No More Pirated Games In Two Years

[Darunion]

You are delusional. Piracy is stealing. You are taking an item that costs money, and you are not paying for it. Your playing the game, but the developer isn't getting paid. Do you think they make games as charity?

It's unfortunate that games cost more in your particular region, but tough shit. Pay MSRP for the convenience of Steam refunds on things you end up not liking, pay grey market prices to save money, or else don't play the game.

I really can't stand the people that justify their stealing. Arguing semantics isn't a legal defense. If I refuse to pay the babysitter, I may not be 'stealing' from her but I am utilizing a service without paying for it.

I used to pirate when I was young but when I started to work in the field and realize how quickly people get laid off when sales aren't as expected, it shows you the other side of that coin.

If things aren't 'worth' the price to someone, it doesn't give you the right to just take it anyways. And honestly, games are due for a price increase. Games need more staff than before but price doesn't change. I think DLC is probably the industry trying to raise the prices without causing a huge wave by increasing base price.

 

[nutzo]

You are delusional. Piracy is stealing. You are taking an item that costs money, and you are not paying for it. Your playing the game, but the developer isn't getting paid. Do you think they make games as charity?

It's unfortunate that games cost more in your particular region, but tough shit. Pay MSRP for the convenience of Steam refunds on things you end up not liking, pay grey market prices to save money, or else don't play the game.

No, it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement. There is a legal difference.

Someone who pirates a game it not stealing a physical item that costs money to produce, they are making a copy of an existing item that adds no additional costs to the producer of the product.

 

[nutzo]

I understand what you are saying, but there are some clear differences between the music and video game industry that are worth considering. The biggest is something you pointed out... Spotify, and the large amount of other subscription services like it. That basically dominates the music industry right now. Almost everyone I know uses these, whether it be their free or paid variants. The bottom line is that in today's music industry, it is incredibly cheap to be able to listen to whatever you want, whenever you want, without having to actually purchase specific items. Even the last sentence in your post suggests that Spotify and Tidal have as much to do with your lack of music purchases as does giving up piracy. There really isn't a need to pirate music anymore. Pay the $10 a month and have it all. Anything less is just being a cheap asshole. The same can be said for movies and TV. Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon are bringing tons of great TV at a very affordable cost. They are much more select than streaming music, but it's still a means for people to get a wealth of entertainment at a low price without having to resort to piracy.

I think the video game industry is part of the way there.
Look at Xbox Live Gold and the free game(s) every month. I can usually buy a year subscription for less than $50. Yes, they are mainly older games, but combined with an cheap Xbox 360, there's a lot of game play for cheap.
I wish they would expanded the selection, instead of only the single game. It would be great if they gave me a list of 2 or 3 games and let me choose the one I want. An occasional family or party type game would be nice instead of just FPS's every month.

 

[Viper87227]

No, it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement. There is a legal difference.

Someone who pirates a game it not stealing a physical item that costs money to produce, they are making a copy of an existing item that adds no additional costs to the producer of the product.

steal - stēl - verb
gerund or present participle: stealing
1.take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.



What part of that isn't covered by piracy. That game is someone else's property. It doesn't matter that it's digital or on a disk. It's their property. You are taking it when you don't have the right to. That's theft.

 

[Deleted whining member 223597]

No, it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement. There is a legal difference.

Someone who pirates a game it not stealing a physical item that costs money to produce, they are making a copy of an existing item that adds no additional costs to the producer of the product.

When you have to use that as an argument, you know you've already lost.

 

[Viper87227]

I think the video game industry is part of the way there.
Look at Xbox Live Gold and the free game(s) every month. I can usually buy a year subscription for less than $50. Yes, they are mainly older games, but combined with an cheap Xbox 360, there's a lot of game play for cheap.
I wish they would expanded the selection, instead of only the single game. It would be great if they gave me a list of 2 or 3 games and let me choose the one I want. An occasional family or party type game would be nice instead of just FPS's every month.

The free games every month is certainly a small step in the right direction, but I wouldn't call it comparable. Like you say, there is no element of choice. Something closer would be Playstation Now, which is overpriced IMO, and I'm not sold on the idea of streaming games over the internet. Also, I don't know of something comparable to either on PC, which is where piracy is most prevalent for video games. The closest thing would probably be humble subscription, but that's a little different, it's more like just paying a low price up front for mystery games. They aren't "rentals" like games with gold and PS+.

I think we're a long way off from seeing a $50/mo play everything, own nothing Steam subscription.. which would be the closest thing to $10/mo for unlimited music or $8/mo for Netflix and company. I'm not sure something like that would even work with video games.

 

[Darunion]

No, it's not stealing, it's copyright infringement. There is a legal difference.

Someone who pirates a game it not stealing a physical item that costs money to produce, they are making a copy of an existing item that adds no additional costs to the producer of the product.

Do something with your life that would require customers to purchase your work for you to be paid (ie software developer, music writer, author, movie production) and watch as thousands of people who did not pay for your work are enjoying it. And their only argument is "well it doesn't hurt you or you priced it too much for me so I wasn't going to buy it anyways". Idiots like that are the problem, they aren't some kind of white knight trying to help the industry, they are cheap asses that grew up feeling entitled to everything in life.

 

[nilepez]

You know, because I had to use cracks and other shit on games that I bought with money because of stupid DRM?



Sorry, but pirating ain't stealing. We are talking semantics here.



You are american, right?

Go check the prices for EU customers... then see how many people here buy their games from Steam on day 1. Meaning... we can't get refunds because we do not buy directly from Steam.

And also, piracy doesn't harm anyone. And it ain't stealing.

It is stealing.
If you don't like the price, wait! One doesn't have to have GTAV the day it comes out. The price went down 50%, on some sites, by September. By June, it'll probably be 20 bucks. Do you at least buy all your pirated games once they go on sale at half off?

Probably not, because why buy a game you got for free?

 

[Revdarian]

Actually since the law does have a difference between what is stealing and what is copyright infringement he is technically correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo

No matter how many times you say "nu-huh" the law agrees with him, he isn't saying (i think) that it is right, just that it isn't stealing.

Now going to the extreme of saying that it doesn't harm anyone is a tall order, and imho wrong.

 

[H-street]

Actually since the law does have a difference between what is stealing and what is copyright infringement he is technically correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo

No matter how many times you say "nu-huh" the law agrees with him, he isn't saying (i think) that it is right, just that it isn't stealing.

Now going to the extreme of saying that it doesn't harm anyone is a tall order, and imho wrong.

Its a thinly veiled rationalization in that somehow makes those that "Copyright Infringe" feel better about themselves because nobody wants to be labeled as a Thief..

But lets be honest.. as far as being Honest and Right and Wrong goes, its the same thing

 

[alxlwson]

The free games every month is certainly a small step in the right direction, but I wouldn't call it comparable. Like you say, there is no element of choice. Something closer would be Playstation Now, which is overpriced IMO, and I'm not sold on the idea of streaming games over the internet. Also, I don't know of something comparable to either on PC, which is where piracy is most prevalent for video games. The closest thing would probably be humble subscription, but that's a little different, it's more like just paying a low price up front for mystery games. They aren't "rentals" like games with gold and PS+.

I think we're a long way off from seeing a $50/mo play everything, own nothing Steam subscription.. which would be the closest thing to $10/mo for unlimited music or $8/mo for Netflix and company. I'm not sure something like that would even work with video games.

EA has a monthly subscription model

 

[Staples]

Now that everything is doing online checks, I am sure cracking them is becoming increasingly difficult.

 

[Viper87227]

EA has a monthly subscription model

I'm aware, and I actually originally mentioned it and then decided to remove it before posting. My argument against it is almost verbatim to that of PS+/Gold games. It's an exceptionally small sample of hand chosen games, and it's only available on one gaming console at that.

Cagey was making the argument that heavily combating piracy may have led to a decline in individual music sales because it would be more costly/risky to try and discover new music, and that the notion of taking lots of music for free and then buying the good stuff was actually good for business. My counter was that this probably had less to do with combating piracy (at least for most people, maybe not specifically him) and more to do with the fact that the vast majority of people can almost entirely replace the need to buy music for the very low cost of $10 a month. To a lesser extent, the same can be said for film. Millions of people are no longer subscribing to costly cable or buying individual movies because Netflix and the like have more than enough content for your average TV/Movie viewer.

In the context of that argument, EA Access is basically non-existent. Nobody is going to stop buying individual video games because their needs are thoroughly met via the 14 (substantially delayed) titles sitting behind EA's $5 a month subscription. For some, it might be a nice accessory to purchasing individual video games, but I cannot see it as being a substitute to it for anyone.

To bring us back to the original discussion on piracy... my whole point is that I don't think the decline in purchasing individual music/music/television has much to do with the war on piracy. Likewise, I don't think a steep decline in gaming piracy will cause individual game sales to decline with it. In a world where neither piracy nor a monthly subscription gets you access to a large catalog of video games, there becomes only one option: pay up like the rest of us, or don't play.

 

[__hollywood|meow]

That game is someone else's property. It doesn't matter that it's digital or on a disk.

actually, it does. im not defending piracy at all, nor do i even use warez (who cares anyway), but theft removes the original object, depriving the owner of it. imagine your car is stolen but its still there in the morning...

intellectual property works a little bit differently, but theres still no technologically modern legal precedent to back up your claim. IP focuses on distribution & licensing, since IP is by definition potentially intangible. your games arent actually yours. you dont own a copy of the data that comprises the game. you own a license that grants you permission by the IP owner to store one copy of this data on a device that you own, & use it. the illegal part comes into play here, & only here: using a keygen to crack the game generates a counterfeit license.

it isnt stealing, it isnt theft. im not playing word games, nor is this simply arguing semantics or rationalizing (& ive proven so by clearly delineating my point above). if youre going to argue that ethically its wrong...thats another thing entirely. just say that you consider it ethically wrong. dont misuse words - speak clearly & accurately.

 

[SolidState]

I don't pay big money for games anymore because game devs are lazy as hell and release unfinished junk for 60 dollars.

Bethesda is like an ex wife with big tits, fat ass, and a cute face. She has cheated on me time and time again, but that ***** game ridiculous. She's not worth my 60 dollars when she wants me. She's worth my 30 dollars when I want her.

 

[Viper87227]

actually, it does. im not defending piracy at all, nor do i even use warez (who cares anyway), but theft removes the original object, depriving the owner of it. imagine your car is stolen but its still there in the morning...

intellectual property works a little bit differently, but theres still no technologically modern legal precedent to back up your claim. IP focuses on distribution & licensing, since IP is by definition potentially intangible. your games arent actually yours. you dont own a copy of the data that comprises the game. you own a license that grants you permission by the IP owner to store one copy of this data on a device that you own, & use it. the illegal part comes into play here, & only here: using a keygen to crack the game generates a counterfeit license.

I'm far from a legal expert on copyright, digital goods, etc. but I'd be inclined to disagree with your last statement. Using a keygen to crack the game isn't the only illegal part of piracy. Has anyone ever been sued for using a keygen? I'm not going to bother to Google it, but I'm guessing not. Don't piracy lawsuits specifically target the notion that by seeding a torrent, and uploading pieces of a given item to other people, you are essentially illegally distributing the game? The No Electronic Theft Act, a federal law, states that it is a federal crime to reproduce, distribute, or share copies of electronic copyrighted works. When discussing the legal issues of piracy, I think that trumps generating a counterfeit license. It's like buying a music CD and burning 10 copies for all your friends. That's illegal... and not because your generating a counterfoil license.

it isnt stealing, it isnt theft. im not playing word games, nor is this simply arguing semantics or rationalizing (& ive proven so by clearly delineating my point above). if youre going to argue that ethically its wrong...thats another thing entirely. just say that you consider it ethically wrong. dont misuse words - speak clearly & accurately.

Fine. Fair point. No, piracy is not stealing in the sense that you aren't removing a physical good from someone else's possession. So, from a legal, technical standpoint, you're correct. When we're discussing things like effect on the industry, damage to the publisher/developer, ethics, etc. I'd say its say it's a level playing field. Either way, you are taking the game, and the people who made it aren't being paid. When people defend piracy with "piracy isn't theft" they generally aren't trying to start a legal debate, they are using it to justify their actions, remove guilt, etc... and that's crap.

 

[alxlwson]

actually, it does. im not defending piracy at all, nor do i even use warez (who cares anyway), but theft removes the original object, depriving the owner of it. imagine your car is stolen but its still there in the morning...

intellectual property works a little bit differently, but theres still no technologically modern legal precedent to back up your claim. IP focuses on distribution & licensing, since IP is by definition potentially intangible. your games arent actually yours. you dont own a copy of the data that comprises the game. you own a license that grants you permission by the IP owner to store one copy of this data on a device that you own, & use it. the illegal part comes into play here, & only here: using a keygen to crack the game generates a counterfeit license.

it isnt stealing, it isnt theft. im not playing word games, nor is this simply arguing semantics or rationalizing (& ive proven so by clearly delineating my point above). if youre going to argue that ethically its wrong...thats another thing entirely. just say that you consider it ethically wrong. dont misuse words - speak clearly & accurately.

Lol.
Dude, you are using a SERVICE or GOOD that you didn't pay for, in which the owner requires payment for. That is theft. You are depriving the producer of a product the money they are rightfully owed for the use of a product that they charge for. That is theft.

 

[alxlwson]

Theft of services is the legal term for a crime which is committed when a person obtains valuable services — as opposed to goods — by deception, force, threat or other unlawful means, i.e., without lawfully compensating the provider for these services

 

[M76]

Lol.
Dude, you are using a SERVICE or GOOD that you didn't pay for, in which the owner requires payment for. That is theft. You are depriving the producer of a product the money they are rightfully owed for the use of a product that they charge for. That is theft.

Imagine building a replica Ferrari. Is that theft? Of course not. Stealing implies that you remove something from someone's possession without permission.

A stolen object always creates a void in it's place.

 

[MrCrispy]

2 points -

1. There are DRM schemes that are decades old that still haven't been cracked
2. Pirating a digital game isn't theft, its copyright infringement

#2 is something everyone has a really hard time understanding when its a pretty clear distinction. Ironically the punishment for a copyright crime is higher than a violent assault

 

[__hollywood|meow]

You are depriving the producer of a product the money they are rightfully owed for the use of a product that they charge for. That is theft.

thats not true, & ive already clearly explained why that isnt the case.

Has anyone ever been sued for using a keygen? I'm not going to bother to Google it, but I'm guessing not.

cos prosecution of that charge (counterfeit license) requires confiscation of the persons computer, which requires an investigation & probably a raid with a warrant. its much easier to hassle ISPs for traffic info from public torrent trackers. the copyright hawk media giants dont want to bother with lengthy legal proceedings, they want to publicly crucify a few folks to make an example of them, then threaten legal action against everyone they catch seeding & get them to settle out of court, paying arbitrarily calculated fees.

No Electronic Theft Act, a federal law, states that it is a federal crime to reproduce, distribute, or share copies of electronic copyrighted works.

that law was spearheaded, well, more like bludgeoned through, by massive lobbying pressure by media conglomerates in the 90s when filesharing was threatening the RIAAs antiquated business model. it did not "update" the law to become technologically modernized. it changed the meaning of copyright infringement re: IP entirely to directly address why the RIAA had lost a huge filesharing case immediately prior. before, an agreeably out-of-date version criminalized willful infringement for commercial advantage or private financial gain. however, afterwards, the very definition of financial gain was changed to include the receipt of anything of value which is absurd

tl;dr if youre citing that law im not going to side with your position purely due to the corrupt nature of its crafting & subsequent passage

When people defend piracy with "piracy isn't theft" they generally aren't trying to start a legal debate, they are using it to justify their actions, remove guilt, etc... and that's crap.

ill agree with you there, but im not even looking at it from a purely legal standpoint (although i could argue law all day)

 

[alxlwson]

Imagine building a replica Ferrari. Is that theft? Of course not. Stealing implies that you remove something from someone's possession without permission.

A stolen object always creates a void in it's place.

What on earth... That is nowhere the same thing.

So, using a credit card that doesn't belong to you is only theft if the owner of the card decides to pay the bill for the amount that charged to the card? Prior to the owner paying the bill, there hasn't been a void created in the owners checkbook.

 

[alxlwson]

2 points -

1. There are DRM schemes that are decades old that still haven't been cracked
2. Pirating a digital game isn't theft, its copyright infringement

#2 is something everyone has a really hard time understanding when its a pretty clear distinction. Ironically the punishment for a copyright crime is higher than a violent assault

Distributing the game is the copyright infringement. Using the game is theft.

 

[rabidz7]

I pirate games with excess DRM.

 

[c3141hf]

Lol.
Dude, you are using a SERVICE or GOOD that you didn't pay for, in which the owner requires payment for. That is theft. You are depriving the producer of a product the money they are rightfully owed for the use of a product that they charge for. That is theft.

There is no such thing as a right to make a profit; only the right to sell a product on the open market. And if you do well, you make a profit from selling on the free market. But you aren't entitled to sales and you aren't entitled to shut down your competition using violence.

 

[c3141hf]

I remember watching a while ago about how Just Cause 3 was programmed. They flat-out stated that a lot of the graphics processing for the explosions and effects actually takes place remotely. They're outsourcing your GPU's job. So you have to be online for this stupid single player game to work properly. It really doesn't surprise me that such a stupidly designed application is hard to make playable without constant server authentication checks.

You don't have to be online. It works fine offline.

 

[boss99]

I stopped pirating when I really started learning about NetSec, and also when I learned that if you wait long enough, steam will sell a game that will actually reach my threshold of what I would spend. Competition in the marketplace for both vendors and content makers is a good thing.

 

[alxlwson]

There is no such thing as a right to make a profit; only the right to sell a product on the open market. And if you do well, you make a profit from selling on the free market. But you aren't entitled to sales and you aren't entitled to shut down your competition using violence.

No, but you are entitled to money from your products. Nobody has a right to your product without paying you for it.

 

[c3141hf]

No, but you are entitled to money from your products. Nobody has a right to your product without paying you for it.

But since you can't own an idea, you can't really claim it as "your product".

Theft is, by definition, the intentional and/or fraudulent taking of the personal property of another with the intent to convert it to the taker's use. Copying simply does not fall under that definition (See also : Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985)).

 

[alxlwson]

But since you can't own an idea, you can't really claim it as "your product".

Theft is, by definition, the intentional and/or fraudulent taking of the personal property of another with the intent to convert it to the taker's use. Copying simply does not fall under that definition (See also : Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985)).

We aren't talking about an "idea". We are talking about a finished product. A video game, book, movie, newspaper, model rocket, whatever, are not ideas. They start as an idea, and then have a finished product.
You emphasize "personal". So are you insinuating that exludes corporations?
As I mentioned previously, copying isn't the theft. It's the intentional consumption of goods or services to which you have no rights to consume. That means reading a magazine in the store instead of buying it, torrenting a book that you didn't purchase and isn't available for free from the copyright owner, or downloading a game and using it without paying for it.

Those things are all theft. You have taken or consumed something that you have not paid for.

 

[c3141hf]

We aren't talking about an "idea". We are talking about a finished product. A video game, book, movie, newspaper, model rocket, whatever, are not ideas. They start as an idea, and then have a finished product.
You emphasize "personal". So are you insinuating that exludes corporations?
As I mentioned previously, copying isn't the theft. It's the intentional consumption of goods or services to which you have no rights to consume. That means reading a magazine in the store instead of buying it, torrenting a book that you didn't purchase and isn't available for free from the copyright owner, or downloading a game and using it without paying for it.

Those things are all theft. You have taken or consumed something that you have not paid for.

Personal property is a legal term that means all property that is not real property (e.g. land). It has nothing to do with who owns it. You should buy a copy of Black's Law Dictionary.

Also, I recommend studying this :
http://www.crimesanddefenses.com/SilverBullets4.html

 

[__hollywood|meow]

damicatz theres no point trying to debate him; hes clearly not interested in intellectual discourse. just wants to say "its theft" over & over. no persuasive argumentation is gonna change his mind, its already made up

 

[Deleted whining member 223597]

damicatz theres no point trying to debate him; hes clearly not interested in intellectual discourse. just wants to say "its theft" over & over. no persuasive argumentation is gonna change his mind, its already made up

Whatever you want to call it, theft or copyright infringement, someone still isn't getting paid for their product.

 

[alxlwson]

damicatz theres no point trying to debate him; hes clearly not interested in intellectual discourse. just wants to say "its theft" over & over. no persuasive argumentation is gonna change his mind, its already made up

Nobody has provided any logical argumentation that can change my mind. You're not going to convince me that using something that someone else created without paying for it, isn't theft.

Also, you can shove your intellectual discourse up your own ass. Your attempt of intelligent belittling is poor at best.

Familiar with this? No? Work the argument out in it.

 

[Snowdog]

Nobody has provided any logical argumentation that can change my mind. You're not going to convince me that using something that someone else created without paying for it, isn't theft.

The reality is that copyright is a artificial construct.

Before copyright, stories and songs (AKA content) were shared and improved at will, they became part of culture. There is no theft in sharing stories and songs.

Calling it theft, just means you have just been brainwashed by corporations into towing their line for them.

Congratulations on being duped by corporations into doing their bidding.

 

[Viper87227]

The reality is that copyright is a artificial construct.

Before copyright, stories and songs (AKA content) were shared and improved at will, they became part of culture. There is no theft in sharing stories and songs.

Calling it theft, just means you have just been brainwashed by corporations into towing their line for them.

Congratulations on being duped by corporations into doing their bidding.

Am I missing something, or are you really saying the only difference between professionally recorded music and campfire stores is nothing more than being "brainwashed"?

 

[Snowdog]

Am I missing something, or are you really saying the only difference between professionally recorded music and campfire stores is nothing more than being "brainwashed"?

No.

I am saying a copyright violation is not theft.

 

[alxlwson]

The reality is that copyright is a artificial construct.

Before copyright, stories and songs (AKA content) were shared and improved at will, they became part of culture. There is no theft in sharing stories and songs.

Calling it theft, just means you have just been brainwashed by corporations into towing their line for them.

Congratulations on being duped by corporations into doing their bidding.

Lmao.

 

[nilepez]

The reality is that copyright is a artificial construct.

Before copyright, stories and songs (AKA content) were shared and improved at will, they became part of culture. There is no theft in sharing stories and songs.

Calling it theft, just means you have just been brainwashed by corporations into towing their line for them.

Congratulations on being duped by corporations into doing their bidding.

So a movie that cost millions (perhaps hundreds of millions) to create is just a part of our culture?

 

[__hollywood|meow]

You're not going to convince me that using something that someone else created without paying for it, isn't theft. Also, you can shove your intellectual discourse up your own ass.

your statements even on the previous page contradict your own points made on this one. ive already clearly delineated why it isnt theft. you refuse to address any point ive made (& ive been crystal clear) since you dont have any rational point, just a knee jerk ethical objection.

literally the only reason sharing copied data of any IP is illegal is cos of corrupt lobbying by media conglomerates who for all practical purposes wrote the law in order to extort money from the public at large when their antediluvian business practices were threatened by the very existence of the internet. cry some more.