The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

[Phuncz]

So prettay !! It looks like another pro-designed high-end piece of case art in it's current state.

If the stand isn't sure, here's an idea: why not have it double as a handle for transport ?
I'm thinking about two arched bars that are flat ( ) when in "stand-mode" and fold together like briefcase handles to form a handle.

 

[SaperPL]

There's an aluminum partition and multiple air gaps between the GPU and the drives, so I don't think heat will be an issue for them. It goes GPU -> 5mm air gap -> 1.5mm aluminum partition -> 6mm air gap -> drive bracket, with another ~1.5mm air gap provided by the rubber mounting grommets.

But have you tested this yet? I'm not so sure if that's enough.

Some notes on the latest revision and prototype:

• The height has been increased to 348mm
• Width has been increased to 84mm

So you're now on 9.76L of volume. If your price tag gonna be around $200 then are you any real competition to the Node 202 which is only 0.5L bigger for $79? Except for non-plastic classy looks you're not a competition unless you get the deal with Lian Li to mainstream this case and make it for a $99 price tag to compete with Fractal Design.

 

[vipz]

What is the significance of the 60mm CPU cooler support?


On an unrelated note, for some reason this shot really reminds me of the old style Cooler Master ATCS cases.

 

[Optik]

But have you tested this yet? I'm not so sure if that's enough.


So you're now on 9.76L of volume. If your price tag gonna be around $200 then are you any real competition to the Node 202 which is only 0.5L bigger for $79? Except for non-plastic classy looks you're not a competition unless you get the deal with Lian Li to mainstream this case and make it for a $99 price tag to compete with Fractal Design.

design, metal, reusability

this is not hardware that's going to be outdated in 1.6 years. the mitx is here for atleast another 10 years.

 

[SaperPL]

except for the only metal part, I don't get the rest of your arguments - Like yeah, Node 202 also uses mITX as well as the silversone RVZ01/02 do. And you'll be able to reuse it as well. Node 202's design ain't that bad except its plastic mostly so depending on it's quality it might get old.

 

[Necere]

If the stand isn't sure, here's an idea: why not have it double as a handle for transport ?
I'm thinking about two arched bars that are flat ( ) when in "stand-mode" and fold together like briefcase handles to form a handle.

That's a neat idea, but probably not feasible for us. Moving parts made from metal will end up feeling loose and cheap, unless very precisely machined, or by using dampened hinges/springs. Either would add complexity and cost, and are not part of Lian Li's standard production process.

But have you tested this yet? I'm not so sure if that's enough.

I haven't tested it (the prototype is still at Lian Li), but why wouldn't it be? There are three modes of heat transfer to be concerned about: conduction, convection, and radiation.

First, there is no physical contact between the back of the video card and the chassis, nor between the drives and the chassis. The drive screws are attached via rubber grommets, which is a poor thermal conductor. So conduction is not a concern.

Regarding convection, the partitioned chassis effectively prevents most of the GPU's exhaust airflow from spilling into the rest of the case. There are a few larger cutouts for cable passthrough and some smaller ones for cable ties around the periphery of the drives, but the large majority of exhaust air will exit through vents at the top of the case. The warm GPU exhaust that does leak into the CPU/drive side will be very limited, and certainly less of a concern than in many other cases where the GPU is not partitioned. So convection shouldn't be a significant concern.

Lastly, thermal radiation. The back of the GPU will radiate heat into the partition, that part is true. However, the partition has a much greater surface area than the chips/VRMs on the back of the GPU. They might get up to 90C, but how much thermal energy is it actually radiating? Let's say it's enough to raise the temperature of some localized hotspots on the partition to 50 or 60C, which then re-rediates some of the heat towards the drives. What can we expect? 10C rise over ambient, maybe? Keep in mind the partition functions as a heat spreader between the GPU and the drives, and as an integral part of the chassis it has a considerable dissipation area. There will be some passive airflow between the partition and the drives as well, driven by the CPU cooler exhaust. Radiative heating is the most significant mode of thermal transfer to be concerned with here, but nevertheless I believe it won't be an issue for the reasons I've given.

So you're now on 9.76L of volume. If your price tag gonna be around $200 then are you any real competition to the Node 202 which is only 0.5L bigger for $79? Except for non-plastic classy looks you're not a competition unless you get the deal with Lian Li to mainstream this case and make it for a $99 price tag to compete with Fractal Design.

Well, we never set out to compete with anyone on price. It's a forgone conclusion - we simply don't have the resources to do so. The goal instead is to offer something that's a cut above what everyone else is offering. There are people who would never consider paying over $100 for a case, and that's fine. That market is well served already. Manufacturers have to cut a lot of corners to get to those low prices - paper-thin steel, cheap plastic, unfinished interiors, etc. - and some people will be content with those tradeoffs. But the old adage tends to be true - you get what you pay for.

You know, the M1 is expensive compared to other cases of its size. Yet, time after time I see comments from people saying how impressed they are by the quality of the construction and design, and how the high price was completely worth it once they had it in their hands. So clearly there are people willing to pay for the extra quality. That's what we're offering.

Regarding size, I wouldn't necessarily place so much emphasis on that as a deciding factor. The volume difference between this case, the Node202, or RVZ02 is not that great, and for many people any other factor could easily carry more weight (e.g., CPU cooler support, large GPU support, ODD/drive support, price/availability, looks).

What is the significance of the 60mm CPU cooler support?

I talked about it a bit earlier in the thread. 57-60mm is the height of the lowest profile CPU coolers with fans larger than 92mm (using slim 100-120mm fans). To name a few: Scythe Big Shuriken 2, Thermalright AXP-100, Cooler Master GeminII M4, Akasa Nero LX, Reeven Brontes and Steropes, Gelid Slim Hero, Deepcool Gabriel.

 

[veryrarium]

I read Necere's comment on the thermal problem exhibited by Node 202 @SPCR, so I assume the top vent in Necere's design will take care of the GPU exhaust well in case of using a GPU with an open air cooler.

 

[dondan]

Nice look . I love the complexity of the internal alu parts. Dan did a good job .

I think you will not have any problems with the temps of the SSDs over the GPU. Before the A4 I made a Steam machine style case for my own with the same position for SSDs and I had no problems with the temps too.

 

[esplin2966]

Love the design. It looks even better than in the renders. Looking forward to seeing the finished versions

Is the standoff part of the case made of solid pieces of aluminum? If so, that's pretty sick!

I do have one concern: The bottom vent (the side facing the ground) is exhausting hot air, correct? There is an intake area directly beside one side of it. Could there be hot air re-circulation? See the diagram below for clarification:

I'm not sure if this could be a big enough issue to warrant any action. Probably not. But I think a simple solution would be to block one side of the case stand so that hot air only exits from the side that isn't close to an air vent.

 

[Necere]

Is the standoff part of the case made of solid pieces of aluminum? If so, that's pretty sick!

It's three parts: 4mm sheet for the base, two 15mm thick machined blocks for the supports. As I said though, we may go with a different design for cost reasons.

I do have one concern: The bottom vent (the side facing the ground) is exhausting hot air, correct? There is an intake area directly beside one side of it. Could there be hot air re-circulation?

The bottom vent serves as the sole exhaust for the PSU, and partial exhaust for the CPU cooler (the rest will flow through the drive area and out the top, and through the rear vents), so there will be some recirculation. However the exhaust is mixing with ambient air before being drawn in again, so I don't expect it to be a significant issue. The temperature gradient formed by the exhaust venting at the top of the case will also generate an updraft, which will draw in cooler ambient air from the floor around the bottom of the case.

 

[Siba]

It's three parts: 4mm sheet for the base, two 15mm thick machined blocks for the supports. As I said though, we may go with a different design for cost reasons.

Couldn't you basically keep the same shape, but have it 'hollowed out' by reusing the same 4mm sheet, cut into strips that are as wide as you want the blocks high, and then bent into the same shape as the blocks?

 

[esplin2966]

Couldn't you basically keep the same shape, but have it 'hollowed out' by reusing the same 4mm sheet, cut into strips that are as wide as you want the blocks high, and then bent into the same shape as the blocks?

To my understanding, it's fairly difficult to bend a sheet 3 times into a square shape. I'm not sure about the full manufacturing capabilities of Lian Li though. Maybe they can do it.

 

[Necere]

Couldn't you basically keep the same shape, but have it 'hollowed out' by reusing the same 4mm sheet, cut into strips that are as wide as you want the blocks high, and then bent into the same shape as the blocks?

Yeah I thought about something like that, but I want to avoid anything overly fussy. And as esplin said, it's a problem to make.

The alternate stand design is essentially pretty similar, but made from a single piece of 2mm sheet bent over at the ends. Here it is rendered:

 

[callumbolch]

this just keeps getting better and better - cant wait to see some hardware in it!

 

[Siba]

Now that you guys have a prototype, are you planning to do thermal testing like the M1?

 

[Necere]

Now that you guys have a prototype, are you planning to do thermal testing like the M1?

I mean, it's pretty much mandatory. How could I not?

 

[Necere]

W360 thinks maybe the alternate stand is too angled a bit too much, what do you guys think? It's currently at 3 degrees:

 

[yoyo0221]

W360 thinks maybe the alternate stand is too angled a bit too much, what do you guys think? It's currently at 3 degrees:

I have to agree....sorry if this has been asked before but is the stand removable?

BTW, you guys are killing me with all these new cases! I don't need that many PC's at home!

 

[Necere]

I have to agree....sorry if this has been asked before but is the stand removable?

Yes of course. It will also come with round feet to allow for horizontal placement.

 

[yoyo0221]

Awesome! I guess I have to add this case to my collection as well

 

[esplin2966]

W360 thinks maybe the alternate stand is too angled a bit too much, what do you guys think? It's currently at 3 degrees:

I love the angle and think its great as it is

 

[Optik]

I dont have a opinion either way, but I think this new stand fits the lrpc better than the one in the prototype. Cleaner, and its lines are congruent with the case

 

[Phuncz]

I do have one concern: The bottom vent (the side facing the ground) is exhausting hot air, correct? There is an intake area directly beside one side of it. Could there be hot air re-circulation? See the diagram below for clarification:

I think flipping the CPU fan to exhaust would be better anyway, it will have enough holes to get cool air out I'd guess.
But thermal testing will show this, can't wait !

 

[SaperPL]

I haven't tested it (the prototype is still at Lian Li), but why wouldn't it be? There are three modes of heat transfer to be concerned about: conduction, convection, and radiation.

[...]

Lastly, thermal radiation. The back of the GPU will radiate heat into the partition, that part is true. However, the partition has a much greater surface area than the chips/VRMs on the back of the GPU. They might get up to 90C, but how much thermal energy is it actually radiating? Let's say it's enough to raise the temperature of some localized hotspots on the partition to 50 or 60C, which then re-rediates some of the heat towards the drives. What can we expect? 10C rise over ambient, maybe? Keep in mind the partition functions as a heat spreader between the GPU and the drives, and as an integral part of the chassis it has a considerable dissipation area. There will be some passive airflow between the partition and the drives as well, driven by the CPU cooler exhaust. Radiative heating is the most significant mode of thermal transfer to be concerned with here, but nevertheless I believe it won't be an issue for the reasons I've given.

I was worried mostly of the radiation but I guess we'll have to wait and see if it'll work out for every type of cooler. I think it may have a problem with blower type cards in horizontal position - card partition won't be moving so much air around the gpu as with open air coolers and I'm not sure if there's going to be enough airflow from the cpu cooler around the drives.

Well, we never set out to compete with anyone on price. It's a forgone conclusion - we simply don't have the resources to do so. The goal instead is to offer something that's a cut above what everyone else is offering. There are people who would never consider paying over $100 for a case, and that's fine. That market is well served already. Manufacturers have to cut a lot of corners to get to those low prices - paper-thin steel, cheap plastic, unfinished interiors, etc. - and some people will be content with those tradeoffs. But the old adage tends to be true - you get what you pay for.

I don't think that's the case here - simply they're putting their bets on the product and paying more to make big batches of it so the price ends up low. I get it that some manufacturers that make $50 cases cut price on quality but with what I've seen about Node 202 that's not the thing. I believe they only failed by not filtering sides and maybe their plastic might end up being something cheap.

You know, the M1 is expensive compared to other cases of its size. Yet, time after time I see comments from people saying how impressed they are by the quality of the construction and design, and how the high price was completely worth it once they had it in their hands. So clearly there are people willing to pay for the extra quality. That's what we're offering.

But it's not the same situation with the steam machine/sff console sized slim desktop case as it is with M1 which has pretty amazing functionality for its size. You've got almost no functionality advantage over Node 202, maybe except one more 2.5" drive mount and the way those are mounted with grommets + side filters but that's it. And with thickness of 84mm you could probably fit an ODD somewhere in current volume.

Regarding size, I wouldn't necessarily place so much emphasis on that as a deciding factor. The volume difference between this case, the Node202, or RVZ02 is not that great, and for many people any other factor could easily carry more weight (e.g., CPU cooler support, large GPU support, ODD/drive support, price/availability, looks).

If it's not a race to compete in size with consoles than what is it?

 

[Mackan]

Don't like the suggested angled stand, I really prefer symmetry and straightness as much as possible. Otherwise, looking great.

 

[Phuncz]

But it's not the same situation with the steam machine/sff console sized slim desktop case as it is with M1 which has pretty amazing functionality for its size. You've got almost no functionality advantage over Node 202, maybe except one more 2.5" drive mount and the way those are mounted with grommets + side filters but that's it.

It's a high-end case design, the filters, drive-mounts and toolless design are those kind of details that many people find important. Why are you arguing against this project so agressively ?

If it's not a race to compete in size with consoles than what is it?

What competition, what race ? What other high-end Steambox or Living Room PC case is there ?
I only see cheap ones using plastic and steel and/or with a mediocre and shouty design. Many people who spend over $1500 on their PC hardware would also like a more elegant and quality-oriented case.

 

[SaperPL]

Why are you arguing against this project so agressively ?

I'm not arguing against, just trying to understand what's so different about this case that people will pay two or three times more than what's on the market.

For example I don't really get why should we care for anti vibration grommets on the high-end gaming ring at the moment when those are going to use SSD's mostly for gaming and maybe hdd's as secondary data drives but mostly in mid-range pc's. Looking at what's silverstone did there on RVZ02 I'd say they also think about it that way since they made a tool-less mounts for 2.5" but those don't look like something with vibration damping.

Btw the grommets ain't tool-less design since you've got to screw the rubbers to the drive anyway.

What competition, what race ? What other high-end Steambox or Living Room PC case is there ?
I only see cheap ones using plastic and steel and/or with a mediocre and shouty design. Many people who spend over $1500 on their PC hardware would also like a more elegant and quality-oriented case.

Not using plastic lets us waste a bit less space than those mass produced cases so for me that was one of the non-economic reasons to go for such design.

Of course there are cases that, I think look ok and that depends on the end users's taste. ML08 without the plastic window would be ok for me, I think, if not for the 12L volume.

Anyway, for me LRPC was something awesome a year ago when noone touched the subject and console like cases so it was going to be a game changer and now it feels like something that's a bit late and will only end up as nice case for those who want something prestigious and unique(because of the price).

 

[Phuncz]

I'm not arguing against, just trying to understand what's so different about this case that people will pay two or three times more than what's on the market.

It's in the sentence right before the one you quoted and the obvious reasons: build quality, flexibility, finish, features.

For example I don't really get why should we care for anti vibration grommets on the high-end gaming ring at the moment when those are going to use SSD's mostly for gaming and maybe hdd's as secondary data drives but mostly in mid-range pc's.

Because people are still using 3,5" drives in their builds, if you look at the Ncase M1 thread. It was an often-requested feature for this case and it is also for the Kimera Nova. You will undoubtibly have seen the same question in your topic too. So it's logical to assume people will also be wanting to install 2,5" HDDs and you'd want anti-vibration mounting with mechanical storage with a decent case.

Btw the grommets ain't tool-less design since you've got to screw the rubbers to the drive anyway.

Most aren't, like most aspects inside the case. I was talking about the main case panels itself. Not just for ease-of-use but also for a better look (no visible screws).

Anyway, for me LRPC was something awesome a year ago when noone touched the subject and console like cases so it was going to be a game changer and now it feels like something that's a bit late and will only end up as nice case for those who want something prestigious and unique(because of the price).

Isn't your project very similar in format ? I don't get why you would come to this thread to say these cases feels late to the party when your own project is still in prototype stage. I'm also getting the feeling you don't understand why people want to pay more for a case with a thoughtful and elegant design, with a higher build quality and finish.

 

[SaperPL]

Isn't your project very similar in format?

It's very similar yet we're trying to make it as small as possible so it's really within those 7L of volume that usually the consoles initially get. Not the "like console" when talking about stuff like RVZ01 and Digital Storm Bolt but REALLY the same size. That's a bit different project target than just making something stylish in desktop format.

I don't get why you would come to this thread to say these cases feels late to the party when your own project is still in prototype stage.

Yeah, we're late as well but at the same time there's no as small as ours case on the market.

I'm also getting the feeling you don't understand why people want to pay more for a case with a thoughtful and elegant design, with a higher build quality and finish.

I get that. I just don't feel that this case is really so far from RVZ02/ML08 in terms of functional design that it would excuse so high price (considering the initial price for M1 + some high quality riser price).

It's just that I feel it's like sticking "awesome", "high-quality", "thoughtful design" to it so that will make it more of a product than it really is.

It's totally different than how it was with the awesome M1 that was really pushing the edge of what you could fit in such small volume and how functional it was.

But that's just like my opinion, you know

 

[Madao]

W360 thinks maybe the alternate stand is too angled a bit too much, what do you guys think? It's currently at 3 degrees:

Angled stand looks weird to me. Please consider keeping the case level while on stand.

 

[SaperPL]

Angled stand looks weird to me. Please consider keeping the case level while on stand.

I agree - the angled, uneven things work well for tiny details/small objects like WII, nvidia Shield or the NUC's if there are any artistics stands. I think things that are bigger than something like 2 or 3 litres don't feel good with being uneven positioned.

 

[Qrash]

So you're now on 9.76L of volume. If your price tag gonna be around $200 then are you any real competition to the Node 202 which is only 0.5L bigger for $79? Except for non-plastic classy looks you're not a competition unless you get the deal with Lian Li to mainstream this case and make it for a $99 price tag to compete with Fractal Design.

Comparison:

Ncase LRPC:
Dimensions: 348 x 84 x 334 (horizontal WxHxD, mm) (9.76L)
CPU cooler: H = 60 mm
Graphics card: H = 6 inches (152.4 mm), Length ~ 300 mm ?, Width ~ 40 mm ?
Storage: 3 x 2.5 inch drives, optional: 1 x 3.5 inch drive
PS: SFX, Length = ?

(I don't know the length and width limits on the graphics card and the PS length limit)

Fractal Design Node 202:
Dimensions: 377 x82 x 330 (10.2 L)
CPU cooler: H = 56 mm
Graphics card: H = 145 mm, Length = 310 mm, W = 47 mm
Storage: 2 x 2.5 inch drives
PS: SFX , Length = 130 mm

So they're very similar in size (LRPC is 29 mm less wide), which I get is your point, but I think the Ncase will be more flexible and of higher quality.

 

[Qrash]

Some notes on the latest revision and prototype:

• Width has been increased to 84mm, which was needed for the motherboard standoffs and magnetic filter support, while retaining 60mm CPU cooler support.

I did a search on short CPU HSF units, looking at the bigger name brands. I found their heights fell into two categories: less than 40 mm and around 60 mm, but often just over that limit. I'd like to use as much of the 60 mm limit as possible, though proximity to the side panel might result in more noise.

• The new Noctua NH-L9x65 is too tall at 65 mm, even with its thin 14 mm fan.
• The Phanteks PH-TC12LS is 48 mm tall with no fan, so this one too is out (Edit: the 12 mm Scythe Slipstream fan might just fit.)
• Thermaltake only has very short ~40 mm units
• The Thermalright AXP-200 is exactly 60 mm to the top of the fan
• The Zalman CNPS 8900 (Quiet and Extreme models) are 60 mm high to the heatsink fins. The fan sits lower in the center, so I wonder if these would fit with the fins just touching the side panel? I'd consider sanding the fins down a millimeter to eliminate any compression.

The Thermalright AXP-100 is 58 mm tall and it's one of the units that Necere listed. I'm not as as familiar with the rest in his list, so I have more reading to do.

 

[Necere]

I'm not arguing against, just trying to understand what's so different about this case that people will pay two or three times more than what's on the market.

I have exactly the same reservations, and I expressed them previously. We knew there would be functionally equivalent cases coming out in the near future, and the question was whether it was still worth doing. The answer was, we can still try. We'll proceed with the project, launch the campaign, and we'll either meet MOQ, or we won't. If we don't succeed, it will just be a loss of some time and money, and we'll move on to something else.

The functional advantages of the LRPC, as I see it, are more subtle than the M1, but what it comes down to is the balance of features that will hopefully allow for a well-behaved, powerful system in this form factor. Key to that is the component support (larger GPUs and CPU coolers), thermal management, and dust control.

 

[Necere]

The Thermalright AXP-200 is exactly 60 mm to the top of the fan

It's actually 60mm for just the heatsink, so it won't fit with a fan.

The Zalman CNPS 8900 (Quiet and Extreme models) are 60 mm high to the heatsink fins. The fan sits lower in the center, so I wonder if these would fit with the fins just touching the side panel? I'd consider sanding the fins down a millimeter to eliminate any compression.

It should be fine. Clearance to the side panel is actually about 61mm, but the filter sits on the inside of the panel and is about 0.5mm thick.

Noctua is conspicuously absent from the list of coolers at ~60mm tall, which is too bad, but you have to draw the line somewhere. 60mm gives you many more and larger options than anything less, but going a little larger is a case of diminishing returns.

 

[iFreilicht]

Good God, why does everything you guys make have to look so darn sexy? I feel like a lesser designer because of you. The vents are awesome and the way the side panels fold over and how you can detach them both and they overlap the back I/O and everything just looks so good!

Anyway, amazing job on everything. I personally mind how large it is, but I really appreciate the thought you put into this and the way you will show the world once again that SFF is to be taken serious.

I love the angled stand but you will get compared to the Wii inevitably.

 

[rawrr]

Ok, so I want to bring up something that's been talked about a bit so far, which is the size of the case.

Does the size of a case primarily intended for use as an HTPC / Steam Machine really matter that much?

Now, when it comes to a desktop case, I like it small as the next guy does. That's because it's right there in front of me, quite close, and sitting on my desk. But when the case is 8 to 15 feet away (depending on your TV size)?

Furthermore, above it will be a gigantic screen that will dwarf the case in size. As long as the case is around 10L or less, it will feel like a small case when viewed from the couch. I don't think the average person is going to be telling the difference between 8 liters or 10. You've also got to take into account that when you look at your case from your couch, you'll mainly only see that front panel (probably a bit of the side panel too if it's at a slight angle). And when you're comparing sizes of the front panels, there really isn't that much difference between this rectangle and that one.

And that's why I think size isn't as much of a deal that a lot of people make it out to be. Obviously if you set your living room in a way to showcase the chassis, then maybe differences in size will be more visible. But I don't think that's the case for a lot of people, and therefore aesthetics should hold a higher priority.

 

[EdZ]

When stationary in a living room, the main dimensions that matter are width (to roughly match existing AV components), and depth (so you can fit the thing in the cabinet).
But the 'flatter' form factor also works great for portability. The Ncase's squat form factor can be a bit tricky to pack for safe travel, but there are plenty of flight cases designed off-the-shelf for AV components.

 

[SaperPL]

I get the feeling that most of you don't really feel the size of those kind of cases - they tend to look slick amd small but when you see them irl then you really get how NOT tiny are they. So adding to the height makes them feel even more bricky.

LRPC's looks are helping if someone's got other bricky hi-fi hardware but it'll totally stand out from slim and small SAT decoders and blu-ray players. That's of course subjective.

Also stating that it'll mostly be used in front of tv is not backed by any real data and there's a lot of people wanting such small towers standing on their desks and they're talking about the stands here.

 

[Necere]

Good God, why does everything you guys make have to look so darn sexy? I feel like a lesser designer because of you.

Don't be too hard on yourself. I've been at this for a while, and it's still a struggle to come up with good designs that are also feasible to build. The stuff I actually show is only a small fraction of the designs I do - many of which aren't great for one reason or another.


On the subject of size, after having torn down a Steam Machine prototype case and rebuilt it, it became apparent how much of a pain it is to have so little space to work with. If you don't install everything in exactly the right order, and run the cables exactly the right way, you practically have to unscrew everything and start over. Really, those systems were designed to be put together in a factory and not opened by the user after that, save for maybe a drive upgrade. They are that bad. That won't fly with a case that's intended for people build their own systems in, and I think having some extra room for cables etc. is something you can't really appreciate until you actually have to build it, but when you do you'll be glad it's there.