Humans Are Slamming Into Driverless Cars and Exposing A Key Flaw

[HardOCP News]

This will no longer be an issue once robots have eliminated the entire human population. No human drivers, no problem.

They obey the law all the time, as in, without exception. This may sound like the right way to program a robot to drive a car, but good luck trying to merge onto a chaotic, jam-packed highway with traffic flying along well above the speed limit. It tends not to work out well. As the accidents have piled up -- all minor scrape-ups for now -- the arguments among programmers at places like Google Inc. and Carnegie Mellon University are heating up: Should they teach the cars how to commit infractions from time to time to stay out of trouble?

 

[lcpiper]

"Merging onto a jam-packed highway"?

What happened to "a top speed of 25 MPH", and "restricted to roads with speed limits not greater then 35MPH"?

Or is this just the reporters hyperbole?

 

[pigpen]

I would love to get into the passenger seat of my car in the morning with a coffee, something to read, and space out for 20 mins. End up in front of my work. Make all cars driver-less. Way too many assholes behind the wheel nowadays.

 

[bomni]

Haa Haa, the key flaw being technology isn't smart enough to adapt to their surroundings. They still need people to "push them forward" so to speak.

 

[lcpiper]

He didn’t issue a ticket -- who would he give it to? -- but he warned the two engineers on board about creating a hazard.

For company owned vehicles, the owning business is responsible for the operator's driving errors, Google would get the ticket, the writer is a dumbass.

 

[mtrupi]

We need intelligent machines. Intellectually and emotionally intelligent. They need to adapt based on who and what they are facing. Oh, and once we have machines that can do that will they become self aware?

 

[Kaitian]

So add a freeway right-lane bias to these cars?

 

[locsplitter]

I would love to get into the passenger seat of my car in the morning with a coffee, something to read, and space out for 20 mins. End up in front of my work. Make all cars driver-less. Way too many assholes behind the wheel nowadays.

No.

 

[XiP]

This technology is still in its infancy and has a long way to go...

 

[lcpiper]

I would love to get into the passenger seat of my car in the morning with a coffee, something to read, and space out for 20 mins. End up in front of my work. Make all cars driver-less. Way too many assholes behind the wheel nowadays.

I love opening the garage door with a remote from my computer room as I put my phone in my pocket and kiss the wife goodbye, hit the remote start on my key-fob, walk into the garage hearing the low burble of the 5.7Liter Hemi, put on my shoes, get into the Challenger feeling the high soft bucket seats and leather steering wheel. Making a nice spirited 15 minute drive into work speeding slightly when needed in order to avoid getting caught up in the sheeple, punching it a little through the corners, a little roar from the engine, sharp shifts from the 8-Speed Automatic Transmission that never seems to lug the engine ever. Only problem I have are drivers that won't get out of the passing lane, and drive side by side with people right next to them, in the lane that they themselves should be in.

Way too many assholes behind the wheel nowadays.

 

[lcpiper]

We need intelligent machines. Intellectually and emotionally intelligent. They need to adapt based on who and what they are facing. Oh, and once we have machines that can do that will they become self aware?

Look OUT ! The toaster is road-ragin!

 

[oROEchimaru]

do the cars have souls? I joined the railroad and now I'm not sure how to move forward in my life.

 

[westrock2000]

The problem here is the car being restricted by an arbitrary speed limit.

In the future, the cars would auto negotiate speed. But for now there is a conundrum of a real speed, versus the imposed speed.

 

[Ur_Mom]

They need to adapt. If everyone is going 5 MPH over, you should follow suit to not cause an accident. If you need to break a traffic rule to avoid an accident, you do it. If someone else breaks the law and makes the roadway unsafe, and you need to adjust (and break the rules) to avoid that unsafe area, you do it.

Sometimes, rules need to be broken to avoid/not cause an accident.

 

[cyclone3d]

I would love to get into the passenger seat of my car in the morning with a coffee, something to read, and space out for 20 mins. End up in front of my work. Make all cars driver-less. Way too many assholes behind the wheel nowadays.

So what happens if some psycho starts shooting at all the self driving cars? Are they going to avoid or stop or do anything at all besides keep driving unless some critical system gets taken out?

What about a passenger in one of these cars doing the shooting? The other cars would just keep going along at their set pace and the shooter would have a very easy time of taking people out.

Or what about something even worse?

No way to know how/what to avoid.

Sounds like a great idea.

And having self driving road vehicles will not effectively work unless it is done all at once. Even with a single vehicle with a human driver and all the rest being self driven could turn into a huge mess.

 

[Ordeith]

They are exposing how ridiculous the rules actually are. Especially speed limits.

 

[lcpiper]

So add a freeway right-lane bias to these cars?

Why, one of the problems the cars have is that they "drive by rote", they follow the rules and can't read the situation. The entire approach that these automakers are taking is wrong. They shouldn't be trying to make machines capable of doing what humans do, they should be trying to make machines do what machines do.

Imagine a highway full of driverless cars all networked and talking to each other, steadily and relentlessly ordering themselves as a group. Organizing themselves and their place in the pack based on destinations, who has to get off on the exit ramp next, who will need to get off three exits down for a juice up at the "pump". Ooops, the passenger needs to go number 1, NOW !, the car signals it's need and all the others adjust smoothly and without complaint. The cars shouldn't be navigating as individuals but as members of the herd.

In the following example from this article;

Last year, Rajkumar offered test drives to members of Congress in his lab’s self-driving Cadillac SRX sport utility vehicle. The Caddy performed perfectly, except when it had to merge onto I-395 South and swing across three lanes of traffic in 150 yards (137 meters) to head toward the Pentagon. The car’s cameras and laser sensors detected traffic in a 360-degree view but didn’t know how to trust that drivers would make room in the ceaseless flow, so the human minder had to take control to complete the maneuver.

In my thinking, before the Cadi even left the on-ramp all of the cars on the road would know that the Cadi's destination would require it to traverse the lanes to the near exit and it's way across would have been perfectly choreographed and orchestrated without any concern. The cars would all know that in that area of the roadway there can be some who need to traverse that crossing so they would already be spaced and positioned in order to easily allow another through and across the lanes.

But to do this, all cars need to be networked and autonomous. Eventually this might be where we are headed and what they are doing now might be how we have to get there. But I have a hard time thinking that I will ever want to give up my Challenger and the fun of driving.

 

[TwiceOver]

Remember the movie I Robot... That's how I imagine things will be. Once the human drivers are taken out of the equation and all vehicles can communicate with each other, driving will be the safest form of transportation.

 

[lcpiper]

They are exposing how ridiculous the rules actually are. Especially speed limits.

There are experiments in Europe where they have abolished all most all driving laws that regulate speed limits, intersections, etc. What they are learning is that drivers learn to drive more politely, safer, and with fewer accidents. Or at least that was my understanding the last I read about it.

 

[GotNoRice]

In the real world, there is no such thing as "merging", only "me first".

 

[GotNoRice]

a chaotic, jam-packed highway with traffic flying along well above the speed limit.[/I]

If traffic is "flying along well above the speed limit", how "jam-packed" could the highway really be? Anyone who actually commutes in this fashion knows that "jam-packed" = slow, if not stop and go.

 

[sfsuphysics]

They are exposing how ridiculous the rules actually are. Especially speed limits.

Just because people break the rules doesn't mean the rules are ridiculous

 

[dmonkey]

We need intelligent machines. Intellectually and emotionally intelligent. They need to adapt based on who and what they are facing. Oh, and once we have machines that can do that will they become self aware?

No, and no.

Why, one of the problems the cars have is that they "drive by rote", they follow the rules and can't read the situation. The entire approach that these automakers are taking is wrong. They shouldn't be trying to make machines capable of doing what humans do, they should be trying to make machines do what machines do.

Imagine a highway full of driverless cars all networked and talking to each other, steadily and relentlessly ordering themselves as a group. Organizing themselves and their place in the pack based on destinations, who has to get off on the exit ramp next, who will need to get off three exits down for a juice up at the "pump". Ooops, the passenger needs to go number 1, NOW !, the car signals it's need and all the others adjust smoothly and without complaint. The cars shouldn't be navigating as individuals but as members of the herd.

In the following example from this article;


In my thinking, before the Cadi even left the on-ramp all of the cars on the road would know that the Cadi's destination would require it to traverse the lanes to the near exit and it's way across would have been perfectly choreographed and orchestrated without any concern. The cars would all know that in that area of the roadway there can be some who need to traverse that crossing so they would already be spaced and positioned in order to easily allow another through and across the lanes.

But to do this, all cars need to be networked and autonomous. Eventually this might be where we are headed and what they are doing now might be how we have to get there. But I have a hard time thinking that I will ever want to give up my Challenger and the fun of driving.

This is the end-game, but they need to get their foot in the door first with cars that can handle some basic stuff, even if that means they have to road test with human obstacles present.

There are experiments in Europe where they have abolished all most all driving laws that regulate speed limits, intersections, etc. What they are learning is that drivers learn to drive more politely, safer, and with fewer accidents. Or at least that was my understanding the last I read about it.

What works in Europe wouldn't necessarily work in the US. Most countries over there still aren't multicultural and multi-"ethnic" yet, but give it a few decades.

 

[lcpiper]

The problem here is the car being restricted by an arbitrary speed limit.

In the future, the cars would auto negotiate speed. But for now there is a conundrum of a real speed, versus the imposed speed.

Ho Hum, How do you call it an "arbitrary" speed limit when a group of engineers have determined safe speeds given the road topography and traffic patterns of the area?

The setting of speed limits is anything but arbitrary with some deviations, for instance a city that adjusts a speed limit or the location of a posted sign in order to create a speed trap or a State that hasn't followed others in raising the maximum speed limit on highways beyond the old generic maximums left over from the Federal 55MPH Maximum days.

Perhaps you would prefer they actually be arbitrary;

adjective
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion:
"an arbitrary decision."

You driver being the arbiter

 

[lcpiper]

If traffic is "flying along well above the speed limit", how "jam-packed" could the highway really be? Anyone who actually commutes in this fashion knows that "jam-packed" = slow, if not stop and go.

Dude, I-10 in Phoenix, AZ just before the bad things happen.

6+ lanes doing 75+ and everyone's' knuckles are white preying that nobody fucks up.

 

[Stoly]

Just because people break the rules doesn't mean the rules are ridiculous

Yes it does.

 

[SparkedFire]

If traffic is "flying along well above the speed limit", how "jam-packed" could the highway really be? Anyone who actually commutes in this fashion knows that "jam-packed" = slow, if not stop and go.

Have you ever driven in Atlanta? Anyways, I've seen 45mph limits on the expressway and absolutely everyone ignores it.

 

[Spidey329]

I'm really curious what these cars will do in places like L.A. where merging is a gladiator matchup. People there seem to pass the time by intentionally blocking a merge, guess to deal with the boredom of being stuck on gridlock for an hour.

I was there last Friday and completely surprised by how Google Maps rerouted me through alleyways and residential neighborhoods to beat the gridlock.

 

[cyclone3d]

If traffic is "flying along well above the speed limit", how "jam-packed" could the highway really be? Anyone who actually commutes in this fashion knows that "jam-packed" = slow, if not stop and go.

You ever drive long distance during the holidays or even just during or around rush hour time on any highway near any larger city?

Dude, I-10 in Phoenix, AZ just before the bad things happen.

6+ lanes doing 75+ and everyone's' knuckles are white preying that nobody fucks up.

Hah, exactly. Not just there though. Tucson is like that as well.

And El Paso and any other large Texas city.. or any state with any big city for that matter.

The vehicle I was driving was rearended by a vehicle that was pushed into my vehicle by the vehicle that rearended it which was rearended by another vehicle. This was during a coming back from Christmas vacation where the traffic was was really really heavy and going at least 5-10 mph over the speed limit.

No where to go. If you would let barely enough space for a vehicle to fit in front of you, some retard would pull in front of you from the other lane.

So a vehicle probably a half mile down the road got pulled over or had a flat tire or something.. all I know was that there were flashing lights way up ahead and then somebody or multiple people slammed on their brakes way up there and made the whole line of traffic come to a screeching halt.. I am talking people going off the road to avoid hitting the people in front of them and to avoid getting rearended.

Well, 3 vehicles back from me, an older person who obvious was not paying attention, was riding 2" off the person in front of them, or just plain had super slow reflexes didn't stop and caused a 4 car pileup, me being in the front.

I had already come to a complete stop and then heard the initial accident and then got hit.

 

[mstersmith80]

Just another layer of control Google and other corporations want. Control the vehicles and they can control freedom of movement. One step at a time and the applause will be laud.

 

[B00nie]

Truck drivers typically merge without caring who already drives on the main road. You either brake, switch lanes (illegal) or get crushed.

 

[cyclone3d]

I'm really curious what these cars will do in places like L.A. where merging is a gladiator matchup. People there seem to pass the time by intentionally blocking a merge, guess to deal with the boredom of being stuck on gridlock for an hour.

I was there last Friday and completely surprised by how Google Maps rerouted me through alleyways and residential neighborhoods to beat the gridlock.

You even been in a traffic jam where retards decide it is ok for them to pass people by using the right hand shoulder of the road?

If I see that happening, I am usually a few other people intentionally pull a little to the right so they get stuck and can't go anywhere.

 

[B00nie]

You even been in a traffic jam where retards decide it is ok for them to pass people by using the right hand shoulder of the road?

If I see that happening, I am usually a few other people intentionally pull a little to the right so they get stuck and can't go anywhere.

Why bother? They go maybe 100 yards further and then get stuck to the same traffic like everyone else. I just laugh at their stupidity.

 

[GotNoRice]

Dude, I-10 in Phoenix, AZ just before the bad things happen.

6+ lanes doing 75+ and everyone's' knuckles are white preying that nobody fucks up.

Have you ever driven in Atlanta? Anyways, I've seen 45mph limits on the expressway and absolutely everyone ignores it.

Obviously people drive fast if conditions allow them to do so, but pack enough people onto the freeway, and stop-and-go is what happens. That isn't because people don't want to drive fast, it's because they don't have a choice.

I'm from California, where there are probably more people on the road at any given time than the entire population of Arizona or Georgia. If you think people fly along on crowded freeways, then that just means you've never seen a freeway that is truly crowded. I know dozens who would give their first child to have freeways that didn't slow to a crawl during the commute every day.

 

[Ryankirsch13]

Only way to ensure safety between humans and these self driving cars, is to get the humans to actually obey the laws on the road. In all honesty that may be considered an impossibility. I talked to a couple of bikers when a kid died from a bike accident caused by speeding. They said you just gotta know your limits, and they also said that none of them were going to quit speeding because "they know their limits".. to me, that was a perfect display of human beings selfishness and absolute stupidity.

 

[Time2Kill]

You even been in a traffic jam where retards decide it is ok for them to pass people by using the right hand shoulder of the road?

If I see that happening, I am usually a few other people intentionally pull a little to the right so they get stuck and can't go anywhere.

What if that person had a medical emergency and you just blocked them from getting to the hospital?

 

[Budzman]

So they drive like old people.

 

[alxlwson]

For company owned vehicles, the owning business is responsible for the operator's driving errors, Google would get the ticket, the writer is a dumbass.

Not in my state. I get the ticket, not the company.

 

[Semantics]

I love opening the garage door with a remote from my computer room as I put my phone in my pocket and kiss the wife goodbye, hit the remote start on my key-fob, walk into the garage hearing the low burble of the 5.7Liter Hemi, put on my shoes, get into the Challenger feeling the high soft bucket seats and leather steering wheel. Making a nice spirited 15 minute drive into work speeding slightly when needed in order to avoid getting caught up in the sheeple, punching it a little through the corners, a little roar from the engine, sharp shifts from the 8-Speed Automatic Transmission that never seems to lug the engine ever. Only problem I have are drivers that won't get out of the passing lane, and drive side by side with people right next to them, in the lane that they themselves should be in.

Way too many assholes behind the wheel nowadays.

You do realize that a "passing lane" is just the side you're suppose to pass people on, it's not a speeding lane the speed limit is the speed limit people driving at the speed limit tend to stay next to each other. Yes slower moving vehicles should be in the right most lanes but if the slowest is the speed limit that's that.

They need to adapt. If everyone is going 5 MPH over, you should follow suit to not cause an accident. If you need to break a traffic rule to avoid an accident, you do it. If someone else breaks the law and makes the roadway unsafe, and you need to adjust (and break the rules) to avoid that unsafe area, you do it.

Sometimes, rules need to be broken to avoid/not cause an accident.

Fun to think but under the law it doesn't remove you from liability.

The problem here is the car being restricted by an arbitrary speed limit.

In the future, the cars would auto negotiate speed. But for now there is a conundrum of a real speed, versus the imposed speed.

Speed limits aren't that arbitrary given the safe operable speed of cars and morality rate of accidents increase drastically with speed. Not everyone maintains their tires and breaks as much as they should.

 

[Time2Kill]

You do realize that a "passing lane" is just the side you're suppose to pass people on, it's not a speeding lane the speed limit is the speed limit people driving at the speed limit tend to stay next to each other. Yes slower moving vehicles should be in the right most lanes but if the slowest is the speed limit that's that.
.

I don't know about all states, but where I'm at, the signs on the freeway say to STAY in the right lane unless you are passing. It's a ticketable offense if you're in the left lane and not passing.