The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

Building a quiet PC inside an Ncase M1 is already possible with beefy air coolers, no need to complicate a build and double the costs with watercooling. At the moment I'd say the PSU's fan and GPU/PSU coil whine are the limiting factor in quiet mITX builds.

Maybe, but we all have different ways to interpret "quiet". The standard is probably set by Fractal Design R5 with carefully chosen components. SPCR tells the Ncase is still a bit behind in terms of quietness, especially under load.

Watercooling is an elegant solution, especially to silence a GPU. Otherwise you would have to find these giant after market air coolers, and special VRM heatsinks, etc. I know you did that for your build.

I still think it would be exciting to see a balanced and elegantly designed mid-size mini-itx case with silence and possibly water cooling in mind. Fractal Design is the only one getting it right on the ATX front, but it's cheap stuff they are making.
 
So, the SteamBox design is dead? Well, that's a bummer, but I'm not too surprised, not so much because of the engineerng challenges which I'm sure you could solve (like switch to steel for the internals and design the upper half of the case to have a "double wall" between the GPU and the HDDs)
A double wall wouldn't really help here, because the issue is the heat simply conducts through the chassis where the partition meets the rear, then to the side panels. Aluminum is very good at this, and unfortunately it doesn't serve us well here. I do tend to agree with your other points about the market appeal for the case, however.

I would love to see a contribution to the uATX-market. The market for uATX-cases that are not just small midi-towers severely underrepresented. Do you remember your remake of the Sugo SG10?
Sure. That specific layout has some things I'm not such a fan of though, like the very limited watercooling support. It's also quite wide, and I tend to prefer taller and narrower vs. short and squat.

I still think it would be exciting to see a balanced and elegantly designed mid-size mini-itx case with silence and possibly water cooling in mind.
This is something I'd like to do as well, and I've actually done more than a few concepts along those lines. It's a real challenge to decide what aspects or features to include, and which to omit, because everything is a tradeoff. Just as an example, top vents are not ideal either from a noise or dust control perspective, but they're an ideal place for a radiator to exhaust. Of course that has implications for the size as well, and you can't easily use the space for anything else, so it ends up being wasted space if not used for a radiator.
 
What a shame ...however i applaud your willingness to go back to the drawing board this far into the process.

It doesn't seem clear from the last few pages if you're considering abandoning the steam box concept, or simply redesigning the internals and external measurements following those changes?
 
What's more, drives temps got pretty high. I had an 2TB 2.5" drive installed at the back and it saw 50C while the GPU was under load. So Saper, you were right about this, and in my theorycrafting I neglected to take into account just how well aluminum conducts heat. In fact, under GPU load conditions, the entire rear part of the case becomes completely heat saturated and basically turns into an oven for the drives. The situation might be better in a case like the RVZ02, which has the same drives-behind-the-GPU-separated-by-a-partition layout, due to the lower heat conductivity of steel and the plastic drive mounting. But clearly for an aluminum chassis, a different design is in order.
What's wrong with a plastic mount/standoffs/spacers for the drives? You can't see those unless you open the case, and reliability is hardly a concern in this case.
 
What's wrong with a plastic mount/standoffs/spacers for the drives? You can't see those unless you open the case, and reliability is hardly a concern in this case.

The way I read it it isn't as much a matter of the drive touching the hot aluminum but more a matter of the hot aluminum heating up the air in that compartment. You're cooking the drives. So a plastic spacer wouldn't work. At least not well enough.
 
So here's what's going on: I did some thermal testing over the weekend and I'm not entirely satisfied with the results. The CPU and PSU cooling aren't an issue, it's the GPU side and the drives that are a concern. I tested with a reference (blower) GTX 780, and while it ran at its rated clockspeed @<83C, the backside of the card and/or some components (VRMs) were obviously getting quite hot. I say obvious because while I had no way of measuring it, there was a notable smell of hot plastic, which I don't find acceptable. Now, this is a fairly hot running card (250W TDP), but it's nevertheless something the case ought to be sufficiently designed to handle. The bottom line is that you really do need some active airflow across the back of the card - relying completely on the card's fans is fine for the what the heatsink covers, but inadequate, IMO, for cooling the parts of the card it doesn't. Honestly, I should've listened to my own advice on this.

What's more, drives temps got pretty high. I had an 2TB 2.5" drive installed at the back and it saw 50C while the GPU was under load. So Saper, you were right about this, and in my theorycrafting I neglected to take into account just how well aluminum conducts heat. In fact, under GPU load conditions, the entire rear part of the case becomes completely heat saturated and basically turns into an oven for the drives. The situation might be better in a case like the RVZ02, which has the same drives-behind-the-GPU-separated-by-a-partition layout, due to the lower heat conductivity of steel and the plastic drive mounting. But clearly for an aluminum chassis, a different design is in order.

So I've looked at ways of addressing these issues with the current design, but they feel kludgy, and ultimately probably not that effective. Really what it comes down to is the need for a total rethink of the airflow layout. The RVZ01/Node202 style with the dual 120mm fans right next to the GPU is probably the best cooling layout for this size, however this does present a problem of where to mount the drives.

At this point, since we're looking at a major redesign anyway, I'm thinking about taking things in a somewhat different direction. I don't just want to do the same layout as the Node 202 in a nicer aluminum package. There are also a few other, smaller console-style projects in the works here on the forum. I have some ideas where we could go with it that are exciting to me, but they entail some technical aspects that I have to do a bit more research on. I can't say when or even if these new ideas will coalesce into a design, though. It may be that the next case we do is entirely unrelated to this.

Anyway, I apologize to those who've been waiting patiently for this case, and I hate that I have to disappoint you. But I really want to make the best product I can, and sometimes that means letting go of one thing so something better can bloom in its place.

Don't give up!

You just found something you hadn't planned. So what? No need to dismiss the whole thing altogether. The case itself is bloody good as it is, you just found a little stone in your way... but that can be surpassed, and the end goal achieved :cool:

This problem is exactly the same I faced on the FT03 (among others).

Picture for reference:

Image_33S.jpg


What happens is that the HDD portion of the case has no ventilation, which means that all the heat that such part traps will stay there, and will cook the drives.

In LRPC, looking at the design, I see exactly the same issue.

a) The drive compartment is isolated from the rest of the case but, at the same time, there is no ventilation. Air might get in, but can't get out. So, not even convection will work.

b) All the heat from the back of the HDD goes straight into the drive chamber, as well as the card heating up its bracket (on power hungry cards it gets hot, and that goes back to the drives as well.

The question is... is there any chance to relocate the drives somewhere else without screwing the design too much? Apparently, there isn't, or else you would have pointed it out.

But...how about you suck the air into the chamber THROUGH the drives? You put the drives and the vga in the same chamber, BUT the drives are anchored to the same perforated panel that the vga uses as an intake. Heck, we (M1 users) have the HDD's on the bottom of the case, barely touching the gpu, and aren't cooking the drives. And I don't even have a fan in there, which means that this has a good chance or working.

Yes, the solution won't be so elegant... but it might work, and you wouldn't have to change barely anything.

I know that prototyping isn't precisely cheap and, going by the numbers you provided for M1, we might be talking $3000 here. But I'm willing to help with that, and I'm sure many others will do it, happily.

In any case, whatever you decide, I will support you. But please, do not give up your design and hard work unless it can't be salvaged! And I think it can!


I'm not sure if 250W gpu isn't an overkill for such a case but at the same time you're trying to compete with RVZ02 at target end user which will probably be able to buy 980TI/TitanX.

He isn't competing with RVZ02. No idea why some people get those ideas.


As for the aluminium I think the error in your thinking was taking the unprocessed aluminium parameters instead of anodized/painted material. This way instead of quickly getting the heat in and out the cover you slowly get it inside and it quickly spreads all around the case while blocking the escape of more the incoming heat.

At some point I was like "maybe with aluminium you can do this kind of stuff without caring about thermals?" and I thought about making the cover from aluminium but we did research it and it doesn't really matter after processing except for the weight.

Case construction has no weight in this problem. It wouldn't really matter if you had the case painted or in raw materials, as the HDD portion of the case has 0 ventilation, which means that every bit of heat it gets, it has to dissipate by convection or radiation. And, as the gpu is barely touching the pannel... its impossible to dissipate the heat it gets in without any active cooling. Simply not possible.


So, the SteamBox design is dead? Well, that's a bummer, but I'm not too surprised, not so much because of the engineerng challenges which I'm sure you could solve (like switch to steel for the internals and design the upper half of the case to have a "double wall" between the GPU and the HDDs) but because SilverStone already got the market for SteamBox-designs well covered with at least six cases that have virtually the same internal layout (except for the their first-gen SteamBox-cases, that are slightly wider, which some people would actually prefer over your case).

Your design approach to that format is still unique with its outer aluminium design and the cleaner and slightly more compact internals. But for the greater market it lacked uniqueness since SilverStone have introduced their SteamBox design. And with a price tag of probably near $200 (plus shipping and tax) many people would have preferred the much cheaper SilverStone cases that work just as well (or apparently even better), offer ODD-support and don't actually look that bad. Plus: There is strong competition even in this forum.

If you think NCASE's designs have competition, you should look harder. Specially if you want to compare them to Silverstone, because there is absolutely nothing to compare.

Well I'd be happy to buy your prototype for $300 as I won't be using an inefficient power hungry GPU or conventional hard drives!

Right. I bet the cost was closer to $3000 than $2000.
 
Hope you guys didn't spend all your money on these designs.

Looking at steamlink and other technologies coming up, maybe the demand for a steambox won't be as high as you would want anyway.

Hopefully you guys will find something else to work on. Like others have said. Maybe a cool matx. I mean you could probably make a matx the size of other vendors itx cases. I also think you guys could pull off a really cool dedicated NAS-case.
 
He isn't competing with RVZ02. No idea why some people get those ideas.

I meant that if LRPC isn't going to pursue smallest and slickest design then I think it's got be something a class better than the mainstream cases there on the market.

LRPC would deliver that but at a price tag between $200 and $250 (which I'd assume for it) I think most people would want to put some high powered cards inside.

While your idea about drives mounted on the intake is technically feasible, it'll be hard to make it work as easy to use and great looking at the same time.

I actually think that if Necere's going to get back to drawing board for the case now then he might consider re-targeting the hardware for it and fitting for example only short itx cards but making it properly vented including the drives.
 
He isn't competing with RVZ02. No idea why some people get those ideas.

If you think NCASE's designs have competition, you should look harder. Specially if you want to compare them to Silverstone, because there is absolutely nothing to compare.

This is not about build quality or what you think looks nice for a case. In terms of functionality the LRPC offers nothing that others SteamBox cases aren't already doing. The only unique thing about the LRPC is the broad use of aluminium - that leads to thermal problems that other SteamBoxes don't seem to have - and the lack of an optical drive. There is nothing where the LRPC excels above the competition apart from clean looks - which are a matter of taste. But the LRPC might cost 250&#8364; with tax and shipping, while here in Europe you can buy the Silverstone SteamBox cases for 80&#8364; at every corner. What do you think which case most people will choose?

The M1 is a completely different story. Not only is it one of the most beautiful cases available, it also offers unrivaled functionality in a tiny form factor. The next best thing to the M1 is probably three times larger or offers only have of its functionality (Cougar CBX). If you want a case like the M1, you can only buy the M1. But if you want small SteamBox case, you can just grab a Raven RVZ02 or Milo ML08. And that's what most people would do. They might admire the looks of the LRCP, but in the end they grab the case that is three times cheaper and performs better.
 
It doesn't seem clear from the last few pages if you're considering abandoning the steam box concept, or simply redesigning the internals and external measurements following those changes?
I wouldn't say abandoning it, per se, but it's definitely deprioritized. Since I'm essentially going back to the drawing board with it, it puts it on even footing with any other project I could be working on. So it kind of depends what I feel inspired to work on, and what ends up resulting in a viable design.


What's wrong with a plastic mount/standoffs/spacers for the drives? You can't see those unless you open the case, and reliability is hardly a concern in this case.
The drives are mounted on rubber washers (same as in the M1), though they probably don't provide all that much isolation from conductive heating. The real problem is as Urelure said - every part of the chassis around the drives is heating up, and that heats drives through both the air and radiative heating.


Don't give up!
I appreciate that, but it's less about giving up and more about reworking things until the design is good enough.


What happens is that the HDD portion of the case has no ventilation, which means that all the heat that such part traps will stay there, and will cook the drives.

In LRPC, looking at the design, I see exactly the same issue.

a) The drive compartment is isolated from the rest of the case but, at the same time, there is no ventilation. Air might get in, but can't get out. So, not even convection will work.
Well, there is some ventilation - the top vents extend partly over the drive area:



Granted it's not a lot, and I was thinking (before deciding on a full redesign) to add some vents to the rear as well.


The question is... is there any chance to relocate the drives somewhere else without screwing the design too much? Apparently, there isn't, or else you would have pointed it out.

But...how about you suck the air into the chamber THROUGH the drives? You put the drives and the vga in the same chamber, BUT the drives are anchored to the same perforated panel that the vga uses as an intake. Heck, we (M1 users) have the HDD's on the bottom of the case, barely touching the gpu, and aren't cooking the drives. And I don't even have a fan in there, which means that this has a good chance or working.

Yes, the solution won't be so elegant... but it might work, and you wouldn't have to change barely anything.
The internal chassis is composed of three pieces, and the center piece serves as both the major structural support for the case, as well as compartmentalization of the GPU and mounting for the motherboard and other components:



To relocate the drives to the opposite side and move the GPU over requires a significant redesign of the center section, which has a lot of implications and is quite complex to do. A fairly major redesign, in other words.

Moreover, part of the reason for having the GPU intake close to the side panel vents is to provide some measure of dust control, and moving the GPU to make room for the drives would defeat that purpose.


He isn't competing with RVZ02. No idea why some people get those ideas.

[...]

If you think NCASE's designs have competition, you should look harder. Specially if you want to compare them to Silverstone, because there is absolutely nothing to compare.
I'd say it depends on what people are looking for. From a purely functional standpoint, it doesn't offer anything different. On aesthetic/build quality grounds only, I would expect the number of people willing to pay a 200% premium to be rather small.


Right. I bet the cost was closer to $3000 than $2000.

Hope you guys didn't spend all your money on these designs.
No need to worry about that, prototype costs were significantly less this time around. I've speculated on this before, but I think a company like LL gives high quotes for prototypes to weed out the individuals or small companies that aren't likely to turn into larger recurring orders for them. It's probably not worth their time to deal with one-offs in general. Since we're an established account, there's no need to screen us like that and they can offer us lower prototyping costs.

We're also lucky to have a fairly successful product (the M1) that allows us a bit of an R&D budget to play with. If we didn't have that to fall back on, I think we'd be under a lot more pressure to go ahead with the design as-is, to try and recoup the investment, and be able to continue in the future. This is why, I think, it was a prudent decision to go with a relatively conservative design for our first attempt; the console-style case is proving to be quite a challenge, and it's likely we wouldn't have been as successful with it as we have with the M1.


I actually think that if Necere's going to get back to drawing board for the case now then he might consider re-targeting the hardware for it and fitting for example only short itx cards but making it properly vented including the drives.
I've been thinking along these lines, too. Aside from size, ITX GPUs have an advantage of effectively capping the maximum TDP of the card to around half of a full-length card, which is easier to cool effectively. One disadvantage, as you're no doubt aware, is that at least with a slim, console-style case you don't really save much space with an ITX GPU, on account of needing room for the PSU anyway. I wouldn't normally consider an external PSU, but this might be one situation in which it makes some sense.

The way I see it is there are two possible ways forward for a console-style case: smaller, with ITX GPU and possibly external PSU, as above; or larger (~RVZ01 size), with proper dedicated GPU cooling, support for taller CPU coolers, SFX PSU, etc. And also just maybe something a bit more unique ;)
 
or larger (~RVZ01 size), with proper dedicated GPU cooling, support for taller CPU coolers, SFX PSU, etc. And also just maybe something a bit more unique ;)

I thought that's what we are doing.
 
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I thought that's what we are doing.
That's the way I'm leaning, yes. Anything smaller for a slim console-style case largely precludes case fans for optimal cooling and dust control, which is what I'm focusing on now. Vents-on-every-side, like the M1, does allow you to make things smaller, but the compromises aren't really worth it IMO.
 
ITX GPUs have an advantage of effectively capping the maximum TDP of the card to around half of a full-length card, which is easier to cool effectively. One disadvantage, as you're no doubt aware, is that at least with a slim, console-style case you don't really save much space with an ITX GPU, on account of needing room for the PSU anyway.

True. Though it wouldn't necessarily make it much smaller it could solve the drive problems. With nvidia jumping on the HBM wagon (next generation?) we might see most reference GPU shrinking significantly in size anyway so this might not be that much of a compromise anyway.

Actually, if this happens the mid tower case could be in danger of being kicked off it's throne at some point.

The way I see it is there are two possible ways forward for a console-style case: smaller, with ITX GPU and possibly external PSU, as above; or larger (~RVZ01 size), with proper dedicated GPU cooling, support for taller CPU coolers, SFX PSU, etc. And also just maybe something a bit more unique ;)

Generally I would think you'd both loose some, and gain other potential customers going this route. I think generally for people going for a console or HTPC type PC for the living room a bit of a size increase wouldn't be that much of an issue. On the other hand, the bigger it gets, the less likely people are to want to put it vertically on a stand. That group of people would probably go for something else.

Presonally I am after the console, but I'd rather see the GPU support limited than a size increase though. It's not that I'm completely put off by a bigger one, but I'd have to see it to know if i still want it or not.

In this congregation volume is the anti Christ though, so if it ends up bigger than the M1 it's probably going to be regarded as a step back:)
 
Well, there is some ventilation - the top vents extend partly over the drive area:



Granted it's not a lot, and I was thinking (before deciding on a full redesign) to add some vents to the rear as well.

I'd be interested to see what one (or two) 80 mm case fans would do to remove built up heat. Not sure if you can wedge some in there or not? They may remove built up heat, but that's all though. Also, I wonder if your vent screen has any significant effect on ventilation?
 
I meant that if LRPC isn't going to pursue smallest and slickest design then I think it's got be something a class better than the mainstream cases there on the market.

LRPC would deliver that but at a price tag between $200 and $250 (which I'd assume for it) I think most people would want to put some high powered cards inside.

I didn't get the M1 because it was the smallest case available at the moment, and I think 99% of the users followed the same logic. I bought it because of "the whole package". Yes, the case cost me 3 times what any other case would have costed... and? Value is not about cost. In fact, they have no relation at all.

For me, the case is a very important part of the system and, as its something you get to see every single day, it is very important for me. Not size-wise, since I have as much space as I want to have, but in every other aspect that is measurable. Size is only the result of going the space-efficiency route. But I'd have bought the M1 if it were twice the size, so long as it kep being space efficient.

Can you get cases for $50? Of course. Does it make the M1 expensive at $350 (which is what I paid, more or less)? Not at all. Again, you seem to compare products that have no relation. I'm not paying only for probably the best craftmanship in the industry (sans Abee and the other Japanese brand I can't remember), I'm paying for many other things. And since I value all those other things, price is not something I pursue, as its not even secondary to me.

I'm saying this because you keep comparing things that have 0 relation. You might do that because you also have a design, and are trying to understand the logic of the industry... but you are doing it wrong. You need to stop looking at price as if it were the most important thing... because it isn't, not when you aren't trying to have the highest selling product in the industry.

What you need to factor is...

a) Looks.
b) Materiales and finishing.
c) Functionality.
d) Target market.

Again, you have to forget about costs, or prices. Cost is only important to rule whether something is profitable or not, nothing else. Why? Because you do not set the price. The market does... if you want to max your profits, that is.

Tell me: we have computer users that spend many hundreds in things such as keyboards (I do). So nerdy that they even consider the material used in the keycaps, and the printing process, in order to choose between keycaps. Such users also consider the colors, combinations, layouts... they even consider custom keyboards (worth hundreds of $), custom cases for they keyboards... and there are thousands of users like that, like me. Do you really thing that, for people that truly love their computers, that love every screw of it, it matters if a case they like costs $50 or $500? It doesn't. It doesn't at all.

Sure, you put such a case into Walmart and you will sell none.. but because Walmart users aren't your target market. Its something simple enough to understand. For instance, your layout seems to be very efficient, well thought... but I'd never have such a case on my desk. Simply put: the package it offers is not what I'm looking at... and thus I'm not your target market unless the case was super cheap... And I'm not critizicing... just stating that not every product is for every user.

I actually think that if Necere's going to get back to drawing board for the case now then he might consider re-targeting the hardware for it and fitting for example only short itx cards but making it properly vented including the drives.

Well, the problem there is that if the ITX vga market doesn't grow... you are basically fucked :D

And even now you are fucked looking at the squealing Nanos :cool:

This is not about build quality or what you think looks nice for a case. In terms of functionality the LRPC offers nothing that others SteamBox cases aren't already doing. The only unique thing about the LRPC is the broad use of aluminium - that leads to thermal problems that other SteamBoxes don't seem to have - and the lack of an optical drive. There is nothing where the LRPC excels above the competition apart from clean looks - which are a matter of taste. But the LRPC might cost 250€ with tax and shipping, while here in Europe you can buy the Silverstone SteamBox cases for 80€ at every corner. What do you think which case most people will choose?

Who said this is only about build quality? I certainly didn't. This is about what every potential customer wants to make it about. Its everybodies choice.

All in all, you keep comparing products that have no relation (custom vs standard, aluminum vs steel+plastic, community vs industry, etc), and products that focus incredibly different targets. Heck, Silverstone is not targetting the high end (computer case-wise) enthusiasts because it doesn't know how to do so, or is not interested. They have done more than their fair share regarding SFX psu's, I'll give them that, but to assume that the RVZx compare to LRPC, or Dondan's idea... makes 0 sense.

Also, aluminum has nothing to do with the problems Necere is facing. Absolutely nothing. If the case were steal, or plastic, you would have the same problems. Maybe you would need longer periods for the problems to show up... but if a case has poor ventilation in some areas, that will show, sooner or later.

You only have to take a look at the Steambox designs to see that they are completely different from Necere's, regarding drives isolation and placement into the general layout. Its not some voodoo, or aluminum that is causing the heating problems.

The M1 is a completely different story. Not only is it one of the most beautiful cases available, it also offers unrivaled functionality in a tiny form factor. The next best thing to the M1 is probably three times larger or offers only have of its functionality (Cougar CBX). If you want a case like the M1, you can only buy the M1. But if you want small SteamBox case, you can just grab a Raven RVZ02 or Milo ML08. And that's what most people would do. They might admire the looks of the LRCP, but in the end they grab the case that is three times cheaper and performs better.

Again, how exactly do you compare the RVZ02 or ML08 with the LRPC? Then say that the M1 has no comparison?

Heck they are all cases. And heck again, unless you are really size-limited (which I bet only a small fraction of M1 users really were), size is not something that you require. In fact, the M1 is a pain in the ass case to work with because of its size. Yes, its miles better than other offerings that are bigger... but its a difficult case to work with. And I love every inch of it, but small cases aren't easy to work with.

So why did I buy it? Because I love every bit of what it represents. That doesn't mean I needed a small case like that, or I needed something that space efficient. Not at all. As I said, I would have bought the case so long as it kept NCASEs phisolophy disregarding the size, and I would bet money that many users did the same.

All in all, you have to stop comparing things. NCASE is a small "boutique", that sells very special items to a very special target market. The day it stops doing that, the day it trys to compete with the big brands (and target a different democraphic) they will die as a company, because what makes them special ain't their prices, but everything else.

I appreciate that, but it's less about giving up and more about reworking things until the design is good enough.


Well, there is some ventilation - the top vents extend partly over the drive area:



Granted it's not a lot, and I was thinking (before deciding on a full redesign) to add some vents to the rear as well.


The internal chassis is composed of three pieces, and the center piece serves as both the major structural support for the case, as well as compartmentalization of the GPU and mounting for the motherboard and other components:



To relocate the drives to the opposite side and move the GPU over requires a significant redesign of the center section, which has a lot of implications and is quite complex to do. A fairly major redesign, in other words.

Moreover, part of the reason for having the GPU intake close to the side panel vents is to provide some measure of dust control, and moving the GPU to make room for the drives would defeat that purpose.

Oh, now I understand what you mean when you say it would require a huge redesign. Of course, the mid-panel not only creates the different chambers... its probably the main structural piece in the whole case. Mmmm, I see it.

BTW, any chance you could take some pictures at it with hardware installed? I have some ideas, but seeing hardware inside might make things a lot easier to imagine.


I'd say it depends on what people are looking for. From a purely functional standpoint, it doesn't offer anything different. On aesthetic/build quality grounds only, I would expect the number of people willing to pay a 200% premium to be rather small.

I'll tell you what.

Do you know if googledocs has any option to make a survey and send it to all the contacts in a certain group?

What I'm saying is that... why don't you ask your userbase? You have many hundreds of M1 cases sold (I'm actually curious as to how many have been sold. The more the merrier, since my V1 might become a classic :D :cool: ). And you also have a heck of a lot of those users using the googledocs we created some time ago. Why don't you ask the ones that already have an NCASE product to see what do they have to say on the matter?

IMO, that would be the most efficient way of solving a problem, as you have a userbase... but you do not really know what made them buy the M1, as you never asked directly :D

It should be pretty easy to analyze what kind of users form your demographic... not that you should limit only to those that already have your products... but its a better starting point than none.

No need to worry about that, prototype costs were significantly less this time around. I've speculated on this before, but I think a company like LL gives high quotes for prototypes to weed out the individuals or small companies that aren't likely to turn into larger recurring orders for them. It's probably not worth their time to deal with one-offs in general. Since we're an established account, there's no need to screen us like that and they can offer us lower prototyping costs.

We're also lucky to have a fairly successful product (the M1) that allows us a bit of an R&D budget to play with. If we didn't have that to fall back on, I think we'd be under a lot more pressure to go ahead with the design as-is, to try and recoup the investment, and be able to continue in the future. This is why, I think, it was a prudent decision to go with a relatively conservative design for our first attempt; the console-style case is proving to be quite a challenge, and it's likely we wouldn't have been as successful with it as we have with the M1.

As always, thanks for the input, and I'm happy that the enterprise is profitable for both of you. And I hope you are milking the cow as much as possible, you truly deserve it, and you have to make it worth your time in order to keep creating (and delivering, we do not forget youu, W360 :D ) products.


I've been thinking along these lines, too. Aside from size, ITX GPUs have an advantage of effectively capping the maximum TDP of the card to around half of a full-length card, which is easier to cool effectively. One disadvantage, as you're no doubt aware, is that at least with a slim, console-style case you don't really save much space with an ITX GPU, on account of needing room for the PSU anyway. I wouldn't normally consider an external PSU, but this might be one situation in which it makes some sense.

The way I see it is there are two possible ways forward for a console-style case: smaller, with ITX GPU and possibly external PSU, as above; or larger (~RVZ01 size), with proper dedicated GPU cooling, support for taller CPU coolers, SFX PSU, etc. And also just maybe something a bit more unique ;)

Id rather you do not go the ubertiny-ITX route. Why? Because its very risky, as you would rely on the super tiny form factor succeeding... and looking at the Nano, with all its squealing problems... I'm not sure we are just there, yet.

If we are talking about something a bit bigger, though... you might want to look at this offerings: DIGITALSTORM Bolt and Falcon Tiki. IMO, they are both very nice packages.
 
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Wow, I don't even... You didn't get that's just what I was addressing here.

Like I said before target price above $200 is connected to the fact that there are people willing to spend more for better product (just as you said here) and my point is, if you're willing to spend more on the case, then also there will be some people who'd like to own this case and buy the best stuff there is on the market regardless of the price (high-end gpu's for example like 980TI/TitanX).

Which gets us back to you pointing out my fault while I stated correctly that such high end product, which LRPC is meant to be, is going to lack in functionality if it's not supporting the high-end gpu's (by overheating them and drives)
 
Wow, I don't even... You didn't get that's just what I was addressing here.

Like I said before target price above $200 is connected to the fact that there are people willing to spend more for better product (just as you said here) and my point is, if you're willing to spend more on the case, then also there will be some people who'd like to own this case and buy the best stuff there is on the market regardless of the price (high-end gpu's for example like 980TI/TitanX).

Which gets us back to you pointing out my fault while I stated correctly that such high end product, which LRPC is meant to be, is going to lack in functionality if it's not supporting the high-end gpu's (by overheating them and drives)

None of your comments stated anything even close to this.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I was considering a case that can't accept high end hardware because it cooks them inside :rolleyes:
 
None of your comments stated anything even close to this.

I did say that people paying $200 bucks might want to put 250W cards there didn't I? And while I didn't explain there why because it seems so obvious to me, you've had to come here and state that I don't get it and put this whole wall of text here.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I was considering a case that can't accept high end hardware because it cooks them inside :rolleyes:

I did consider it and you were countering my statement on this...
 
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Like I said before target price above $200 is connected to the fact that there are people willing to spend more for better product (just as you said here) and my point is, if you're willing to spend more on the case, then also there will be some people who'd like to own this case and buy the best stuff there is on the market regardless of the price (high-end gpu's for example like 980TI/TitanX).

Since I handled most (if not all) of the email inquiries about this project. In my opinion, I am less concerned about reaching Minimum Order Quantity than product issue (thermal).

Also, the price is reflective of sourcing. Managing components costs (riser cards, USB and etc...), SECC production and reducing overall price, are all potentially solvable at this point. I have been researching this stuff for years, not just for this project, but for the SFF collective as well. When I have more time, hopefully I can make progress in this area. Bottom line is, it's not the core problem.

At the end of the day, if both of us are not comfortable with the end product, then we are not going to release it.



In this congregation volume is the anti Christ though, so if it ends up bigger than the M1 it's probably going to be regarded as a step back:)

Speaking for myself, size increase is that evil.

While I don't have an exact estimate, I believe a material % of M1 and potential LRPC customers are not from this forum. While a reasonable size increase is not welcomed (not by me at least), I don't know how damaging it would be to the project.



or larger (~RVZ01 size), with proper dedicated GPU cooling, support for taller CPU coolers, SFX PSU, etc. And also just maybe something a bit more unique ;)

This direction *should lead to something pretty cool.

To me, even if the project get cancelled, LRPC prototype is mine, so I already have what I want ;)
 
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Since I handled most (if not all) of the email inquiries about this project. In my opinion, I am less concerned about reaching Minimum Order Quantity than product issue (thermal).

Also, the price is reflective of sourcing. Managing components costs (riser cards, USB and etc...), SECC production and reducing overall price, are all potentially solvable at this point. I have been researching this stuff for years, not just for this project, but for the SFF collective as well. When I have more time, hopefully I can make progress in this area. Bottom line is, it's not the core problem.

At the end of the day, if both of us are not comfortable with the end product, then we are not going to release it.

Yeah, I get it. I'm not talking about the price itself but the consequences it brings with self. You have to have some added value to the product if you want the client to pay the premium price. So if you're having problems with thermals then your functional design is lacking regardless of however awesome the case look from the outside and what high end materials will you use to manufacture it.

I'm not saying that it won't sell. I'm rather saying that if you release an under-performing product then your brand created by awesome M1 might be hurt by that. And in extreme situations you might lose money due to returns if lets say 200 people from the forum buy it knowing those conditions BUT in total you'll sell 2000 units and there'll be a lot of people not knowing you can't put 250W gpu in there.
 
Yeah, I get it. I'm not talking about the price itself but the consequences it brings with self. You have to have some added value to the product if you want the client to pay the premium price. So if you're having problems with thermals then your functional design is lacking regardless of however awesome the case look from the outside and what high end materials will you use to manufacture it.

I'm not saying that it won't sell. I'm rather saying that if you release an under-performing product then your brand created by awesome M1 might be hurt by that. And in extreme situations you might lose money due to returns if lets say 200 people from the forum buy it knowing those conditions BUT in total you'll sell 2000 units and there'll be a lot of people not knowing you can't put 250W gpu in there.

If they release an under-performing product the brand and everything is dead. It would be suicide.

Which is why they will never ever do it.
 
Yeah, that's why I did discuss the drives over the gpu, and the 250W gpu's in $200+ price tag in the first place.

Anyway I wonder if there's any proper direction to go with this project IF Necere doesn't want to go with drives mounted like in Node 202 and probably our conditional approach is also out of the picture.
 
The way I see it is there are two possible ways forward for a console-style case: smaller, with ITX GPU and possibly external PSU, as above; or larger (~RVZ01 size), with proper dedicated GPU cooling, support for taller CPU coolers, SFX PSU, etc. And also just maybe something a bit more unique ;)

I would love to see the second option. The RVZ01 is not that much larger than the RVZ02 or the LRPC, and if you can keep the depth of the care to a bare minimum unlike Silverstone did (just leave enough room for my ASUS R9 Fury, thanks!), the case would still be small, especially with the tiny footprint in vertical orientation.

I always wondered, if you fit could an ATX PSU or a 120mm water-cooler into the RVZ01, and I'm sure that some modders actually did that. Maybe that's something you should explore: A slightly larger RVZ01 with a non-ugly exterior and the modular functionality of the M1. As additional cooling options you could add fan mounts for 92mm fans above the GPU (due to the small dimensions of the case they probably don't have to run fast to show the hot air where to leave the case).
 
I would love to see the second option. The RVZ01 is not that much larger than the RVZ02 or the LRPC, and if you can keep the depth of the care to a bare minimum unlike Silverstone did (just leave enough room for my ASUS R9 Fury, thanks!), the case would still be small, especially with the tiny footprint in vertical orientation.

I always wondered, if you fit could an ATX PSU or a 120mm water-cooler into the RVZ01, and I'm sure that some modders actually did that. Maybe that's something you should explore: A slightly larger RVZ01 with a non-ugly exterior and the modular functionality of the M1. As additional cooling options you could add fan mounts for 92mm fans above the GPU (due to the small dimensions of the case they probably don't have to run fast to show the hot air where to leave the case).

We're figuring it out if 120mm WC is possible in our case but it would be entirely possible if design did target such thing from the start:

Little update:

After some minor tweaks that enlarged the holes in the central wall for better cable management it occurs that now you should be able to fit 120mm cooler inside but there's some limits:

- Radiator + Fan thickness combined has to be 48mm max, so it looks like 32mm radiator + low profile 16mm thick fan.
- ITX sized gpu, max 175mm but if pcb is oversized then you'll need modded low profile PEG connector
- SFX 100mm long psu only
- power button removed from the front and plugged by something like black 16mm round plug
- some additional cable mess to manage by yourself
- either really tight bend of water cooling pipes or secondary hard drive slot in front of PSU obstructed



Also I'm not sure about the airflow for this AIO but it might be a positive thing for the gpu since it'll make the air move at the back of gpu. You'll have to see if that warm air from cpu cooling will make it better or worse for gpu.

Also we're not targeting this feature by default but easing the option to install something like this since people keep asking about that.

I think with current LRPC dimensions it would be even possible to fit either 140mm AIO or 120mm with SFX-L. That might be worth chasing if the fan on radiator was going to enforce the airflow through the drives that are over the gpu.
 
The internal chassis is composed of three pieces, and the center piece serves as both the major structural support for the case, as well as compartmentalization of the GPU and mounting for the motherboard and other components:


PLEASE tell me that is the ODD slot/hole on the front panel
 
Well, there is some ventilation - the top vents extend partly over the drive area:



Granted it's not a lot, and I was thinking (before deciding on a full redesign) to add some vents to the rear as well.

I'd be interested to see what one (or two) 80 mm case fans would do to remove built up heat. Not sure if you can wedge some in there or not? They may remove built up heat, but that's all though. Also, I wonder if your vent screen has any significant effect on ventilation?

I think if the middle 2.5 inch drive location was cut out there would only be room for a 60 mm fan to draw air off the back of the graphics card and pressurize the drive compartment to force the warm air out the top vents. Small fans are notoriously loud, but Noctua makes some that it claims are quiet and their specifications have been shown to be reliable. A small quiet 60 mm fan would not generate much airflow, but it might be enough.

Another spot for a small fan might be underneath the graphics card (in line with the PCI-E slot and above the PS cable in the above image (use a fan grill)) with the fan extending partway through a hole in the partition that separates the graphics card from the 2.5 inch drives. The idea is the fan could blow air upwards towards both the bottom edge of the graphics card and up through the drive compartment. A hole would be needed under the fan so that it could draw air from the motherboard/PSU compartment or the front panel area.
 
I think if the middle 2.5 inch drive location was cut out there would only be room for a 60 mm fan to draw air off the back of the graphics card and pressurize the drive compartment to force the warm air out the top vents. Small fans are notoriously loud, but Noctua makes some that it claims are quiet and their specifications have been shown to be reliable. A small quiet 60 mm fan would not generate much airflow, but it might be enough.

Another spot for a small fan might be underneath the graphics card (in line with the PCI-E slot and above the PS cable in the above image (use a fan grill)) with the fan extending partway through a hole in the partition that separates the graphics card from the 2.5 inch drives. The idea is the fan could blow air upwards towards both the bottom edge of the graphics card and up through the drive compartment. A hole would be needed under the fan so that it could draw air from the motherboard/PSU compartment or the front panel area.

Maybe something like this :D

bDyD9lV.png
 
Wow, I didn't know there was enough room for an 80mm (judging from its length compared to the SSD drive). I see there are two sets of fan mounting holes. 80 and 92 mm? Also, are thin fans needed?

I don't think that drawing some air from the back of the graphics card will affect the airflow very much to the GPU heatsink, but will benefit the 2.5 inch drives by stimulating some airflow in that compartment.

The rapid advancement of M.2 drives will mitigate the loss of one 2.5 inch drive bay. BTW, would it be possible to stack two 7 mm drives as in the M1?
 
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Maybe something like this :D

bDyD9lV.png

What are you waiting for? Take the saw and DO IT! :D :D :D :D

I actually think it should have a very positive effect regarding the cooling of the chambers. For starters it allows the drive chamber to dissipate the heat by removing air... and, secondly, it creates an airflow around the back of the card that should mitigate the heat created there. I have to admit that it wouldn't look incredibly good... but it might work. Even a slow moving slim fan should do it, and sacrificing 1 of those drives doesn't seem to be a problem to me, deffinitely not at all.
 
BTW, would it be possible to stack two 7 mm drives as in the M1?

Should be able to assuming we don't add more clearance between the GPU backplate and the chassis.

Take the saw and DO IT! :D :D :D :D

We have been thinking about this solution for a while. The 80mm fan and fan duct provides addition exhaust.

Since the solution is a hack (and very similar to other LRPC available) - it's just not good enough.

While we disagree on a lot of things, we both don't like hacked / crude designs, that's why we haven't moved forward with it yet. Good things take time, so we will think more about it.

Necere has been working on another design for the last year, maybe we will try that now.
 
Wow, I didn't know there was enough room for an 80mm (judging from its length compared to the SSD drive).
It's a 92mm fan, actually.

I see there are two sets of fan mounting holes. 80 and 92 mm? Also, are thin fans needed?
Yes, a slim fan is required. The drive compartment is only 26mm wide, so unless more vent holes are added to the side panel, it will only work with a slim fan (10-15mm thick).

I don't think that drawing some air from the back of the graphics card will affect the airflow very much to the GPU heatsink, but will benefit the 2.5 inch drives by stimulating some airflow in that compartment.
It depends. I designed a duct which directs the exhaust out the back, in which case it won't affect airflow in the drive compartment. If the fan were run without the duct it would obviously have some impact, however.

BTW, would it be possible to stack two 7 mm drives as in the M1?
Yes, though the M1's stacking brackets work better in theory than in practice due to the drive power cables often needing more room (or modding) for the drives to be so close. Because of that, I didn't intend for the stacking brackets to be used in this design. Not that they couldn't... I just wasn't planning on including them.


BTW, this is the kludgey solution I alluded to previously. Even if it improves things (and there's no guarantee it would help much), it's an ugly fix for what is a fundamentally flawed design. The fact that it essentially requires people to buy an uncommon fan size for proper cooling makes it a non-starter IMO.
 
BTW, this is the kludgey solution I alluded to previously. Even if it improves things (and there's no guarantee it would help much), it's an ugly fix for what is a fundamentally flawed design. The fact that it essentially requires people to buy an uncommon fan size for proper cooling makes it a non-starter IMO.

What if some holes were added to the horizontal plate (when the case is vertical) between the bottom and top compartments? Would this increase the convective airflow through the drive compartment without adding a fan?
 
What if some holes were added to the horizontal plate (when the case is vertical) between the bottom and top compartments? Would this increase the convective airflow through the drive compartment without adding a fan?
The drive compartment is already open to the lower (motherboard/PSU) compartment, though with cables in airflow is fairly restricted.
 
Would something like a PCI slot blower help?
The fan is essentially acting like a blower because of the duct. I wanted to avoid a blower though, since availability, quality, and noise are all likely worse than a slim fan.
 
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