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It's not just men though. Any large collection of immature people... And that's a major issue with the Linux community. I was at a job interview a few months ago, and it was a woman who interviewed me who had this look of aghast and disgust when I chose to use Visual Studio to solve a coding problem rather than Vim. (It was both a Linux & Windows shop).
Women don't inherently make a community better. Get mature men, and you'll have a good community. Get immature women, and you'll have a terrible community. The Linux community just tends to be immature and comprised mainly of men, but it's not the male part which makes it toxic. It's the immature, arrogant, entitled nature of the community which makes it toxic.
Anyone who can't appreciate the usage of the right tool at the right time to get the job DONE should not be interviewing people. I can debug a C program on an AS/400, I know the ins and outs of STRDBG, but I am probably also 20x faster finding a non-platform specific issue debugging it in VS. That must've been a pretty bad interviewer.It's not just men though. Any large collection of immature people... And that's a major issue with the Linux community. I was at a job interview a few months ago, and it was a woman who interviewed me who had this look of aghast and disgust when I chose to use Visual Studio to solve a coding problem rather than Vim. (It was both a Linux & Windows shop).
Women don't inherently make a community better. Get mature men, and you'll have a good community. Get immature women, and you'll have a terrible community. The Linux community just tends to be immature and comprised mainly of men, but it's not the male part which makes it toxic. It's the immature, arrogant, entitled nature of the community which makes it toxic.
So, if being a man equals being a jerk, then I guess I cannot make it in a "man's world" either. I am extremely good at what I do but the reason for that is I respect the customer and those around me. It is a job, not a competition and the only thing that matters is that the customer is taken care of. If you cannot do that, find another job. Yes, this is directed at you and not her.
This is what i hate about the tech community as a whole. When doing my computer degree i had 1 female on my course. The amount of shit she got from other students and lectures was insane, just because she was a girl.
Men in general...not just Linux, computers, or anything else like that. It's the way things are and it gets worse when there's a higher percentage of men vs women. AAAAND...just so people don't freak out about it, in places where there's a higher percentage of girls (lower socio-economic types are the worst liek nursing homes were there's lots of low wage people) it's just as bad for the few men who are there.
I work in the industrial field, almost all men, probably close to 98%, if not more, the few girls are made fun of, and picked on....Just like all the men. That's how it is, if we didn't accept them we would not pick on them, because at my job, if people don't pick/joke/make fun of you, they probably don't like you.
Should also note, the girls here understand this, and mess around as much as the men.
Sounds like really horri-bad poor management and clueless leadership is letting employees run amok to the potential detriment of the firm. It only takes one incident where someone says or does something stupid and then the entire history of those kinds of unacceptable jokes and picking are brought to the surface to show that a workplace had enabled a hostile environment for years and did nothing to fix it. So yeah, playing with fire is a bad idea and it's even worse to use that problem waiting to happen to justify unacceptable male behavior.
It all smells like a political stunt. Given we're in the ballpark for the elections, i have to wonder presidential candidate started all of this.
So what you are saying is that you are fully anti social interaction at work. I bet you are a real joy to be around.
Sounds like really horri-bad poor management and clueless leadership is letting employees run amok to the potential detriment of the firm. It only takes one incident where someone says or does something stupid and then the entire history of those kinds of unacceptable jokes and picking are brought to the surface to show that a workplace had enabled a hostile environment for years and did nothing to fix it. So yeah, playing with fire is a bad idea and it's even worse to use that problem waiting to happen to justify unacceptable male behavior.
Probably some of the best management I have ever been around, very high stress and demanding environment. Working here without being able to let off steam would be a night mare, as a result, we all get along fine and tell people to their face if they fucked up, and it is not sugar coated, it is not PC in the least, and it works great. I have worked at some places that are like you are speaking of, and no thank you, if your feelings get hurt that easy, you are not going to make it in this job, oil and gas clients can be some of the most rude and demanding people you will come across.
You want to see a stressful and demanding environment, go shadow some emergency medicine residents for a couple of days.
If any of them "let off steam" with straight-up sexist and homophobic remarks, they would be out on their ass waiting for the next application cycle in five minutes.
And if you want rude and demanding, let's talk about the patients that come into an ER.
You make excuses, but they're BS. That sort of behavior is juvenile and unacceptable. The fact that you can get away with it some places is irrelevant.
A number of years back, I stumbled across a hospital documentary. There were a couple male medical students (interns? residents? not sure) and a female med student. The guys were harassing the female with this x-ray of the black patient's lower torso region talking about how much he "likes" her. This went on until she mentioned that they were harassing her on national tv, and all of a sudden, they were dead silent. It was pretty hilarious.
Not enough actual examples of problems here...
How about this exchange she had a problem with:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2
FWIW here is Linus's responce:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2
Not enough actual examples of problems here...
How about this exchange she had a problem with:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2
FWIW here is Linus's responce:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2
Quite honestly? After reading both I'm not even sure what either side has their nose out of joint over. I mean her reaction was unwarranted given what she was replying too, but even then her reaction was far from bad. I've seen WAY WAY worse than that. As a result of that, Linus's email just seems to babble on about nothing really important.
What a bunch of children..the whole lot of them.
You want to see a stressful and demanding environment, go shadow some emergency medicine residents for a couple of days.
If any of them "let off steam" with straight-up sexist and homophobic remarks, they would be out on their ass waiting for the next application cycle in five minutes.
And if you want rude and demanding, let's talk about the patients that come into an ER.
You make excuses, but they're BS. That sort of behavior is juvenile and unacceptable. The fact that you can get away with it some places is irrelevant.
Wait...
In the first email Linus is telling Greg that he needs to stop acting like a doormat and learn to shout at people. In other words, grow some balls. Sarah's response to this is whining about violence? ffs.
Sorry, not every workplace environment is happy fluffy vegan funtime. That has nothing to do with being a man or woman, either. There are plenty of women in the office that I work who talk just as much crap as any of the guys, been at it for years, and have sent plenty of pajama-boy "men" on their way to some other place of employment while the company has continued to grow.
Ironically, I see parallels with Apple and wonder what will happen when there is no longer a Linus Torvalds at the helm. At times I've found Linus' honesty refreshing but what sticks out in my memory are moments like him throwing the finger to nVidia or speaking negatively about others like KDE, Gnome, etc.
I can't fault her the desire to create a better, more welcoming community and share her passion with others any more than I could fault Linus for doing the same with the kernel he created and shared.
I've got to say it would be interesting trying to work with Linux if the kernel treated the user as Linus might. Do something stupid and the system berates you, tells you your horrible at what you're doing (that you suck at coding), and turns off.
Not enough actual examples of problems here...
How about this exchange she had a problem with:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2
FWIW here is Linus's responce:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2
The fact that he has to "fake" politeness says a lot about what kind of human being he is.
You obviously didn't even read the comment, :faceplam:
My point is that he should be polite because he respects other people and isn't a jerk.
What kind of sentence is that?
Funny how she's talking about raising the level of respect and decorum on the mailing list while dropping f-bombs left and right to show that she's "just one of the guys".
Cursing is not a big deal IMO. Even just being rude isn't that big a deal either. Being sexist and homophobic is not.
I just have to wonder what the trigger was for this whole current iteration of womens this, womens that, womens this that n more social justice movement.
I don't remember any of this kind of stuff being discussed even a year ago.
It all smells like a political stunt. Given we're in the ballpark for the elections, i have to wonder presidential candidate started all of this.
There's a reason we hold our politicians, athletes, and other public figures to a higher standard than is realistic for humans.