Female Linux Dev Calls It Quits Over 'Toxic' Community

The user community is nice, supportive, and helpful.

Linus goes off on kernel developers when they break user space. That is rule 1 to 1000 of Linux kernel development. How many times does he need to say it and argue with people over it? It is not surprising he flips out once and a while over it. Here is some context Guy got what he deserved.

The Windows community has some that have that same Linux community quality. The "either learn it or die" mentality. If you have a simple question, the answer is "RTFM". Sure, that's fine for techies. We usually do that anyway. What gets me are those that don't know shit but want to just use the damn OS. They don't want to be an expert, they want to know enough to "just work". You should be able to ask a really simple question and get a simple answer. Who cares if it's something simple that could be answered with a 2 second Google search? Help the people out. That's hard to find.

I frequent Windows forums mostly. But, for Linux I do more of the sysadmin forums, so I expect the "RTFM" responses for those questions (sys admins better be searching first and asking the good questions and already tried a bunch of stuff...). But, for other forums for beginners, that's not a good answer. Windows forums have that to an extent, but not as much as the Linux community.
 
Heh. From her blog: http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/06/what-makes-a-good-community/

"Signs of a level 4 welcoming community:

Equally values developers, bug reporters, and non-code contributors"

Define non code contributors. Of course without any devs you have no bug reporters or non code contributors. Not everyone is equal in a company.

Even better:
"Signs of a level 5 welcoming community:
Community participates in diversity programs
Diversity is not just a PR campaign – developers truly seek out different perspectives and try to understand their own privilege
Gender presentation is treated as a non-issue at conferences
Conferences include child care, clearly labeled veggie and non-veggie foods, and a clear event policy
Alcoholic drinks policy encourages participants to have fun, rather than get smashed
Code of conduct explicitly protects diverse developers, acknowledging the spectrum of privilege
Committee handling enforcement of the code of conduct includes diverse leaders from the community"

I know that when I go to a conference I'm always worried about veggie and non veggie foods. This is a top priority in any business.

Bite into something you think is meat to find it is a meat replacement. Like a meatless meatball and you will care. Fuck those people
 
Oh yeah? Which industries?

Ever worked a trade?

Stuff doesn't get made in an efficient or expedient manner because tradesmen are soft and gentle spirits who respectfully ease each other towards a finished product.
 
This is what i hate about the tech community as a whole. When doing my computer degree i had 1 female on my course. The amount of shit she got from other students and lectures was insane, just because she was a girl.

Yup, I saw the same thing in my Eng program back in the late 1980s. Three women in my first year group and when they weren't being harassed by lecherous first-time-away-from-home bags of testosterone, they were being told, directly and indirectly that engineering isn't the place for women. Nothing but respect for all three, who successfully graduated in each of their respective disciplines (1x civil and 2x chem. / petroleum .. which is a VERY difficult program at the school I went to).
 
This is what I wrote on her second post about her ideal community:

Your goals are admirable, but I think your steps for achieving them are unrealistic. Starting with the very first step and 'missing stairs'. On the face of it that's wholly reasonable; if Susan goes on an insane tirade whenever anyone doesn't conform to her standards for commenting, giving someone a heads-up about it before they encounter her is a good idea. However, in reality that is often a back door to bullying and cliquish exclusion. Who decided that Susan was a missing stair? Was there a tribunal? Did she get to stand in rotating hula hoops before being sentenced to the negative zone? Or is the person labeling her a problem to new users just a person who doesn't like her and is trying to get her pushed out of 'their' community?

If a person is an out of control asshole, it should be obvious enough to everyone to exclude them completely. But if there's room for debate on the issue, then calling them an out of control asshole to new people is just setting up a toxic community where everyone winds up taking sides until a large portion quit in disgust.

Further up the steps you list several things to welcome and encourage new arrivals. And that's great! But who's gonna do it? Time and effort aren't free, someone would have to give up a significant amount of it to be doing all of these welcoming things and writing guides and organizing conferences and whatnot. In order to accomplish all of the desired things, it really looks to me like multiple people would have to not actually be coding anything and instead be spending every minute that they would be working on wrangling newbies.

People noted that business-sponsored communities often run more smoothly. It's not exactly a mystery as to why! A business can go grab Rick and Tina in HR and force them to deal with all of the code nerds and do the people-organizing stuff while the code nerds themselves are busy nerding. A community without that is basically depending on someone being selfless enough to sacrifice their own project to go around hand-holding the newbies. I doubt that you're going to find many volunteers.

Other parts depend heavily on people being perfect empaths who give and take comments in a way with no misunderstandings. "Contributors are thanked with heartfelt sincerity and an explicit acknowledgment of what was good and what could be improved." can easily become "That smiling two-faced jerk acted like he was doing me a favor while tearing me down in front of everyone." In a perfect world, an explicit acknowledgement of what could be improved could be taken in the spirit in which it's given and help people towards improvement. In the real world, it can be taken as an attack. In the real world, it could actually BE an attack; there's a thin line between giving advice and condescending.

I don't want to be discouraging, I agree completely with the end goal here, I just think the plan doesn't take human nature into account. If it hinges on everyone being reasonable, not at all petty, or selfish, or ever having a bad day, it's going to go up like the Hindenburg one day.

It vanished, deleted before clearing moderation. If that's her response to a person who points out problems with her idea without any kind of insults involved, it's abruptly clearer to me why she felt that a community of coders was too hostile to her! Apparently any kind of disagreement is too much for her to handle.
 
Could someone post concrete examples of what this lady is talking about?
It seems like a thin skin issue here.
She says she gets respect for her quality work, so it can't all be craziness I assume?
 
This is what I wrote on her second post about her ideal community:



It vanished, deleted before clearing moderation. If that's her response to a person who points out problems with her idea without any kind of insults involved, it's abruptly clearer to me why she felt that a community of coders was too hostile to her! Apparently any kind of disagreement is too much for her to handle.

So basically what you're saying is that these guys couldn't take criticism and flipped out when a female expresses a negative opinion of them because all women should be grateful to men for giving them the ability to help them do something, but quietly and in a way that doesn't demonstrate a personal opinion. Sure, that seems legitimate and reasonable.
 
10 bucks says this lady put out a bad patch, had a history of it, Linus went off on her, went for support, got none, rallied the SJWs....and..........'err we are.
 
I do not think the pay would ever be worth putting up with all that crap. Also, the community expecting some great product for free is the height of arrogance and selfishness. Be appreciative of others hard work, it will go a long, long way.
 
The fact that it's Linux underneath is almost immaterial. Android is Android because of Google's closed-source apps running on top of it. They could move off a Linux base and most people would never notice.

And yet even with a company with seemingly infinite resources they went with... Linux.

(Actually, may not be entirely true as they purchased Android from another company, but the point is the same...)

The only people stuck with Google's closed-source apps are people who choose Nexus devices. Every other company can and does add their own software to the OS.
 
There have been other devs that left the Linux community because it's got it's share of dinks. It's only news here when a woman does it because it makes the neocons shit their pants with impotent rage at a woman saying things.
 
And yet even with a company with seemingly infinite resources they went with... Linux.

(Actually, may not be entirely true as they purchased Android from another company, but the point is the same...)

The only people stuck with Google's closed-source apps are people who choose Nexus devices. Every other company can and does add their own software to the OS.

Amazon is the only other major Android device manufacturer I'm aware of that doesn't have the Google Play Store built-in as the primary app store.

That's where the key is. Look at the system apps folder on your Samsung or HTC or whatever. You'll see dozens of Google binaries.
 
I see this still has not changed. I read her blog and that was exactly why she quit. Linux community is the least helpful of all and that is why it is still stuck in the enterprise level. And here we have people continue to want to push Linux as the alternative solution to Windows. It will never happen unless the typical response of "Why are you so stupid?" or "Let me Google that for you." attitude changes.

Not surprising considering some of the Linux developers I've known. Most are both extremely arrogant and incompetent. They don't even realize how bad they are, but they think they're awesome. Yet, the Linux software I've had to use has been horribly illogical and extremely difficult to use. I think they actually do that intentionally to keep certain types of people away, but that just keeps the adoption to the fringe. It will never be used by the general public until they make it easier to use. They claim it is superior, but most couldn't even tell because it is too hard to use. Those of us who can tell know it's inferior to Windows in nearly every way. I doubt what she ran into was really sexism, and more than likely arrogant bullies trying to protect their egos any way they can.

Pretty much these quotes are my thoughts towards it. A few weeks ago, I was wondering how to accomplish something, so I googled it. I found a post similar to what I was asking on Stack Overflow. The highest voted response to the other person's question was something along the lines of "It should be obvious. One of your lines is wrong." Wow, very helpful. Yes, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Linux. I'm in an environment I don't know, and the answer to the other person's question just stated the obvious without explaining what nor why it was wrong.

The vast majority of people in that community I've seen are arrogant to an extreme degree. They expect you to learn what you need to know by first knowing what you need to know. They look down upon other people who aren't in their core circle as being inferior. While not the kernel developers, I often hear how Mac's are terrible because they're designed for idiots. Well, if an idiot can use a product, to me, that's actually great design, compared to an environment where you have 500 menu options, but still need to use the command line to accomplish the task.

Quite a few posts here are making it out to seem like it's a gender issue. It's not. It's an issue of extreme arrogance and hubris that permeates the Linux community.
 
From her Blog.

I did not want to work professionally with people who were allowed to get away with subtle sexist or homophobic jokes. I feel powerless in a community that had a “Code of Conflict” without a specific list of behaviors to avoid and a community with no teeth to enforce it.



From what she is saying she cannot make it this "mans world" simply because she always got her feelings hurt. So she decries this environment because there is no oversight to keep people from getting there feelings hurt. Alas, feminism has betrayed her.

What she wants is some kind of enforceable rules to guard that nobody will get their feelings hurt. So if she says "I love cats" and I say "Yeah, they taste like chicken" then I'm a problem that must be dealt with even though I may be one of the best developers contributing. This is recipe to KILL all open source development.
MOST of the people that contribute are very talented people that cooperatively work toward a common goal. They do this for free on their own time. I'm sure most already work a full time job with political correctness up to their necks.
WHY in the world would they bother if it becomes a complete hassle to them; of if they get the smack down if someone is offended by a comment they make?
 
From what she is saying she cannot make it this "mans world" simply because she always got her feelings hurt. So she decries this environment because there is no oversight to keep people from getting there feelings hurt. Alas, feminism has betrayed her.

There's no reason for this environment to exist. It's unacceptable.
 
Pretty much these quotes are my thoughts towards it. A few weeks ago, I was wondering how to accomplish something, so I googled it. I found a post similar to what I was asking on Stack Overflow. The highest voted response to the other person's question was something along the lines of "It should be obvious. One of your lines is wrong." Wow, very helpful. Yes, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Linux. I'm in an environment I don't know, and the answer to the other person's question just stated the obvious without explaining what nor why it was wrong.

The vast majority of people in that community I've seen are arrogant to an extreme degree. They expect you to learn what you need to know by first knowing what you need to know. They look down upon other people who aren't in their core circle as being inferior. While not the kernel developers, I often hear how Mac's are terrible because they're designed for idiots. Well, if an idiot can use a product, to me, that's actually great design, compared to an environment where you have 500 menu options, but still need to use the command line to accomplish the task.

Quite a few posts here are making it out to seem like it's a gender issue. It's not. It's an issue of extreme arrogance and hubris that permeates the Linux community.

This is the sort of environment that you seem to get when you collect a bunch of immature males in an essentially anonymous environment. Bravado, dismissive attitudes, abuse. It's pathetic, and that this attitude is represented at even the highest levels of Linux development is sad, and it enables the idiots on forums and whatnot.
 
There's no reason for this environment to exist. It's unacceptable.

It's perfectly acceptable. It's the way it's always been, she got in there trying to change things and got butt hurt. Write good clean code, no problems, do a shitty job and get called out for it.

This isn't grade school where everybody's a winner.
 
It's perfectly acceptable. It's the way it's always been, she got in there trying to change things and got butt hurt. Write good clean code, no problems, do a shitty job and get called out for it.

This isn't grade school where everybody's a winner.

The issue had nothing to do with the quality of her code.
 
This is what i hate about the tech community as a whole. When doing my computer degree i had 1 female on my course. The amount of shit she got from other students and lectures was insane, just because she was a girl.

While working at IBM 30-40% of our team (60+ people) was female. I never saw or heard of problems like that in that environment. I've been in the IT field for 19 years. In that time I've seen very little actual bias and mistreatment of women in the IT profession. On the other hand I've seen far too many women in the business with a bad attitude and a chip on their shoulders. They sometimes tend to be real defensive and try too hard to prove themselves when no one doubted them in the first place. I have to wonder how much anti-female bias is perceived rather than actual.

I've worked for dozens of clients in environments in banking, government, legal and private firms large and small. While I've seen some bias, and anti-female behavior it is in no way normal in my experience. Most of the things I've seen were all cases of sexual harassment, but even then it wasn't as common as the media makes it out to be.
 
From her Blog.





From what she is saying she cannot make it this "mans world" simply because she always got her feelings hurt. So she decries this environment because there is no oversight to keep people from getting there feelings hurt. Alas, feminism has betrayed her.

What she wants is some kind of enforceable rules to guard that nobody will get their feelings hurt. So if she says "I love cats" and I say "Yeah, they taste like chicken" then I'm a problem that must be dealt with even though I may be one of the best developers contributing. This is recipe to KILL all open source development.
MOST of the people that contribute are very talented people that cooperatively work toward a common goal. They do this for free on their own time. I'm sure most already work a full time job with political correctness up to their necks.
WHY in the world would they bother if it becomes a complete hassle to them; of if they get the smack down if someone is offended by a comment they make?

So, if being a man equals being a jerk, then I guess I cannot make it in a "man's world" either. I am extremely good at what I do but the reason for that is I respect the customer and those around me. It is a job, not a competition and the only thing that matters is that the customer is taken care of. If you cannot do that, find another job. Yes, this is directed at you and not her.
 
Ignoring all the she's a girl crap, to be entirely fair the Linux community is full of entitled assholes, especially to any who criticize it. I mean even my own cousin, who I got into and taught linux is a giant asshole to me because I won't blindly "tow the Linux line" and have the apparent nerve to say. "Sorry, but the Linux community sucks dick and is the very reason why it has no chance of competing at a consumer level".
 
From what she is saying she cannot make it this "mans world" simply because she always got her feelings hurt. So she decries this environment because there is no oversight to keep people from getting there feelings hurt. Alas, feminism has betrayed her.

Oooh, I get it now! Having a penis means you're justified in being an asshole to everyone around you and everyone without a penis has to just take it and either approve of it or not feel anything at all about it. I'm glad we sorted out how ending up with a certain set of gonads by whichever sperm happened to be the fastest swimmer grants you the ability to act like an idiot.
 
Ignoring all the she's a girl crap, to be entirely fair the Linux community is full of entitled assholes, especially to any who criticize it. I mean even my own cousin, who I got into and taught linux is a giant asshole to me because I won't blindly "tow the Linux line" and have the apparent nerve to say. "Sorry, but the Linux community sucks dick and is the very reason why it has no chance of competing at a consumer level".

Any large collection of immature men anyplace (including the cesspool of them that are programming stuff for Linux) are basically jerks. It's not just a Linux thing. It happens in a sports bar, on a construction site, online in video games, or anyplace else.
 
The issue had nothing to do with the quality of her code.
And you know this because???

Human beings are predators; the top predators on the planet at this point in time. If you are going to play with the boys than you must understand that things could get a little rough sometimes. She's obviously some douche hippie chick and is emotionally unsuited for the job. Lions and tigers and bears are not evil creators despite killing and eating smaller animals. That is just the nature of the universe. Expecting men to act and feel like women is sexist and discriminatory.

She is better off teaching yoga or cooking macrobiotic meals for other hippie chicks. If she really is a good programmer maybe she can start her own software company, hire other hippie chicks, and develop programs for people who can't tell what sex they are even when they are looking at their own junk... (unless Darwin gets her first...)
 
And you know this because???

You think the devs on the Linux kernel list act like misogynistic, homophobic assholes because Sarah's code wasn't good enough?

She's obviously some douche hippie chick and is emotionally unsuited for the job.

She is better off teaching yoga or cooking macrobiotic meals for other hippie chicks

Where in your life did you learn that this is acceptable behavior? Who showed you that such a profound lack of respect for women is a good thing?

You don't have to be this way. I know it's the internet and we're all anonymous and it's easy to be a galactic jerk, but you can also be a decent human being. It's not too late to change and grow up.
 
Here we go again. i swear these same headlines pop up if not every week then at least every other week
:rolleyes:
 
It's perfectly acceptable. It's the way it's always been, she got in there trying to change things and got butt hurt. Write good clean code, no problems, do a shitty job and get called out for it.

This isn't grade school where everybody's a winner.

This is not reality and I hope you are more than aware of it. Oh well, I love what I do and have been blessed with a pretty good work environment. Because of that, it helps me take care of the customer a lot better.
 
I feel that this thread title is misleading. Other than the fact that the author alluded to some sexist jokes that some of the Linux kernel community have made, the author is not insinuating that the kernel community as a whole is sexist.

All her blog post points out, is that the kernel development community is both technically and personally brutal, and that she no longer has the energy for dealing with that shit. It could just as well as easily been a man who wrote the article, and it would have read exactly the same.
 
This is not reality and I hope you are more than aware of it. Oh well, I love what I do and have been blessed with a pretty good work environment. Because of that, it helps me take care of the customer a lot better.

I have worked at three fortune 500 companies. At one the plant manager during his X-Mas speech stood up and said each and every one of you are instantly replaceable, and not to forget it.

One of the others, told as a salary guy that a work week was 60 hour min or he'd find someone that would.

Actually the middle job was pretty good.
 
There's no reason for this environment to exist. It's unacceptable.

I agree that this environment shoudn't exist. You know what though?

Just like criminals don't follow laws, so do these anonymous a-holes not follow proper decorum.

You can't legislate morality, ethicality, or professionalism. You have people who simply carry themselves in a moral/ethical/professional matter no matter who or what is watching...and you have people who this lady is pointing at who will be who they really are because they know that it's nearly impossible for accountability to follow up and punch them in the face for the crap they spit out.

I'm not saying it's hopeless and that we shoudn't do anything, but it's useless to say something is unacceptable without putting forward a plan to do away with what is unacceptable.

Many(the majority) of us (men) would hog-tie / tar n feather the types of people that this woman has just claims about.
 
Human beings are predators; the top predators on the planet at this point in time.

When's the last time you killed something while naked in the forest and then ate it raw and how is that relevant to acting with a little basic decency?

If you are going to play with the boys than you must understand that things could get a little rough sometimes.

Another example of the idea that having a penis automatically entitles someone to act stupid.

She's obviously some douche hippie chick and is emotionally unsuited for the job.

What personality traits does a bottle of douche have? I've never met one that expressed an opinion about anything. And anyhow, besides trying to cleverly hide an insult in your rant, how do you know what she acts like or what sort of emotional state she's in? Have you met her?

Lions and tigers and bears are not evil creators despite killing and eating smaller animals. That is just the nature of the universe.

Once again, when's the last time you ate something raw after killing it wearing just your body hair? Do you consider yourself a bear or a tiger or are you supposed to be a little more intelligent...or is this a furry thing you're expressing?

Expecting men to act and feel like women is sexist and discriminatory.

People are expecting men to act like civilized, decent people. Very few people want men to act like women. Stupid boy behavior is kind of cute and the differences are what attracts opposites together. However, if you think decency and civilized interaction is limited to women, you might have a problem.

She is better off teaching yoga or cooking macrobiotic meals for other hippie chicks.

Yes, let's railroad someone into a job the penis says she should do, like cooking! Tee hee!

If she really is a good programmer maybe she can start her own software company, hire other hippie chicks, and develop programs for people who can't tell what sex they are even when they are looking at their own junk... (unless Darwin gets her first...)

Sure, she should work only in a gender-segregated business. It'll be separate, but equal and it's where women belong...working only with other women. That sounds familiar.
 
I agree that this environment shoudn't exist. You know what though?

Just like criminals don't follow laws, so do these anonymous a-holes not follow proper decorum.

You can't legislate morality, ethicality, or professionalism. You have people who simply carry themselves in a moral/ethical/professional matter no matter who or what is watching...and you have people who this lady is pointing at who will be who they really are because they know that it's nearly impossible for accountability to follow up and punch them in the face for the crap they spit out.

I'm not saying it's hopeless and that we shoudn't do anything, but it's useless to say something is unacceptable without putting forward a plan to do away with what is unacceptable.

Many(the majority) of us (men) would hog-tie / tar n feather the types of people that this woman has just claims about.

I don't think anyone is asking for legislation. We're asking for the community to start policing itself the way most communities, whether online or workplace or whatever, do.
 
For the record, I would hog-tie / tar n feather Linus in about 3 seconds for his manner / method of communication.

He is 100% justified in calling out bad code, bad 'best practices', bad methodologies and the like.

He is more than 100% justified in reinforcing the commitment to 'not breaking userspace', even if you're working on something as crappy as USB driver interfaces/implementations/similiar.


... but you don't rail on people the way he rails on people, because that kind of behavior is adopted by others in the community.

Prick behavior is prick behavior, regardless of the situation.
 
For the record, I would hog-tie / tar n feather Linus in about 3 seconds for his manner / method of communication.

He is 100% justified in calling out bad code, bad 'best practices', bad methodologies and the like.

He is more than 100% justified in reinforcing the commitment to 'not breaking userspace', even if you're working on something as crappy as USB driver interfaces/implementations/similiar.


... but you don't rail on people the way he rails on people, because that kind of behavior is adopted by others in the community.

Prick behavior is prick behavior, regardless of the situation.

Nailed it. No need for F-bombs, no need for personal attacks.
 
While working at IBM 30-40% of our team (60+ people) was female. I never saw or heard of problems like that in that environment. I've been in the IT field for 19 years. In that time I've seen very little actual bias and mistreatment of women in the IT profession. On the other hand I've seen far too many women in the business with a bad attitude and a chip on their shoulders. They sometimes tend to be real defensive and try too hard to prove themselves when no one doubted them in the first place. I have to wonder how much anti-female bias is perceived rather than actual.

I've worked for dozens of clients in environments in banking, government, legal and private firms large and small. While I've seen some bias, and anti-female behavior it is in no way normal in my experience. Most of the things I've seen were all cases of sexual harassment, but even then it wasn't as common as the media makes it out to be.

This has been almost identical to my experience the past 20 years as well. I've seen instances where sexual harassment happened, and people got fired as they should be. I've also seen more recently examples of women crying sexual harassment that didn't happen as a means to abuse their position, These women just like those who do indeed perpetuate sexual harassment need to be fired and made examples of. It doesn't matter if you are male or female, that kind of shit has no business in the work place. But back to the larger point, yes I've seen it all happen but like you it isn't anywhere near as common as the media or certain activist groups claim. If even a fraction of all the cases those groups claim were legit, we would be hearing about mass firings and civil lawsuits every day. Most of it is extremely exaggerated bullshit.
 
"Conferences include child care, clearly labeled veggie and non-veggie foods, and a clear event policy"

But muh VEGAN. But muh special other shit.
If I have a special diet, I bring my own food or I deal with what's there.

If I have a child, I am responsible for it while I want to go off doing something. I will never raise the cost of events for others just because I elected to have a child and then didn't want to take care of the cost and inconvenience.
 
Any large collection of immature men anyplace (including the cesspool of them that are programming stuff for Linux) are basically jerks. It's not just a Linux thing. It happens in a sports bar, on a construction site, online in video games, or anyplace else.

It's not just men though. Any large collection of immature people... And that's a major issue with the Linux community. I was at a job interview a few months ago, and it was a woman who interviewed me who had this look of aghast and disgust when I chose to use Visual Studio to solve a coding problem rather than Vim. (It was both a Linux & Windows shop).

Women don't inherently make a community better. Get mature men, and you'll have a good community. Get immature women, and you'll have a terrible community. The Linux community just tends to be immature and comprised mainly of men, but it's not the male part which makes it toxic. It's the immature, arrogant, entitled nature of the community which makes it toxic.
 
Back
Top