Women Are Leaving The Tech Industry In Droves

[MrCaffeineX]

http://dpeaflcio.org/professionals/...n-the-professional-and-technical-labor-force/

According to this study, women make up 51% of the "Professional and technical workforce." Though it does state they only provide 47% of the total workforce.

I just wanted you to know that your "general assumption" in which you based your entire argument was false.

Interesting and I stand somewhat corrected. Most of the diversity arguments that I read are still using data from the 1990s (including the one that I was thinking about as I was typing the previous post) and this is the first time that I have seen this particular set of statistics. Thank you for providing it.

The healthcare numbers in that graph are staggering.

 

[S3th13]

Why the hell cant I edit any of my posts?

BECAUSE THIS FORUM SUCKS!

Just kidding. I was thinking the same thing.

 

[S3th13]

Interesting and I stand somewhat corrected. Most of the diversity arguments that I read are still using data from the 1990s (including the one that I was thinking about as I was typing the previous post) and this is the first time that I have seen this particular set of statistics. Thank you for providing it.

The healthcare numbers in that graph are staggering.

Not a problem. It honestly surprised me as well.

Healthcare seems to be paving the way for women when it comes to equal pay and removal of the glass ceiling.

 

[S3th13]

If women are leaving tech, it could be because "atrocity propaganda".

Women in the field (as well as in school, etc) are constantly being bombarded by the media about how "bad for women" the tech field is and either avoid the field because of it, or feel it is not welcoming (even if their own experience has been fine).

That is not to say there are not issues to be addressed, there are, but this media fear-mongering is a huge reason women are diverting away from STEM fields.

Sure lets find and discuss real problems (such as seeing if there is bias in the scholarships, or hiring process) but to claim "since 51% of the STEM workforce is not female, there is an issue" patently absurd as someone else mentioned above, no one is complaining about female participation in coal mining.

Where exactly are women being "bombarded in the media" by anti-tech-industry propaganda? I'm curious. I don't watch network TV, so that may have an effect on my exposure.

 

[mope54]

Not a problem. It honestly surprised me as well.

Healthcare seems to be paving the way for women when it comes to equal pay and removal of the glass ceiling.

No, that's a false veneer.

What that is are all the young women who wanted to become doctors and/or researchers filtered into nursing and staffing positions. Hardly a resounding glow of success.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

No, that's a false veneer.

What that is are all the young women who wanted to become doctors and/or researchers filtered into nursing and staffing positions. Hardly a resounding glow of success.

Nursing careers are pay-competitive with IT positions in my area. RNs and nurse practitioners do pretty well and PA money is really good. Now the LPN and nursing assistants are pretty much equal to entry level IT techies and they're a lot more meh kinda jobs, but so is working at a call center. Though, that's just my area and I'm guessing it isn't the same everywhere.

 

[S3th13]

No, that's a false veneer.

What that is are all the young women who wanted to become doctors and/or researchers filtered into nursing and staffing positions. Hardly a resounding glow of success.

I'm specifically referring to their ability to garner employment at comparable wages to men as well as continue up the vertical ladder within that area. The issue you're describing may be caused by inherent societal norms for women to stay in a position of flexibility to care for children... or they potentially realize the effort required to achieve those goals garners the same economic status as fucking their way there (though this is "slightly" more sexist).

 

[Zamboni]

Complaining: "The new work boots are causing blisters."

Bitching: "These new work boots make my feet look fat."

 

[S3th13]

Nursing careers are pay-competitive with IT positions in my area. RNs and nurse practitioners do pretty well and PA money is really good. Now the LPN and nursing assistants are pretty much equal to entry level IT techies and they're a lot more meh kinda jobs, but so is working at a call center. Though, that's just my area and I'm guessing it isn't the same everywhere.

I agree with you as far as nurses are concerned. Their pay is competitive with entry to intermediate level IT positions (50-65k/year). Unfortunately, the advanced positions you mention (PA, CRNA, etc) require EXTREMELY competitive master degree programs. Its not as ubiquitous as getting a bachelors degree in C.S., gaining some experience entry level, and then moving towards an opening in software consulting (which seems to be all the rage at the moment for anyone looking to make a quick buck).

 

[Ducman69]

I'm specifically referring to their ability to garner employment at comparable wages to men as well as continue up the vertical ladder within that area. The issue you're describing may be caused by inherent societal norms for women to stay in a position of flexibility to care for children... or they potentially realize the effort required to achieve those goals garners the same economic status as fucking their way there (though this is "slightly" more sexist).

Stay at your office until 8:30PM for one week, look around at who else is still at the office with you. I always let management know that I'm their "go-to" for special projects and so often get some mad OT pay, and to date never seen a female in the office past 7PM.

Men get paid more ON AVERAGE because as a statistical AVERAGE men work harder and take less vacations/leave from the office.

 

[Ur_Mom]

Complaining: "The new work boots are causing blisters."

Bitching: "These new work boots make my feet look fat."

What about whining? When I hear an adult whine, I consider them unfit for their job.

 

[mope54]

I'm specifically referring to their ability to garner employment at comparable wages to men as well as continue up the vertical ladder within that area. The issue you're describing may be caused by inherent societal norms for women to stay in a position of flexibility to care for children... or they potentially realize the effort required to achieve those goals garners the same economic status as fucking their way there (though this is "slightly" more sexist).

I disagree with the points you make here but I'm not going to argue the topic on this board since it's proven to be beyond pointless in previous discussion on the topic. The data are clear that your opinions are unsubstantiated, however.

 

[S3th13]

Stay at your office until 8:30PM for one week, look around at who else is still at the office with you. I always let management know that I'm their "go-to" for special projects and so often get some mad OT pay, and to date never seen a female in the office past 7PM.

Men get paid more ON AVERAGE because as a statistical AVERAGE men work harder and take less vacations/leave from the office.

I'll bite. Even IF your evidence of that one time you stayed late and noticed that slutty secretary down the hall you were hoping to see when you left was gone represented the actual trend across all women... then I really think you need to step back and understand WHY this may be the case. It's not because of some hierarchical, biological factor that us men are so tough and strong... it's likely because women are conforming to the expectations that society as a whole has set for them. And I understand your counter: Well who cares, a fact is a fact is a fact. We're not here to make observations on fact. We all fucking realize what is happening. The thread was created to based on an observation. What needs to be discussed is why its happening and how we can change it.

 

[MrCaffeineX]

Why the hell cant I edit any of my posts?

They don't trust us to edit our posts on the News sub-forum. I suppose a side-effect is that it forces people to think about what they are going to post before posting it - personally, I'm bad at that part...

No, that's a false veneer.

What that is are all the young women who wanted to become doctors and/or researchers filtered into nursing and staffing positions. Hardly a resounding glow of success.

This appears to be an area that could use further exploration. Are there droves of men clamoring to become RNs that aren't being accepted into the education program or are not being hired because they are men? With respect to women in the computer science and/or engineering fields, my experience has been that there are very few looking to work in those fields, which results in fewer seeking education in those fields, then ultimately fewer being available in the applicant pool at most companies.

I simply do not have the information necessary to determine whether this is because a lack of interest on their part or something more sinister. Nevertheless, the recommendation that I have seen repeated more than a few times when reading about the issue has been to institute some kind of quota system at various stages in the process. I remain unconvinced that such an undertaking would accomplish the desired outcome.

 

[S3th13]

I disagree with the points you make here but I'm not going to argue the topic on this board since it's proven to be beyond pointless in previous discussion on the topic. The data are clear that your opinions are unsubstantiated, however.

Fair enough. Their pay may not be equal in healthcare, but it does appear to allow more upward mobility.

 

[Ducman69]

The thread was created to based on an observation. What needs to be discussed is why its happening and how we can change it.

Why do we need to change it? I don't hear any crying from males that they only make up 5% of nursing staff, and that they are being vagina blocked from entering the industry.

Men and women aren't the same, and never have been. Social structures may over-emphasize differences, but that doesn't mean that they aren't based on a biological framework.

Males are inherently (on average) drawn to fields that reward independent work ethic and logic/math/science based fields, and for obvious reasons career paths where physicality is important. Likewise, women tend to enjoy jobs in which socialization plays a large role, and particularly in care/service type of jobs. We see this across cultures and over long stretches of time to various extents, and you don't have to force people into fields they aren't interested or best qualified for... there isn't anything inherently broken with "different strokes for different folks".

 

[cageymaru]

Tech companies will do like they always do. Hire more people from India and other countries, ship them to America on work visas, and pay them $0.30/hr under the table.

 

[mope54]

This appears to be an area that could use further exploration. Are there droves of men clamoring to become RNs that aren't being accepted into the education program or are not being hired because they are men?

It's a fairly straightforward answer: nursing pays poor wages for relatively difficult work and long hours without much autonomy or authority. the main group "clamoring" for nursing positions are immigrants and of those its mostly women.

the men from those developing countries either have better opportunities for good paying jobs (like they do here) or they are working already so aren't trying to leave the country.

in this country, men have better options. a series of factors funnel men interested in the medical field to shoot for being doctors or if not that then they can go into technical fields that pay 2-3x what nursing pays. next time you go in for a checkup pay attention to the gender of your X-ray tech, lab tech, who draws your blood, who gathers your pee, and who takes your blood pressure. it's a field that's gendered just as much, if not more than, the rest of our economy. it's not a level playing field and certainly not a panacea of equality.

 

[Semantics]

Why the shit does it matter that women are leaving?

Race/gender only matters because we have artificially made it an issue so companies can promote it to share holders saying how wonderfully diverse they are.

Bottom line is, it doesnt matter if you are white, black, brown, yellow, purple, green, male, female, or a freaking antelope, just as long as you do good work.

It wasn't an issue finding diversity when we actively encouraged girls and women to study math and science in the 70's and 80's with affirmative action.

 

[Ducman69]

in this country, men have better options.

I guess that's why all those foreign men are working in convenience stores, as taxi drivers, construction, and landscaping instead of nursing work, because everyone knows that taxi drivers make much more money than RNs.... oh wait, the bottom 10% of RNs make $45K and the top 10% of RNs make $96K.

 

[Methadras]

Why the hell cant I edit any of my posts?

You must be new here.

 

[VladDracule]

It's a fairly straightforward answer: nursing pays poor wages for relatively difficult work and long hours without much autonomy or authority. the main group "clamoring" for nursing positions are immigrants and of those its mostly women.

the men from those developing countries either have better opportunities for good paying jobs (like they do here) or they are working already so aren't trying to leave the country.

in this country, men have better options. a series of factors funnel men interested in the medical field to shoot for being doctors or if not that then they can go into technical fields that pay 2-3x what nursing pays. next time you go in for a checkup pay attention to the gender of your X-ray tech, lab tech, who draws your blood, who gathers your pee, and who takes your blood pressure. it's a field that's gendered just as much, if not more than, the rest of our economy. it's not a level playing field and certainly not a panacea of equality.

yeah ok my sister who is an FNP makes more than i did for 2/3rds of my career as an aerospace engineer

 

[mope54]

yeah ok my sister who is an FNP makes more than i did for 2/3rds of my career as an aerospace engineer

You should talk to her about this topic and learn a bit about how nursing practitioners became a discipline.

 

[PersonalJ]

I agree with you as far as nurses are concerned. Their pay is competitive with entry to intermediate level IT positions (50-65k/year). Unfortunately, the advanced positions you mention (PA, CRNA, etc) require EXTREMELY competitive master degree programs. Its not as ubiquitous as getting a bachelors degree in C.S., gaining some experience entry level, and then moving towards an opening in software consulting (which seems to be all the rage at the moment for anyone looking to make a quick buck).

Yes, but a CS degree is a substantially greater difficulty than either an IT degree or nursing degree. Withdrawal rates are astronomical in CS degrees.

 

[mope54]

You can't use average salaries for those with advanced degrees in nursing and base your belief about what average "nurses" or assistants make.

That's the same assumption that all engineers make the top salary even though there are different types of engineers, and even worse, lumping all IT clerks working at minimum wage at universities and best buy geek squad desks in with the same category of "IT specialists."

The field isn't mapped like that.

 

[mope54]

yeah ok my sister who is an FNP makes more than i did for 2/3rds of my career as an aerospace engineer

just to make this point clear for people who aren't knowledgeable about the field of nursing:

FNP is a family nurse practitioner, which is essentially equivalent to your family doctor but trained in the field of nursing. Of course she's going to make more than an entry aero engineer...she's at the top of her field

notice how your salary scaled up?

nurse practitioners are usually what you all see when you go in for a checkup unless you've got an old family doctor you still see or until you need to see a specialist for urology or surgery.

imagine why that is.

 

[VladDracule]

just to make this point clear for people who aren't knowledgeable about the field of nursing:

FNP is a family nurse practitioner, which is essentially equivalent to your family doctor but trained in the field of nursing. Of course she's going to make more than an entry aero engineer...she's at the top of her field

notice how your salary scaled up?

nurse practitioners are usually what you all see when you go in for a checkup unless you've got an old family doctor you still see or until you need to see a specialist for urology or surgery.

imagine why that is.

because now there completely seperate fields? A NP is masters degree, not an MD, doesnt require the same amount of school or the same level of on the job training before you even receive an MD. This was a intentional choice when she was debating between Law school, med school, and getting her practitioners. I think your condescending attitude towards the profession is rather disgusting

 

[GaryS]

age has caused me to be so cynical and sarcastic, maybe I need to stop drinking before
10am

A couple of martinis at lunch was perfectly acceptable... encouraged even.

Doesn't say ***t about age.

The good news is that the life-is-too short philosophy is making its way back very quickly. Problem is that many folks never had a good time. Scares them off even!

 

[mope54]

because now there completely seperate fields? A NP is masters degree, not an MD, doesnt require the same amount of school or the same level of on the job training before you even receive an MD. This was a intentional choice when she was debating between Law school, med school, and getting her practitioners. I think your condescending attitude towards the profession is rather disgusting

condescending attitude towards which profession?

you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about

women were precluded by law from attending law school or becoming physicians.
the para-professional programs, like paralegals and nurses, sprouted up to allow women into the field

now nursing profession has grown large and powerful enough to demand the same level of training and expertise as physicians. nurse practitioners attend the same level of training both in the educational and on-the-job as doctors. One can obtain a doctorate in nursing, as well.

you shouldn't opine about things you don't understand that's for sure.

 

[Spire3660]

Eh, hardly something to emulate.

You must be young. Back in the day, people didnt have 5 careers, they had one. They didnt need to climb into upper positions, they got pay raises and did the job they were good at.

 

[VladDracule]

condescending attitude towards which profession?

you don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about

women were precluded by law from attending law school or becoming physicians.
the para-professional programs, like paralegals and nurses, sprouted up to allow women into the field

now nursing profession has grown large and powerful enough to demand the same level of training and expertise as physicians. nurse practitioners attend the same level of training both in the educational and on-the-job as doctors. One can obtain a doctorate in nursing, as well.

you shouldn't opine about things you don't understand that's for sure.

lololol NO THEY DONT. A Nurse Practioners is a MASTERS degree requiring ONLY 2 years roughly of school after completing your bachelors degree. an MD is a minimum of 4 years of school post bachelors degree, a several year long residency. MD requires significantly more time than Nurse Practioners. Everything your posting is utter BS

 

[mope54]

lololol NO THEY DONT. A Nurse Practioners is a MASTERS degree requiring ONLY 2 years roughly of school after completing your bachelors degree. an MD is a minimum of 4 years of school post bachelors degree, a several year long residency. MD requires significantly more time than Nurse Practioners. Everything your posting is utter BS

hmm, sounds like you're the one with the condescending attitude toward nurses...and you're objectively wrong, too.

The path to becoming a nurse practitioner in the United States begins by earning a Bachelor of Science in Nursing (BSN) or other undergraduate degree, and requires licensure as a registered nurse (RN) and experience in the generalist RN role. Then, one must graduate from an accredited graduate (MSN) or doctoral (DNP) program. The typical curriculum for a nurse practitioner program includes courses in epidemiology; health promotion; advanced pathophysiology; physical assessment and diagnostic reasoning; advanced pharmacology; laboratory/radiography diagnostics; statistics and research methods; health policy; role development and leadership; acute and chronic disease management (e.g., adults, children, women's health, geriatrics, etc.); and clinical rotations, which varies depending on the program and population focus. Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) programs include additional, advanced coursework in biostatistics; research methods; clinical outcome measures; care of special populations; organizational management; informatics; and healthcare policy and economics. DNP programs also require completion of a research project/residency. Some nurse practitioners, as well as other APRN roles, may choose to pursue the Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) as a terminal degree. The PhD in nursing focuses on nursing research and nursing education, while the DNP focuses more on clinical practice.

There is an initiative to require the DNP as the entry level degree for all APRN roles, including the nurse practitioner, nurse anesthetist, and nurse midwife. Those who have a MSN but are currently practicing in an APRN role would be grandfathered into this change. Many universities have started to phase out MSN programs in lieu of this expected change and have devised BSN-DNP programs. NPs may elect to complete a postgraduate residency or fellowship. The majority of such programs focus on primary care; however, specialized programs (e.g., acute care, emergency medicine, cardiology, general surgery, etc.) also exist.

After completing the required education, the NP must pass a national board certifying exam in a specific population focus: acute care, family practice, women's health, pediatrics, adult-gerontology, neonatal, or psychiatric-mental health, which coincides with the type of program from which he or she graduated. After achieving board certification, the nurse practitioners must apply for additional credentials (e.g., APRN license, prescriptive authority, DEA registration number, etc.) at the state and federal level. The nurse practitioner must achieve a certain amount of continuing medical education (CME) credits and clinical practice hours in order to maintain certification and licensure. NPs are licensed through state boards of nursing.

 

[PersonalJ]

lololol NO THEY DONT. A Nurse Practioners is a MASTERS degree requiring ONLY 2 years roughly of school after completing your bachelors degree. an MD is a minimum of 4 years of school post bachelors degree, a several year long residency. MD requires significantly more time than Nurse Practioners. Everything your posting is utter BS

Nurse practitioner positions are moving towards requiring a doctorate, it's really just degree inflation though.

 

[VladDracule]

hmm, sounds like you're the one with the condescending attitude toward nurses...and you're objectively wrong, too.

Your post does absolutely nothing to support your argument. a Ph.D in nursing is an entirely different thing than most Nurse Practioner Programs. In fact the descriptions of the degrees are entirely different as one is primarily practice the other is educational with a focus more on becoming a professor. Yup, your still posting bs

 

[VladDracule]

hmm, sounds like you're the one with the condescending attitude toward nurses...and you're objectively wrong, too.

also for the record my direct family has 2 nurse practioners, and another who has been accepted into a nurse Anesthesiologist program. I am familiar with the programs, their requirements, and their resulting degrees/level of training and education

 

[mope54]

if you say so

I already knew better earlier in the thread than to argue with a bunch of people who don't have terminal degrees

 

[mope54]

also for the record my direct family has 2 nurse practioners, and another who has been accepted into a nurse Anesthesiologist program. I am familiar with the programs, their requirements, and their resulting degrees/level of training and education

then you know full well those are all advanced nursing degrees and not typical of the average nurse or their salaries in a hospital. holy shit talk about cherry picking

 

[Megalith]

What percentage of people who go into nursing actually care about people? 5%?

 

[VladDracule]

then you know full well those are all advanced nursing degrees and not typical of the average nurse or their salaries in a hospital. holy shit talk about cherry picking

your right, because my sister who is the FNP NEVER worked as a regular nurse in NICU...your right, i couldnt have a clue. Even her starting salary was higher than mine when i entered the field

 

[mope54]

your right, because my sister who is the FNP NEVER worked as a regular nurse in NICU...your right, i couldnt have a clue. Even her starting salary was higher than mine when i entered the field

and what do you have? a bs or an ms?