From ATI to AMD back to ATI? A Journey in Futility @ [H]

Well kyle was right. Its just that alot of people thought he was mad but in reality thats just his style. Here is what happened.

AIB cards are coming out and kyle himself reported that they can do between 1.48 to 1.6 but that range it really depends on the chip..

That proves his point.

AMD wanted close to fury performance but the card was drawing too much power at those clocks and they were only designing one chip with 2306 shaders and going for max clocks and efficiency.

So they turned that bitch down to 1266 and priced it cheap and made a mistake of putting a 6 pin connector on there. I don't know why they didn't put an 8 pin connector and called it 160w TDP for the power usage. Blows my mind.

Kyle's report about AIBs hitting 1.48 - 1.6 just shows that this chip is capable of doing more but with much higher power draw.

Which actually makes me glad they didn't try to throw vega on the brand new 14nm process and made it a mess. I think they will probably have few more revisions of this chip by the time vega comes out. We might even see a 485 that is a different revision and improves on clock speed and efficiency.

It seems that AMD is having all kinds of variations in chips. We are getting 1266 and then probably 1.5-1.6 max but at current state at GF its requiring too much power to run at those speeds that they weren't comfortable with.

I truly think it should use much less power at 14nm but I think it is just taking them longer to get there. I hope another 6 months will do the trick and they can refine this process well enough in time for Vega.

Indeed, but time is not AMD friend at the moment, they really cannot afford to sit around trying to iron this out while nVidia is preparing for their next release. Forget the whole pcie spec thing, I agree with you and really hope AMD just get the power consumption issue under control, I was just surprised how much power it is using at 14nm process.
 
AMD got lucky with the HBM2 delays, they most likely would have tried to release it on the new process. But we don't even know for sure if its the new process to blame yet or the aging GCN arch.

I am pretty sure it is. I think they have had like 3 revisions of the chip before rhey released and reports of first one not hitting 850. Looks like they improved it a lot. Almost all the YouTube videos I have seen are reporting the problem is not voltage on the card if you up the power meter it clocks higher just fine but the cooler can't handle it and the second problem is power draw from pic-e. I think think it's just power hungry at this time. That to me sounds like the new node that's giving them pain in the ass.

Remember the 290 and 290x those were horribly power hungry when they first came out and ran hot. Seems like the same to me but this time this chip can run at high clocks but it wants a whole lot of juice to do it.
 
AMD got lucky with the HBM2 delays, they most likely would have tried to release it on the new process. But we don't even know for sure if its the new process to blame yet or the aging GCN arch.

I am thinking new process, correct me if I am wrong, I believe 480 chips are produce by Global Foundries and Samsung right? If so, will using standard library be detrimental in a new process?
 
Indeed, but time is not AMD friend at the moment, they really cannot afford to sit around trying to iron this out while nVidia is preparing for their next release. Forget the whole pcie spec thing, I agree with you and really hope AMD just get the power consumption issue under control, I was just surprised how much power it is using at 14nm process.

Yea me too! Doesn't look like clocks are the issue from aib reports. 1.48 to 1.6 is possibly and the range depends on chips. AMD just decided to sell it cheap and let AIBs do their thing and I am sure they will keep tweaking it.
 
I am thinking new process, correct me if I am wrong, I believe 480 chips are produce by Global Foundries and Samsung right? If so, will using standard library be detrimental in a new process?

I am thinking VEGA might be using custom libraries seems like they are using newer graphics ip 9.0 on it and some people have reported it might be the reason. So it seems like vega might be tweaked on the new process. All speculation but one can hope they are doing their best to get the best out of 14nm and they know what they need by now cuz I am sure they have had year to play around with it on Polaris.
 
I am thinking new process, correct me if I am wrong, I believe 480 chips are produce by Global Foundries and Samsung right? If so, will using standard library be detrimental in a new process?
I thought it was purely GF?

If it was the new process then they dodged at least that bullet.
 
I thought it was purely GF?

If it was the new process then they dodged at least that bullet.

I think you are right that it is GF, I think it was just a rumor since I am googling it. I really wish AMD could just ditch GF, feel like they have been nothing but trouble for AMD.
 
Hilarious how AMD is always so quick on social media when NV "supposedly" had issues, but are so quiet now. :D

I see mahigan is back to defend them in the mean time though.
 
Hilarious how AMD is always so quick on social media when NV "supposedly" had issues, but are so quiet now. :D

I see mahigan is back to defend them in the mean time though.

you know AMD actually responded to the thread on reditt the same day. It's kinda damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can't have it both ways. They said they are testing it and working with reviewers. you want them to come out and give a half assed answer? Will that satisfy you? I don't think this has anything to do with fanboy crap its just common sense.
 
you know AMD actually responded to the thread on reditt the same day. It's kinda damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can't have it both ways. They said they are testing it and working with reviewers. you want them to come out and give a half assed answer? Will that satisfy you? I don't think this has anything to do with fanboy crap its just common sense.
I think what would satisfy most would be a response on their official page over that useless subreddit
 
I think what would satisfy most would be a response on their official page over that useless subreddit
AMD officially responded, and announced "yes, it's broken, the fast memory is to blame, we will patch via a firmware update."

Prepape to have your cards neutered, RX 480 owners.
 
I see mahigan is back to defend them in the mean time though.

AMD has async compute. What further need is there of discussion? Everyone open their wallets and buy AMD cards now. And when you're done, buy some more. Because by this time next year Jen-Hsun will be shovelling fries at Carl's Jr.
 
It's tempting to go back over the 62 pages of this thread to see how many times Kyle was insulted and demeaned for telling the truth, here and elsewhere across the web. Anyone buying the reference RX480 in its first days on the market should have heeded this report. Kyle you're officially vindicated.

I wonder how many apologies Kyle has received :joyful:
 
I always believed Kyle because he had really zero motive to lie or distort the facts. I wasn't sure if he was going to be right on the money and to be honest i didn't expect him to be this accurate. It looks like his inside info is very legit and trust worthy:). Be nice if his source has good news coming sooner or latter lol
 
This thread garnered a lot of attention from the outside, not all of it good...
Those who know Kyle, knew he was telling the truth all a long...but some just cant accept the truth.
fortunately most of the trolls have gone back under their respective bridges. (AT)
 
More evidence supporting Kyle's position - AMD getting hosed just to be able to fab chips elsewhere

AMD, Globalfoundries Change Terms of Business Agreement

I don't think they are getting hosed this I think is a smart long term move. They want to be able to make chips elsewhere. I think they might be shifting performance parts to other fabs like desktop graphics chips and cpus, I think GF should be fine for mobility products and console products and there would be plenty of wafers for those. Also as someone said in other threads they just have to fulfill certain amount of wafers at GF and the payments are only if they don't fulfill their wafer requirements before they make chips at another fab. With upcoming consoles there should be plenty of chips to be made. They might be moving to samsung for their high end stuff.
 
I don't think they are getting hosed this I think is a smart long term move. They want to be able to make chips elsewhere. I think they might be shifting performance parts to other fabs like desktop graphics chips and cpus, I think GF should be fine for mobility products and console products and there would be plenty of wafers for those. Also as someone said in other threads they just have to fulfill certain amount of wafers at GF and the payments are only if they don't fulfill their wafer requirements before they make chips at another fab. With upcoming consoles there should be plenty of chips to be made. They might be moving to samsung for their high end stuff.

I do not know what getting hosed means, or what Kyle's position is, but AMD is getting a hard hit in money for this deal, at least to my uneducated ears. However, if this means less worthless shit GF chips, it's a lot better than having Zen and Vega sink cause of GF. Who knows, maybe TSMC can do production now. (Is there anything preventing TSMC doing AMD and Nvidia's chips now? Didn't AMD used to use TSMC? All I can think of is Apple's intense demand and large sway could force TSMC to decline orders from AMD, but I can't see Nvidia having that force to do so. Well, TSMC might be too full anyhow.)
 
I don't think they are getting hosed this I think is a smart long term move. They want to be able to make chips elsewhere. I think they might be shifting performance parts to other fabs like desktop graphics chips and cpus, I think GF should be fine for mobility products and console products and there would be plenty of wafers for those. Also as someone said in other threads they just have to fulfill certain amount of wafers at GF and the payments are only if they don't fulfill their wafer requirements before they make chips at another fab. With upcoming consoles there should be plenty of chips to be made. They might be moving to samsung for their high end stuff.

Yep to this. Has AMD been perfectly stellar in all their release in the last 5 years? Nope. Has Global Foundries done right by AMD over the last 5 years? Nope. Has a lot of the delays seem to come from the fact that Global Foundries is having constant issues with the processes? Yep. Yes, I am an AMD fan but, that does not change the fact that Global Foundries have not done well by AMD or at least particularly well by them for the last 5 years. Also, I guess why should they since they get a guaranteed payment regardless of whether their stuff is good or not?
 
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It would be funny if AMD modified there contract with GloFo so that AMD could make use of the foundry services that Intel is offering.
Would Intel sell wafers to AMD? Sure, why not? I hear business is a little slow at the fabs these days ...
Intel also has a vested interest in having AMD afloat.
1) It keeps the threat of being broken up for having a monopoly away
2) It cuts at nvidia who is eating into intel's HPC market
 
Intel also has a vested interest in having AMD afloat.
1) It keeps the threat of being broken up for having a monopoly away
2) It cuts at nvidia who is eating into intel's HPC market

I wonder how many companies Intel would be broken up into after an antitrust lawsuit if AMD died? If I were to guess there would be:

Intel desktop processors corporation.
Intel business processors corporation.
Intel fabs as this would definitely have to be removed from the main company. Could you imagine Intel desktop division being forced to use GloFlo because Intel fabs were making iPhone chips?
Intel IoT division where they think of new and exciting things for everyday life. Imagine if those guys could use PowerPC chips or Qualcomm in their designs.
Intel software.
Intel graphics.
Intel autonomous vehicles division.
etc.

It might actually be a good thing if AMD died. I'd love to see all these different companies from the former Intel corporation competing against each other. I wonder which would thrive and which would get swallowed up by a Google or Verizon style large corporation.
 
Intel also has a vested interest in having AMD afloat.
1) It keeps the threat of being broken up for having a monopoly away
2) It cuts at nvidia who is eating into intel's HPC market

Intel wouldn't have a monopoly on CPU's if AMD died. There is plenty of competition out there. I guess everyone forgets about ARM. X86 is only one of many. Intel would not be broken up.
 
I wonder how many companies Intel would be broken up into after an antitrust lawsuit if AMD died? If I were to guess there would be:

Intel desktop processors corporation.
Intel business processors corporation.
Intel fabs as this would definitely have to be removed from the main company. Could you imagine Intel desktop division being forced to use GloFlo because Intel fabs were making iPhone chips?
Intel IoT division where they think of new and exciting things for everyday life. Imagine if those guys could use PowerPC chips or Qualcomm in their designs.
Intel software.
Intel graphics.
Intel autonomous vehicles division.
etc.

It might actually be a good thing if AMD died. I'd love to see all these different companies from the former Intel corporation competing against each other. I wonder which would thrive and which would get swallowed up by a Google or Verizon style large corporation.

None. Sorry to disappoint you.
 
I wonder how many companies Intel would be broken up into after an antitrust lawsuit if AMD died? If I were to guess there would be:

Intel desktop processors corporation.
Intel business processors corporation.
Intel fabs as this would definitely have to be removed from the main company. Could you imagine Intel desktop division being forced to use GloFlo because Intel fabs were making iPhone chips?
Intel IoT division where they think of new and exciting things for everyday life. Imagine if those guys could use PowerPC chips or Qualcomm in their designs.
Intel software.
Intel graphics.
Intel autonomous vehicles division.
etc.

It might actually be a good thing if AMD died. I'd love to see all these different companies from the former Intel corporation competing against each other. I wonder which would thrive and which would get swallowed up by a Google or Verizon style large corporation.


IF AMD dies on it own accord, falls on its own sword so to speak, there is no antitrust which is what they have been doing as of late they are turning things around, have to see if their products can match up well enough though.
If Intel forces the market to enable the downfall of AMD that is the only way antitrust laws can be enforced.
 
More evidence supporting Kyle's position - AMD getting hosed just to be able to fab chips elsewhere

AMD, Globalfoundries Change Terms of Business Agreement

This has been known since they sold off the fab. They signed an agreement to buy certain amounts form GF. When their CPU sales number cratered in 2012, they had to pay for unused wafers.

AMD Reports Q1 Loss on GlobalFoundries Charge


So AMD moved their GPUs to GF so this wouldn't happen again. But it sounds like they're still having supply problems with full RX 480, as the 8GB models are still priced the same or higher than the GTX 1060.

AMD would rather take the charge now than find themselves stuck on GF for more years. If they sever the relationship now, it costs a whole lot less than taking a charge for unused capacity (like they did in 2012). I was amazed they didn't do this back then, if this was an option?
 
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it wasn't an option before GF locked AMD in to using their fabs for certain capacity.
 
So AMD moved their GPUs to GF so this wouldn't happen again. But it sounds like they're still having supply problems with full RX 480, as they're still priced higher than the GTX 1060.


I posted awhile back (can't find it) about how one retailer released sales figures showing the individual 10-series cards each obliterating the RX 480 in total sales. The latest Steam Hardware survey seems to show the GTX 1060 selling in a 3:2 ratio to the 480. Based on the 480's general unavailability I'd say that GloFo is the reason. They just can't make enough cards. Even now with more availability the cheapest 8GB 480s are $270 on Newegg, a nice markup over the supposed $229/$239 MSRP. The cheapest 1060s are still $250 and a more compelling product unless you value that extra 2GB of RAM.
 
Intel wouldn't have a monopoly on CPU's if AMD died. There is plenty of competition out there. I guess everyone forgets about ARM. X86 is only one of many. Intel would not be broken up.
Intel has already lost cases relating to their market dominance and they are fighting an EU antitrust case right now. Intel won't have a total monopoly, but at least in the consumer and server space they will have a functional monopoly.

cageymaru said:
it might actually be a good thing if AMD died. I'd love to see all these different companies from the former Intel corporation competing against each other. I wonder which would thrive and which would get swallowed up by a Google or Verizon style large corporation.

Hard to say, the only other monopoly I can think of being broken up is the bell telephone system and that had mixed results.
 
yeah very few companies have been broken up, standard oil, at&t are the only ones I can think of.
 
Intel has already lost cases relating to their market dominance and they are fighting an EU antitrust case right now.

An old antitrust appeal you mean.

AMD haven't served a purpose in relation to competition for many years now. They have about the same influence as VIA or one of the other smaller x86 makers. The lack of companies willing to compete has to do with the cost of doing so. Its a lose/lose scenario, both for companies and the consumer.

ARM manufactoring companies are also falling of left and right in their consolidation until you see very few, if not 1 left. At least for the higher parts.

People tend to forget that these companies dont sell tap water. But they sell a product with ever spiraling costs that keeps increasing. And when volume doesn't follow in the same rate, or even decline. Then its not so much fun.
 
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An old antitrust appeal you mean.

I mean this one which as far as I can tell has not yet been resolved
Intel Fights Record $1.2 Billion Antitrust Fine at Top EU Court



AMD haven't served a purpose in relation to competition for many years now. They have about the same influence as VIA or one of the other smaller x86 makers. The lack of companies willing to compete has to do with the cost of doing so. Its a lose/lose scenario, both for companies and the consumer.
Yes, I think we all agree that bulldozer was a flop. My point from earlier is that intel would rather AMD be alive and competing so that intel can point to them in any antitrust suites that come up. With zen AMD may be back to competition on the CPU front.
 
I mean this one which as far as I can tell has not yet been resolved
Intel Fights Record $1.2 Billion Antitrust Fine at Top EU Court

They paid it in 2009. Its just the appeal. Your article says this as well.


Yes, I think we all agree that bulldozer was a flop. My point from earlier is that intel would rather AMD be alive and competing so that intel can point to them in any antitrust suites that come up. With zen AMD may be back to competition on the CPU front.

Nobody is going to keep AMD alive. They serve no purpose in that regard. There is plenty of competition from ARM alone if you absolutely need it as other companies.

And good luck with Zen. ;)

You know, we haven't had cheaper CPUs the last 10 years after AMD became irrelevant. Consider that for a moment.

Remember the semiconductor industry, unlike most others, depends on vast amounts of cash flows to stay running. Competition as such is entirely pointless in this segment because its self regulating. No innovation or too high prices both leads to the bankrupt of the producing company. Welcome to dynamic demand.
 
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They paid it in 2009. Its just the appeal. Your article says this as well.
Is it not an ongoing legal issue for intel?



Nobody is going to keep AMD alive. They serve no purpose in that regard. There is plenty of competition from ARM alone if you absolutely need it as other companies.
Agreed. Nobody is going to keep AMD alive; intel would simply prefer that AMD stay alive. ARM chips have been bringing the heat to intel lately, but for some reason they don't show up in desktops or laptops very often.


You know, we haven't had cheaper CPUs the last 10 years after AMD became irrelevant. Consider that for a moment.
Can you clarify this? I can buy a full computer for $5 today which I could not do 10 years ago.


Remember the semiconductor industry, unlike most others, depends on vast amounts of cash flows to stay running. Competition as such is entirely pointless in this segment because its self regulating. No innovation or too high prices both leads to the bankrupt of the producing company. Welcome to dynamic demand.
All companies depend on cash flow to stay running and the chip business is no more self regulating than any other.[/QUOTE]
 
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