24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

KazeoHin said:
Resolution, pixel density, ease of maintenance. Picture quality? Please. Ten years ago, yes, you had a point. Now? IPS, VA, 144hz 1440p models blow even the best CRTs of old into obsolescence, find a CRT that can output a sharp 4K desktop. Sorry guys. I love the 1969 Corvette, I think it was one of the best cars made. But it's a heavy, clunky unreliable and slow vehicle compared to even a modern Kia. I make no mistakes holding onto the romance by tricking myself into thinking the Vette is a better car.
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For most of us here I think, it's all about raw image quality. On two of the most key factors, black level and dynamic range, desktop LCDs provide no solution.

Maybe you've indeed just never had the chance to see the difference. OLEDs have entered the mix now...maybe check out one of those in a dimmer setting (i.e., without bright store lights flooding everything) and if it's appropriately set up, you'll see what we mean. (Except OLED is of course even better on blacks as JBL indicates.)

As to obsolescence of technology over time...yes that is certainly how it is suppose to work. The huge fail here over the last decade on some critical bits is very frustrating.

(As to cars...commute with the Kia...maybe save the Corvette for fun weekends.)
 
Klarion said:
Maybe from here:

M76TWKZ.png


http://www.displaymate.com/crtvslcd.html
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yea I think that information is rather outdated, if not plain inaccurate. There are plenty LCDs that can produce colors that are far more saturated than any CRT out there.

Yes, a poor black level will reduce saturation, but if the primaries are already saturated enough to begin with, this isn't a problem. More importantly, there are quality LCDs out there with decent black levels.

As for gamma, a decent 8 bit panel can have its gamma easily calibrated with a colorimeter. The grayscale stuff is nonsense. Easily adjusted with the right tools.
 
Black level should be zero. CRTs get much closer. Guess it depends on one's notion of decency. Kidding on the last part. :)
 
That Eizo was an interesting development. And the return of local dimming combined with 4k especially so I thought.
 
That's what you get when you use bundled software to calibrate. With more knowledge and care, one might be able to preserve the deeper blacks. Still, 3000:1 is respectable.

But on the issue of color accuracy, people throw around statements such as "crts are more color accurate than lcds" without even understanding what color accuracy actually means.
 
Random question: Intel and AMD have both made statements about phasing out analog VGA connections (I think by 2015's end). Has Nvidia made a statement on the matter. Should we assume they're on the same timeline?
 
EnhancedInterrogator said:
Random question: Intel and AMD have both made statements about phasing out analog VGA connections (I think by 2015's end). Has Nvidia made a statement on the matter. Should we assume they're on the same timeline?
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No idea. Hopefully outboard video DAC's will come to the rescue. :) Thankfully, there are monster projectors that can still handle high scanrates. These devices push beyond the 121 khz scan limit of the FW900, so I think we should be seeing some outboard DAC's that could push these units. Time will tell.
 
Oh crap. This is happening a lot quicker than what I expected... :(

I don't know exactly what it was, but this morning, I just powered my FW900 up, everything went fine as always. A few secs later I thought I heard a small "tic" the monitor went out of focus for a very short time, maybe half a sec. At that moment, I didn't realize, since I just woke up.
Then 30sec later, it did it again, the exact same thing. This "tic", it's about the same noise as a fly hitting a lightbulb or something like that. At that point, I shut the monitor down, and I powered it back on one minute later. Since that, everything is fine again.

So for the moment my monitor seems to be still ok, but this wasn't normal, do you know if it means something will die soon, like the flyback for example? I've heard stories around here about focus issues and the flyback involved.
 
Yes this was false to say they can not be color accurate. But as i said you cant have both accuracy and quick response time.
 
same thing happened to my older unit. It seemed to go through phases lasting a few days where it would happen once every day or two. Then I'd go for a few months without problem, and then it happened again, and then again resolved. I think it's flyback related, and it's probably a temporary short that gets sorted out once the offending flake or whatever gets burnt away or falls away.
 
Myramond said:
Yes this was false to say they can not be color accurate. But as i said you cant have both accuracy and quick response time.
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yep, and this is the major "feature" which makes CRTs so special, although I'd phrase it more in terms of picture quailty rather than color accuracy. For example, with respect to wider gamut spaces such as Adobe RGB, CRTs are not even close to accurate.
 
Myramond said:
Yes this was false to say they can not be color accurate. But as i said you cant have both accuracy and quick response time.
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xb270hu changes that

actually eizo fs2333 was already pretty good, but it's 60hz and has no strobing so response time doesn't really even matter

personally the biggest problems for lcd are:
1. off-angle/edge backlight glow
2. contrast
3. viewing angles. yes ips viewing angles are not flawless. tilt an ips and its brightness changes significantly (also contrast gets worse and stuff). the argument that viewing angles don't matter because you sit in one position is invalid because unless you sit 10 feet away, the monitor covers quite a bit of your fov and so the lines from your eyes to various parts of the monitor have quite different angles.

basically an image on a crt looks almost like a painting, whereas images on a lcd have this sort of unnatural glow.
 
spacediver said:
same thing happened to my older unit. It seemed to go through phases lasting a few days where it would happen once every day or two. Then I'd go for a few months without problem, and then it happened again, and then again resolved. I think it's flyback related, and it's probably a temporary short that gets sorted out once the offending flake or whatever gets burnt away or falls away.
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Ok I see. Since then, it's working flawlessly, so I'll see in the next couple days. Maybe I should start thinking about how I can get this flyback (or the entire board) replaced. :(
You still have your older FW900? How long did it last with that issue?
 
I have some bad news about my focus issue. I just witnessed something I'll try to describe the best I can.

So I was reading some text, I noticed the monitor going slightly out of focus, it was barely noticable. Then the focus started fluctuating for a min or two, nothing too bad, it wasn't really blurry anyway. The focus was going back and forth, from razor sharp to slightly blurry (more in the angles).
Then suddendly, the whole screen went totally out of focus, things were not readable at all. It lasted about 5 ou 10sec, and then I heard a "pop" not like the sound I heard the first time (see my latest post on the subject), this time is was a bit louder, and the display went back to prefect focus.

While writing that message, it did it again, and it was even worse I think, except for the noise, which was just a light "tic"... :(

I don't want to damage anything else, can someone (Unkle Vito?) tell me if this may be dangerous for other components for example? Anyway, I think I'll let this beast rest for a while, and I hope I can either get the flyback replaced, or get a whole working board to replace the one I have.
 
etienne51 said:
So I was reading some text, I noticed the monitor going slightly out of focus, it was barely noticable. Then the focus started fluctuating for a min or two, nothing too bad, it wasn't really blurry anyway. The focus was going back and forth, from razor sharp to slightly blurry (more in the angles).
Then suddendly, the whole screen went totally out of focus, things were not readable at all. It lasted about 5 ou 10sec, and then I heard a "pop" not like the sound I heard the first time (see my latest post on the subject), this time is was a bit louder, and the display went back to prefect focus.
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yes that was what I was trying to describe with my unit. It went completely out of focus for as long as 10 minutes. Big pop when it went back into focus.

Like I said, it dislpayed this behaviour somewhat regularly for a few days, and then stopped doing it, then it happened again for a few days a few months later, then stopped. It never returned since that last time, and I used the tube for months without issue, though I'm using a newer unit right now.
 
flod said:
personally the biggest problems for lcd are:
1. off-angle/edge backlight glow
2. contrast
3. viewing angles. yes ips viewing angles are not flawless. tilt an ips and its brightness changes significantly (also contrast gets worse and stuff). the argument that viewing angles don't matter because you sit in one position is invalid because unless you sit 10 feet away, the monitor covers quite a bit of your fov and so the lines from your eyes to various parts of the monitor have quite different angles.

basically an image on a crt looks almost like a painting, whereas images on a lcd have this sort of unnatural glow.
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So true. I hate it that LCD's cant show the picture in the same quality from every angle you look at it like CRT's or Plasma's.
 
I bought a monitor from Uncle Vito a few years back, but I am going to have to get rid of it. It still works well, although I would niggle about the sides not being quite aligned any more (just slightly, may not be an issue for anyone except a perfectionist)... I know there are people here who know how to fix that after reading this extensive forum post. If there is someone in the DFW area who wants to make an offer for a known good one of these, let me know. I don't have the box any more, and I don't want to ship it. I can send pictures, etc.
 
Cantroy said:
I bought a monitor from Uncle Vito a few years back, but I am going to have to get rid of it. It still works well, although I would niggle about the sides not being quite aligned any more (just slightly, may not be an issue for anyone except a perfectionist)... I know there are people here who know how to fix that after reading this extensive forum post. If there is someone in the DFW area who wants to make an offer for a known good one of these, let me know. I don't have the box any more, and I don't want to ship it. I can send pictures, etc.
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I do hope that, after all these years using one of our monitor, you are satisfied with the product and its performance...

Thanks for being one of our valuable customer!

Unkle Vito!
 
etienne51 said:
I have some bad news about my focus issue. I just witnessed something I'll try to describe the best I can.

So I was reading some text, I noticed the monitor going slightly out of focus, it was barely noticable. Then the focus started fluctuating for a min or two, nothing too bad, it wasn't really blurry anyway. The focus was going back and forth, from razor sharp to slightly blurry (more in the angles).
Then suddendly, the whole screen went totally out of focus, things were not readable at all. It lasted about 5 ou 10sec, and then I heard a "pop" not like the sound I heard the first time (see my latest post on the subject), this time is was a bit louder, and the display went back to prefect focus.

While writing that message, it did it again, and it was even worse I think, except for the noise, which was just a light "tic"... :(

I don't want to damage anything else, can someone (Unkle Vito?) tell me if this may be dangerous for other components for example? Anyway, I think I'll let this beast rest for a while, and I hope I can either get the flyback replaced, or get a whole working board to replace the one I have.
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PM me ASAP!

UV!
 
I've been noticing a similar issue to Etienne's, though not as severe. My monitor sometimes pops in and out of focus, but it only lasts a split second. It also makes clicking sounds when powering on, changing resolutions, or powering off. I assume that it is a dying transformer. Can this sort of an issue cause more damage if it isn't repaired?
 
rabidz7 said:
I've been noticing a similar issue to Etienne's, though not as severe. My monitor sometimes pops in and out of focus, but it only lasts a split second. It also makes clicking sounds when powering on, changing resolutions, or powering off. I assume that it is a dying transformer. Can this sort of an issue cause more damage if it isn't repaired?
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PM me as well!

UV!
 
rabidz7 said:
It also makes clicking sounds when powering on, changing resolutions, or powering off. I assume that it is a dying transformer. Can this sort of an issue cause more damage if it isn't repaired?
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Clicking sounds, something like a spark or more like a relay contact beeing switched on and off? Because when changing resolutions, I can hear a click, before the tube shuts off, and another click when I get the image back, that's a normal behavior.
 
etienne51 said:
Clicking sounds, something like a spark or more like a relay contact beeing switched on and off? Because when changing resolutions, I can hear a click, before the tube shuts off, and another click when I get the image back, that's a normal behavior.
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It makes repetitive clicking sounds for a number of minutes after powering it off.
 
rabidz7 said:
It makes repetitive clicking sounds for a number of minutes after powering it off.
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Everything you're describing sounds like what happened to my Samsung 900IFT. It would make a huge clicking sound and the picture would go out of focus. It's warm up and cool down sounds eventually started sounding different; you could hear it clicking after you turned it off. One day it started clicking like crazy so I turned it off, then it never turned back on. Well, the tube doesn't display a picture anymore, you can just hear faint clicking from the back of the monitor (maybe the flyback), like it's trying to turn back on.

I may try to investigate one day but all my other CRT's look better anyway.
 
Myramond said:
So true. I hate it that LCD's cant show the picture in the same quality from every angle you look at it like CRT's or Plasma's.
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One of the more off-putting aspects of my Samsung LCD panel is that even though I have adjusted the white balance to be 6500k, the backlight still makes blacks look blueish. Like - too much blue for 6500k blueish. It just looks... Weird.
 
I actually bought a 27 inch good quality monitor, able to display 1440p@120 FPS a while back.

I was playing dark caves in Skyrim, and no matter what I tried, the blacks never got displayed correctly. I could see all walls even in total darkness.

On my trusted sony gdm-fw900, i actually saw NOTHING. Total black.

Apart from the glowing mushrooms on the walls. Those mushrooms gave the entire cave a minuscul eerie feel, as the light they produced made some walls light up a little bit, so that I could see the difference between blacks, just as if your eyes start to adjust to darkness after being in the light.

Suffice to say, I unplugged the expensive flat panel, and went back to my 100 pound CRT.

I sat on my knees before it, and begged forgiveness for my short betrayal.

First game I fired, was Counterstrike, at 180fps. (800x600@180hz I think, flirting with the 121Khz ability of the CRT) Take that, flat panel.
 
Stories like that are always great to read.

I was used to LCDs since a very long time, and when I switched to that FW900 recently, I felt the difference, but it was a bit "weird" at first.
But now I have to go back to my LCD for an unknown period of time, after using only that CRT for about 2 months, I clearly understand what this is all about.
Everything looks washed out on the TN panel. The colors were so much better on the FW900, I didn't even realize at first.
And there is this feeling which makes anything displayed on the FW900 more "alive" than the same thing displayed on the LCD. I don't know, maybe that's because of the glass, maybe that's because of the fact that this is an analog display where we can't see pixels at high resolutions, the picture looks more "solid".

Fortunately, the way I organized things, the only disadvantages of this monitor, are not relevant at all for me right now.
I mean, the size and weight which doesn't matter, the heat it produces are nothing compared to what the PC produces when playing a game anyway. The power draw is the only thing relevant for me, as a drawback, but it's not that huge anyway.
And of course that's an old unit, and it can go wrong at any time. Sadly that's what's happening right now, but I won't give up on that FW900, and I hope I'll be able to find a working D board and/or a NOS (or at least perfectly working) flyback to get it repaired.
Something that makes me laugh sometimes is that, even now with that flyback issue, it still works well enough, pretty much like nothing changed, except when it gets out of focus for a few secs. So I'll be easy on it, and use it only once in a while, waiting for replacement parts.
 
I recently got around to playing Doom 3 - with the amount of fast action in very dark areas this game has its like it was made for the FW900

I've also been playing GTA V on it, and being able to view textures clearly even at high speed in a car is very welcome
 
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Once calibrated, how sharp is the text on these CRT monitors? I recall text always being slightly blurry or blurrier on CRT displays than on LCD displays, which, along with the size, is the only thing that bothers me about CRT monitors.

Also, is it true that ULMB/LightBoost motion on LCD's is only as clear/clean or close to being a clear/clean as CRT's motion when framerate is at 120fps (on LCD's)? Does that mean that ULMB/LightBoost on LCD monitors is significantly slower at 30fps than the same 30fps on CRT monitors, even if CRT monitors' refresh rates are below that of 120Hz, such as 60/75/85Hz?
 
MonarchX said:
Once calibrated, how sharp is the text on these CRT monitors? I recall text always being slightly blurry or blurrier on CRT displays than on LCD displays, which, along with the size, is the only thing that bothers me about CRT monitors.
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According to spacediver and jbltecnicspro, guys who know quite a lot about CRT technology, LCD is gonna be sharper if the dot pitch is the same. How much sharper and what dot pitch is necessary for CRT to have same sharpness as LCD is unknown yet.

jbltecnicspro said:
I do think that the CRT will still be softer than the LCD monitor of equal dot pitch. Reason is in the mechanics behind the CRT. A focused electron beam across a screen won't be as sharp as switched pixels in an LCD. If you're after text clarity, get a shadow mask. Aperture grille monitors are more photo and video work.
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spacediver said:
It kinda depends on what you mean by "equals". I've edited my previous post for clarity, so hopefully it makes more sense now.

Sharpness isn't solely a function of dot pitch. The luminance profile of each pixel is important too. If each pixel is completely filled with a uniform luminance that is completely independent of adjacent pixels, the picture will have maximum sharpness (although it will look pretty harsh if the PPI isn't high enough and if intelligent subpixel rendering isn't used for things like text). A CRT's pixel has a luminance profile that gradually tapers off towards the periphery of each pixel, and this softens the image, even if the dot pitch is very fine.
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spacediver said:
That's what you get when you use bundled software to calibrate. With more knowledge and care, one might be able to preserve the deeper blacks. Still, 3000:1 is respectable.

But on the issue of color accuracy, people throw around statements such as "crts are more color accurate than lcds" without even understanding what color accuracy actually means.
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No it is not, not even my Eizo Foris FG2421's 4700:1 contrast ratio and black levels before / after calibration are dark enough and respectable. 4700:1 contrast ratio is somewhat better by a multiple of ~1.5x-2x than acceptable 3000:1 (~2500:1 in reality) contrast ratio. CRT's, however, excel at that @ contrast ratio. At least new CRT units or units in excellent condition can have nearly infinite contrast ratio. High-end plasma TV's have contrast ratios as high as ~15000(+):1. Now THAT is respectable.

Do do not forget that nearly all 3000:1 VA panels have ~2500:1 contrast ratio even before calibration and usually around ~2400:1 after calibration, but it also varies due to poor uniformity from unit to unit, from model to model, and from location to location on the screen! My FG2421's very center measures ~4000:1, but about 70% of the screen around the center measures ~4500-4700:1 and closer to the edges, contrast ratio falls to as low as ~3700:1. It is another reason why CRT's and plasma TV's are so much better - they have excellent uniformity. Their contrast ratio's stay static around the screen, with very mild fluctuations, if any.

Then there are poor viewing angles on VA panels and gamma shift problems, but not as bad as TN's suckage. FG2421's biggest defect that almost ALL units suffer is from either bad or really bad gamma shift on all the edges. It can be so severe that in some cases it results in obviously brighter image (around the edges), but its mostly limited to specific grayscale levels when they are viewed as fullscreen patterns. It is usually most noticeable on the right edge near the bezel and least noticeable on the top and bottom edges. It doesn't affect black levels because gamma doesn't change the lowest black level. Several very dark gray levels produce only a mild gamma shift effect around the edges, but as you go up in gray levels, the issue becomes more pronounced until you start reaching brighter grays. This defect is rarely seen in games, but can be quite bad when watching films, which tend to use those problematic dark grayscale levels. Some units have it worse and some barely have it, but I am certain ALL of them have to some degree. Some people think that this effect is backlight bleeding, but I assure you it is not - it is gamma shift defect. If it would be backlight bleeding, then it would affect the blackest level, but it does not. Here's how it looks like (in the worst of cases):

Grayscale level where the defect is very obvious
10854075026_34bb41bfe6_b.jpg


Graysclae level where the defect is less obvious
10744337685_41cb6e90cd_b.jpg


The 2nd picture from the top is the worst case for my units. I've never seen it as bad as shown on the 1st picture from the top, no matter which fullscreen patterns I tried. Again, color images are rarely / barely affected. Here's a good FG2421 review with a ton of images that do not show this defect at all. Notice black pattern does not show it at all it is not a backlight bleed.

Some units can also shut off and restart several times a day or once in a while. This monitor also does not have accurate green and red colors @ 100% saturation, BUT those saturation levels are barely used. Color accuracy is not the same as image / color quality, saturation levels @ 75% and below are more accurate than @ 100% saturation with a small error of dE ~3.5 and below, including skin tones. There is also an effect of having some "dirt" under the screen.

The only reason that made Eizo Foris FG2421 possible are Eizo's $6000 industrial monitors created for satellite imagery applications. These industrial monitors have very stringent quality controls. Only 1 out of however many panels is acceptable to go into that one of these monitors. The rest of the really poor units are most likely full discarded. Other units which failed to pass industrial monitor's heavy quality control, but are not of really poor quality are used for Eizo Foris FG2421. Yes, FG2421 technically uses defective panels. This is likely the reason for that gamma shift defect and why some units have that defect worse / better than others. I doubt that the $6000 monitors have it.

With all that said, IMHO, FG2421 remains to be a non-industrial consumer monitor with a really good image quality due to pretty decent contrast ratio for an LCD display and very good Turbo 240 motion clarity @ 120Hz. No other non-industrial consumer LCD monitor has both of these important gaming factors in the same unit - (1) very good image quality & (2) very good motion clarity. Aside from this monitor and industrial-level panels, you either get a moderately decent image quality with acceptable ~ 2500:1 contrast ratio, BUT at only poor / blurry 60-70Hz (when compared against Turbo 240 / LightBoost / ULMB) that other VA panels are limited to. TN / IPS panels are the opposite of VA monitors as far as these 2 gaming aspects go - they have poor image quality due to un-acceptable contrast ratio of 1000:1 and below, IPS glow, IPS backlight bleeding, TN super-bad viewing angles and terrible color accuracy, BUT recent TN and IPS panels have excellent motion clarity @ 120-144Hz and ULMB.

VA panels (aside from FG2421):
+ Good image quality
- Poor motion clarity

IPS/TN panels:
- Poor image quality
+ Great motion clarity

Eizo Foris FG2421:
+ Great image quality
+ Great motion clarity

These 2 Pro's make FG2421 to be the best consumer LCD for gaming, over-compensating for all the Con's it has. A strong 4/5 monitor. It also has a really nice semi-glossy screen with very clear pixels and only a mild amount of matte grain. However, Eizo Foris FG2421 is NOT as good as CRT's, especially Sony's Trinitron FW900 when it comes to image quality, color accuracy, and motion clarity. If I had more $$$, FW900 would be the first thing I'd buy as long as it can be calibrated to have text almost as sharp as test on an LCD, which I am not sure is possible. Until then I will stick to my FG2421 and not trade it for any monitor that doesn't improve upon the 2 factors most important for gaming - great image quality with high contrast ratio & clear motion.
 
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crt contrast is never infinite
but by changing the settings/calibrating, you can get it to around 10k-20k:1 before the black crush is ridiculous

or you can do it spacediver's way (set g2 low so contrast is >100k, then uncrush black with a lut)

imo 5k:1 is acceptable if there is no glow.

apart from convergence settings, calibration doesnt affect sharpness. well there are focus knobs but (i think) the thing that limits sharpness is the age of the tube. on a newish crt has completrly readable text an most reasonable font sizes
 
Text on a good LCD is exceptionally sharp, though not in a way I find pleasing on a low PPI display. Text on a CRT can look very good. However, if raw text clarity is the goal, the high PPI LCD panels take things to another level. No contest.
 
aye, first time I saw text on a retina display (macbook or whatever it's called) I was very impressed.
 
Man you [H]ard people are causing me problems. Between this thread and a "retro" gaming thread over a gaf, I had to dig out my Sony Trinitron. Sony GDM C520. Still in great condition. Now I have to go out of my way to include this in my current setup. Fuck you all. :mad: Seriously, I might need a new desk or some shit like that.
 
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