stretch if the imagination.
 
BulletDust said:
I'm not too sure what others think of this comment, but i don't agree at all.

An Ipad is not a replacement for my PC by any stretch if the imagination.
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You've constantly said the things I do with PCs are niche and I've agreed. Everyone has a smartphone at the ready wherever they do these days and well all see it. When does a day go by we don't see half the people we walked by looking at a smartphone screen?
 
BulletDust said:
heatlesssun said:
Smartphones are the most personal of computing devices these days. They are today's PCs because they are THE computing device billions have near them at all times. The PC morphed into being on every desk to being in every pocket.
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I'm not too sure what others think of this comment, but i don't agree at all.

An Ipad is not a replacement for my PC by any stretch if the imagination.
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I agree with the statement for what it says. From checking email, paying bills, Facebook, to selfie sharing, the smartphone is probably the most personal of computing devices. Typical users pack all sorts of information about themselves into and through those devices.

The counter thought being that it's all moving so fast that people are not always evaluating the ramifications and risk exposed by engaging in that care free sharing. You could liken it to the drug and free sex movements... then the STDs appeared. I guess only time will tell.
 
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heatlesssun said:
You've constantly said the things I do with PCs are niche and I've agreed. Everyone has a smartphone at the ready wherever they do these days and well all see it. When does a day go by we don't see half the people we walked by looking at a smartphone screen?
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That doesn't indicate that it's a replacement for the PC. In many ways there is no way smart devices can replace the PC, they're just far too limiting. Checking Facebook via a memory hogging app on a mobile device is vastly different to typing up a document using a virtual touchscreen keyboard.

Smart devices are items of convenience, they're not intended to be a replacement for the correct tool for the job.

And even if smart devices could be considered a replacement to the desktop PC, I fail to see how this relates to the privacy and control of one's desktop PC?
 
BulletDust said:
That doesn't indicate that it's a replacement for the PC. In many ways there is no way smart devices can replace the PC, they're just far too limiting. Checking Facebook via a memory hogging app on a mobile device is vastly different to typing up a document using a virtual touchscreen keyboard.

Smart devices are items of convenience, they're not intended to be a replacement for the correct tool for the job.

And even if smart devices could be considered a replacement to the desktop PC, I fail to see how this relates to the privacy and control of one's desktop PC?
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For a person that love multiple monitors, I get the difference in what you're talking about between PCs and smartphones. But yeah, checking Facebook is a much more common daily activity for causal users than typing up a document. Smartphones do the personal things billions now use while always being there, unlike a 3 screen desktop.

A smartphone isn't for everything but it is for many things and it's the device that's always there which I think makes it much more personal than a PC.
 
BulletDust said:
Really? As an Amiga user I remember being a little disappointed in the 68020, it wasn't until the 68030 was released that I really noticed a difference over the venerable 68000.
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You know, I totally blanked on the Amiga (and Atari ST), despite having an Amiga 500 in the same closet as the Mac LC. :p That's a very fair observation, and I do remember the Amiga being fairly snappy compared to the same era Macs that were available. I never got an Amiga 1200 (with or without CPU upgrades), so I wouldn't have experienced those differences on Amigas. I did notice a huge difference when Apple went from the 68000 to 68020 which doubled the clock speed, added a L1 cache, and optional MMU (but not on my LC), which is what my comment was based on.
 
pxc said:
You know, I totally blanked on the Amiga (and Atari ST), despite having an Amiga 500 in the same closet as the Mac LC. :p That's a very fair observation, and I do remember the Amiga being fairly snappy compared to the same era Macs that were available. I never got an Amiga 1200 (with or without CPU upgrades), so I wouldn't have experienced those differences on Amigas. I did notice a huge difference when Apple went from the 68000 to 68020 which doubled the clock speed, added a L1 cache, and optional MMU (but not on my LC), which is what my comment was based on.
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I'm not too familiar with early Apple 68k systems. Possibly the use of the Amiga's custom chipset made it the better multi media machine in direct comparison to the Mac, hiding some of the performance issues of the 68000?
 
BulletDust said:
I'm not too familiar with early Apple 68k systems. Possibly the use of the Amiga's custom chipset made it the better multi media machine in direct comparison to the Mac, hiding some of the performance issues of the 68000?
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Yes, offloading the most intensive rendering operations (maintaining multiple playfield views and blitting) to a graphics chip likely helped the Amiga tremendously when it came to managing the GUI.
 
For the record, the 68030 overclocks really well. I've got both of mine running at double their clock speed in both my A500 and A1200 no problem.
 
rezerekted said:
There is this:

http://www.site2unblock.com/software/

Win Updates Disabler v1.4
Easily disable automatic Windows Updates, Windows Security Center, Windows Defender and Windows Firewall.


Then enable WU again when you want to get updates.

I bitch about updates all the time, load Steam and updates, turn on my Tablet and updates. It is never ending and is getting on my tits.
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THANK YOU! was about to post a new thread asking how to turn off the ridiculous auto updates
 
rezerekted said:
There is this:

http://www.site2unblock.com/software/

Win Updates Disabler v1.4
Easily disable automatic Windows Updates, Windows Security Center, Windows Defender and Windows Firewall.


Then enable WU again when you want to get updates.

I bitch about updates all the time, load Steam and updates, turn on my Tablet and updates. It is never ending and is getting on my tits.
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Do you really trust a third party hack when the functionality should exist in the OS itself? Next major update Microsoft will probably take it upon themselves to remove and disable this application.
 
BulletDust said:
Do you really trust a third party hack when the functionality should exist in the OS itself? Next major update Microsoft will probably take it upon themselves to remove and disable this application.
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not if its blocked! :D
 
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86 5.0L said:
Not with the direction Microsoft is going...
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Fair enough. Perhaps it'd be safer to set up a hard drive with Linux for daily use and keep Windows purely for gaming, switch between the two using the boot preferences built into UEFI? Running an unpatched/un-updated Windows box is a little risky?
 
If 'digital ink' hasn't been included in Libreoffice, developers don't see the importance the way you do heatlessun. Otherwise it would have been included years ago.

I have to say I share the views of the developers. I throw that feature right to the box of 'discard' next to Onenote.

The computer didn't become mobile devices. Smart phones are just toys that can be pretended to be used like computers but not quite. Everything is clumsy and difficult with the tiny screens and clunky input (hence digital inks). But some people are masochists and dig tunnels with spoons - or they're just too lazy to start up that giant excavator next to them.
 
B00nie said:
If 'digital ink' hasn't been included in Libreoffice, developers don't see the importance the way you do heatlessun. Otherwise it would have been included years ago.
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Libreoffice doesn't even support basic touch and there's a lot of Win32 apps that do that pretty well these days including big non-MS apps like Chrome.
 
heatlesssun said:
Libreoffice doesn't even support basic touch and there's a lot of Win32 apps that do that pretty well these days including big non-MS apps like Chrome.
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Yes, thank god it doesn't have the ribbon interface and other monstrosities that were compromised to get 'touch' i.e. vanity features.
 
I've gotta say, all bias aside, I agree with B00nie. I see no reason why desktop apps need to support touch and I'm glad Libreoffice doesn't support the ribbon interface.

Having said that, if you want the ribbon interface under Linux you can always run WPS Office, which is actually a very capable, and compatible, Office suite.
 
No ribbon in Chrome and it's touch aware. A lot of desktop software is has at least basic touch awareness and you wouldn't even know unless you used it on a touch capable device.
 
heatlesssun said:
No ribbon in Chrome and it's touch aware. A lot of desktop software is has at least basic touch awareness and you wouldn't even know unless you used it on a touch capable device.
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I get extremely irritated when ever I have to use a touch device. Way too clumsy and unergonomical to work with. I don't even use my iPad Pro unless there's an emergency and I simply don't have better options at hand.
 
B00nie said:
I get extremely irritated when ever I have to use a touch device. Way too clumsy and unergonomical to work with. I don't even use my iPad Pro unless there's an emergency and I simply don't have better options at hand.
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If you don't like touch devices why have and iPad Pro?
 
BulletDust said:
Having said that, if you want the ribbon interface under Linux you can always run WPS Office, which is actually a very capable, and compatible, Office suite.
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WPS certainly got its inspiration from Microsoft Office. The ribbon is only a part of enabling touch in Microsoft Office. WPS copies the ribbon but many of the non-visible elements aren't there like touch scrolling in drop down lists. And MS Office adapts much of the UI based on input, you'd never see it when using a keyboard and mouse. WPS has some touch awareness but doesn't adapt its UI based on input type.
 
My Nexus 9 running CM13 is an awesome device. I use it all the time for everything ranging from downloading .ADF or .D64 files, unzipping them and transferring them to CF HDD or USB stick, right through to accessing old school BBS's via the terminal and streaming raw media over the network to view via VLC in bed. I've got nothing against touch interfaces on touch devices.

I don't want a touch interface on my desktop machine, it's not necessary and it's inclusion in Windows 10 is messy - It's not as bad as Windows 8/8.1, but it's still like two completely different operating systems in one. Even vanilla Ubuntu with the Unity interface is a bit too touch happy for my liking.
 
I think you get the most annoyance out of the updates if you use a low performance laptop with a slow system HDD. Never use the computer more than only for a short time once a month or less frequent, to ensure that there will be critical updates applied to the OS as well as any security programs each time you run it.

(Last night I updated my wife's computer which fit that bill. First Norton took some 15 minutes to download and install the latest patches. After re-boot it spent a good while doing a quick scan of the system. Once the scan was done I ran Windows Update, which spent an hour or more to install the latest patches.)
 
No low performance machines here and I find the Windows 10 updater almost laughable in comparison to previous, not to mention competing, operating systems.
 
BulletDust said:
I don't want a touch interface on my desktop machine, it's not necessary and it's inclusion in Windows 10 is messy - It's not as bad as Windows 8/8.1, but it's still like two completely different operating systems in one. Even vanilla Ubuntu with the Unity interface is a bit too touch happy for my liking.
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You don't like it but the touch elements are very necessary on many Windows devices these days.
 
heatlesssun said:
You don't like it but the touch elements are very necessary on many Windows devices these days.
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FWIW, .00001% of the installed user base with a Surface device arent "many users", and most Surface users I see on the rare occasion out at a Starbucks are just using it as a glorified ultralight laptop - no screen poking.

Touch on Windows is dead in the water because the apps are crap.
 
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