M.2 and SSD's 20 to 40 Gbps with NVMe

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I wonder if Western Digital has anything up their sleeve like a WD Black Series with NVMe?

With media rates capped at around 200MB/s a new interface does not do much for a spinner. It will be quite some time (if ever) before they hit 600 MB/s and they would not benefit from the lower latency unless the cache was greatly enlarged. Although WDC a few weeks ago showed off a development hybrid drive with a PCIe interface.
 
So, while the current AHCI interface and its connectors, ie SATA, cap performance at around 600 MB/s, I am curious if disc hard drives will be able to take any advantage of the new NVMe interface and connectors for any performance increases? It obviously would not be anything near the performance of SSD's but, with the high price premium for the new NVMe SSD's and M.2, I wonder if Western Digital has anything up their sleeve like a WD Black Series with NVMe?

Across everything I've read thus far I've never heard that question asked or answered.

With media rates capped at around 200MB/s a new interface does not do much for a spinner. It will be quite some time (if ever) before they hit 600 MB/s and they would not benefit from the lower latency unless the cache was greatly enlarged. Although WDC a few weeks ago showed off a development hybrid drive with a PCIe interface.

Ok, so there's slim to no chance disc hard drives will be able to take any advantage of the new NVMe interface. Good to know.


Western Digital Shows Off a 128GB SSD + 4TB HDD 3.5" SATA Express Dual-Drive January 4, 2015


WD3_575px.jpg


WD1_678x452.jpg


wd-hybrid-demo.jpg


wd-hybrid-demo-2.jpg
 
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Ok, so there's slim to no chance disc hard drives will be able to take any advantage of the new NVMe interface. Good to know.

They probably could, in certain workloads, but nowhere near as much as an SSD. I think it would mainly help in enterprise workloads with higher queue depths, though, which is probably NVMe's biggest benefit. As such, it won't be as useful for our desktop workloads even with SSD (but it'll still be a noticeable increase if the firmware of the specific drive in question is good enough for desktop loads).
 
Now, what about support for NVMe on motherboards and other devices?

I assume it will have to be included in the BIOS on motherboards as an option to select AHCI or NVME or perhaps automatic? How will all of that work and what all is included in the "chain" to keep an eye out for any "weak links" to ensure full or native support for NVMe? I don't want to get fooled thinking I'm doing a new PC build around NVMe when there's a weak link in the chain I'm unaware of such as with drivers, controllers, connectors, CPU, motherboard etc.
 
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I just updated my ASRock Z97 board to support NVMe but I am not sure how to enable support. I don't have a NVMe drive so I imagine I won't be able to find out until I do. I imagine it will allow a NVMe drive to "just work" rather than, you know, not working at all. But I still don't know for sure if a drive can even support both NVMe and AHCI or not. I had assumed they could because the SM951 was initially thought to support both, but newer information seems to state that either the SM951 does not support NVMe at all or they are separate SKUs.

Not sure if any other manufacturers have released UEFI/BIOS support for NVMe boot on consumer chipsets (e.g. Z97) yet, but I'm sure more will if they haven't yet. Probably mostly for Intel Z97 chipsets. Some manufacturers miiiiight release it for Z87, but that is pretty iffy. Older than that is highly unlikely from any brand. And I have no idea for AMD stuff, though my next system will likely be AMD.
 
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Here's my own predicament ... what would you do?:

I need a new HD as my current HD is used as I pulled it out of an older system that was replaced a couple years ago:: WD Blue 500g SATA3, 16mb cache

Should I just get a WD Black Series 2 TB SATA III or wait for a WD Hybrid SATA Express HD at 10 Gbps or wait until the dust settles from the price premium for these new next generation NVMe SSD's/M.2? Or, just settle for a SATA III/ AHCI 240/256 Samsung SSD without NVMe for now? I'm in quite a pickle but, mostly because I'm trying to save money or get what I really want. Won't prices come down on the soon to be obsolete SATA III/ AHCI disc HD's? Another issue is that my system is old enough that new SSD's may not be compatible. This is largely why I've taken such an interest in this subject and started this thread. Plus, the fact that the new next generation NVMe SSD's are the best thing to happen to computers since the multi-core CPU.

My current system:

MB: MSI 790FX-GD70
CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955
HD: WD Blue 500g SATA3, 16mb cache
EX.HD: WD Passport 1T
RAM: 8g Mushkin 1600
GPU: Evga 760 SC 2g
PSU: Seasonic X-750w

I hope to be able to do a new build after Intel's Skylake comes out and prices are decent on DDR4, SSD's/M.2 etc., most likely spring of 2016. Unless I win the lotto, I will keep my PSU, GPU and Ex.HD to save money and replace them as needed.
 
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I would expect price cuts to slow down. SATA SSDs will keep getting cut in price but I wouldn't expect the prices to get cut by near-50%/year anymore. Hopefully I'm wrong and 512GB SSDs are <$100 next year but I doubt it.

NVMe won't be comparably cheap for a good while, I'd say.

The XP941/SM951 are good choices for an SSD right now if your system can boot them, I'd say. Honestly I have no idea if your system will. But a lot of machines can't boot the XP941 and I honestly don't know at this point if the SM951 has better compatibility.

Best cost effective option for the vast majority of users at this time is a regular SATA SSD. If I didn't already have an Intel 320, I'd have bought a 480/512GB SATA SSD this season to hold me over until NVMe.
 
SATA SSDs will keep getting cut in price but I wouldn't expect the prices to get cut by near-50%/year anymore. Hopefully I'm wrong and 512GB SSDs are <$100 next year but I doubt it.

Intel / Micron are supposed to have their own 3D NAND in Q3 (I believe) this should drive prices down.
 
I for one am glad to have Samsung Evo's and a Samsung XP941 in my current system. For me they are blazing fast! And I look forward to the newer tech. But like anything in the computer world it's all a total waste of money and obsolete before you buy it. My first harddrives were 20meg Sleezgates in a IBM XT. And that rig cost 4 times what my current rig cost. :)
 
It really looks like I'll have to wait before I buy a new HD. I do not want anything SATA because it will soon be obsolete and it would be quite a disappointment to have to use it in a new Skylake system next year but, I need a 2T HD until they come out and price premiums drop, which could take who knows how long = pickle. Damn if I do, damn if I don't. I pre-ordered GTA V but, it's 65g so I won't even be able to install it until I get another HD.

Another issue

I just hope that they don't screw us by coming out with limited performance like a 12 or 16 Gbps cap for this first generation and cap the 2nd generation at like 20Gbps holding back 32Gbps and 64Gbps for like 5 years down the road.

Although, they've already started coming out with 32Gbps M.2:

17_100714.jpg


"With a 4 x PCI Express 3.0/2.0 bandwidth, M.2 supports up to 32Gbps data-transfer speeds..."

ASUS X99-E WS LGA 2011-v3 Intel X99
http://www.amazon.com/X99-E-WS-LGA2011-v3-CrossFireX-Motherboard/dp/B00OVAG02W/

What do you guys think they'll come out with for the 1st and 2nd generation NVMe SSD's and M.2?

A Samsung SM951 with NVMe support would be sweet but, they've released it w/o NVMe support for now as the NVMe will be a different SKU.
 
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It really looks like I'll have to wait before I buy a new HD. I do not want anything SATA because it will soon be obsolete and it would be quite a disappointment to have to use it in a new Skylake system next year but, I need a 2T HD until they come out and price premiums drop, which could take who knows how long = pickle. Damn if I do, damn if I don't. I pre-ordered GTA V but, it's 65g so I won't even be able to install it until I get another HD.

Another issue

I just hope that they don't screw us by coming out with limited performance like a 12 or 16 Gbps cap for this first generation and cap the 2nd generation at like 20Gbps holding back 32Gbps and 64Gbps for like 5 years down the road.

Although, they've already started coming out with 32Gbps M.2:

17_100714.jpg


"With a 4 x PCI Express 3.0/2.0 bandwidth, M.2 supports up to 32Gbps data-transfer speeds..."

ASUS X99-E WS LGA 2011-v3 Intel X99
http://www.amazon.com/X99-E-WS-LGA2011-v3-CrossFireX-Motherboard/dp/B00OVAG02W/

What do you guys think they'll come out with for the 1st and 2nd generation NVMe SSD's and M.2?

A Samsung SM951 with NVMe support would be sweet but, they've released it w/o NVMe support for now as the NVMe will be a different SKU.

Just get a SATA SSD, your computer is so old that you will be bottlenecked by the computer anyways. Quit worrying about whats on the horizon, an SSD is such a huge improvement over what you currently have its literally a no brainer.


You will NEVER notice a difference in current architecture SSDs versus NVMe or M.2 on a normal workload.
 
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Just get a SATA SSD, your computer is so old that you will be bottlenecked by the computer anyways. Quit worrying about whats on the horizon, an SSD is such a huge improvement over what you currently have its literally a no brainer.


You will NEVER notice a difference in current architecture SSDs versus NVMe or M.2 on a normal workload.

I'd argue a 30%+ improvement in latency will be noticeable.

I need a new SSD and i'm waiting for an M.2 NVMe drive. The first to release at around 128gb will take my money.
 
I believe the right NVMe drive will be noticeable on the desktop to some users including many of us on this site. However it will still be minor compared to the improvement from an HDD to an SSD. And if you have to wait, say, a year to get it... the amount of happiness you lose by using HDD over that year makes buying SATA right now worth it, in my opinion.
 
I'd argue a 30%+ improvement in latency will be noticeable.

I need a new SSD and i'm waiting for an M.2 NVMe drive. The first to release at around 128gb will take my money.

I don't think it will be noticeable except for in cases of synthetic benchmarks or possibly some applications that use a large locally hosted database.

JoseJones is talking about not buying an SSD now based some weird rational that SATA SSD's will soon be obsolete, which is not the case. Current SSD's are still enormously faster than what he has, and he wont notice the difference between a current SSD and a newfangled SSD anyways.

The latency of a current SSD is already insanely low, 30% of an already low amount is essentially nothing...
 
Below is the suggestion that SATA Express is already basically obsolete out of the gate:

"SATA Express has one important disadvantage compared to PCI-Express and M.2 add-in cards: a SATA Express cable can only transport two PCI-Express lanes. When using PCI-Express 2.0, the maximum throughput rate is therefore limited to 1000 MB/s, which is a relatively modest improvement over Serial ATA 600. We don't know whether SATA Express is also suitable for PCI-Express 3.0, although we do know that Intel's current implementation in the Z97 and X99 chipsets is not.

Admittedly, the lower speed is not the only reason as to why most motherboard manufacturers aren't convinced by this standard. SATA Express will by definition only be used in desktop computers, as M.2 is the standard for laptops. Chances are that the various SSD manufacturers won't be releasing a whole lot of SATA Express SSDs for the desktop niche market. ASRock, for one, has already pronounced the standard to be dead before the first SATA Express SSDs have even seen the light of day."

SATA Express: stillborn?

"Like we mentioned before, we're a little sceptical about SATA Express, because the standard is already outdated before the first product has even hit the market."

http://us.hardware.info/reviews/5772/8/2015-the-year-of-pci-express-ssds-a-lot-in-the-pipeline
 
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I have no doubt that SATA will be around awhile but, SATA is soon to become the next VGA that nobody wants, in a couple years after NVMe is the standard. NVMe is the best thing to happen to computers since the multi-core CPU.

My rational is about far more than just a new disc hard drive or SSD. My system is getting really old and it's time for a new one and what I absolutely do NOT want to do is cut my balls off with another slow SATA system. So I'm just trying to future proof at least on the storage front. I'd settle for a 240g M.2 with NVMe @ 20Gbps for starters, so long as my motherboard, CPU and SSD supported NVMe so, that I can get a much faster SSD down the road when price premiums come down to earth. But, it'll come down to price.

My current system (mostly from 2009):

MB: MSI 790FX-GD70
CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955
HD: WD Blue 500g SATA3, 16mb cache

New system goal:

CPU: Intel Skylake
MB: Gigabyte Black Edition
RAM: Mushkin 16g DDR4 3200
SSD: Mushkin or Samsung @ 64Gbps with NVMe
M.2: 240g @ 64Gbps with NVMe

I'd like to get into:

DirectX 12
DisplayPort 1.3
HDMI 2.0
PCIe 4.0

"Industry observers had initially believed that the issues impacting Broadwell would also cause Skylake to slip to 2016, but newer information suggests that Intel would seek to recover from these delays by bringing forward Skylake's release and shortening Broadwell's release cycle instead. ... Skylake in 2015"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)

Report: Intel Skylake to Have PCIe 4.0, DDR4, SATA Express

"According to a purported Intel Xeon Processor Roadmap Plan for HPC, the 14 nm &#8220;Skylake&#8221; architecture will support DDR4, PCIe 4.0 and SATA Express.

WCCFTech has published what purports to be Intel&#8217;s Xeon Processor Roadmap Plan for HPC which sheds light on the company&#8217;s post-Haswell forecast, specifically the forthcoming &#8220;Skylake&#8221; architecture that will arrive in the first half of 2015. "

"Interestingly, Skylake will also support PCIe 4.0 that offers a link bandwidth of 16 GB/s -- double that of PCIe 3.0 and far in excess of the bandwidth required by any existing graphics card. Finally, Skylake incorporates the latest AVX 3.2 instructions and SATA Express functionality which should significantly enhance the transfer speeds of hard drives and SSDs."

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/Skylake-Intel-DDR4-PCIe-SATAe,news-44696.html

"Intel is preparing to launch its Broadwell and Skylake chipsets in 2015"
http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/09/intel-corporation-launching-broadwell-skylake-chips/

"Skylake will be in production in early 2015 and in products by the end of next year."
http://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/74481-intel-broadwell-skylake-client-cpus-launching-2015/
 
Skylake won't have PCI-E 4.0 and SATA Express support already exists. Nothing needed to change in the chipset whatsoever for SATA-E. In fact, here's a newer article from the same WCCFTech saying no PCI-E 4.0 (which was obvious since the standard was just ratified what, like 3 months ago?) http://wccftech.com/intel-skylake-set-ddr4-pcie-40-set-xeon-2015/. I doubt even Cannonlake would have PCI-E 4.0. Probably gonna be 2017.

As for the comparison to VGA, as much as I'd like to see VGA die (at least as a standard interface), laptops still come with that junk. It is the interface that won't die. But you're right to compare them because SATA isn't going to die for a long time.
 
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The latency of a current SSD is already insanely low, 30% of an already low amount is essentially nothing...

While current SSD technology does make Windows snappy. it is not snappy enough for me. We will look back on SATA SSD's and laugh believe me.
 
While current SSD technology does make Windows snappy. it is not snappy enough for me. We will look back on SATA SSD's and laugh believe me.

I doubt this will happen with consumer flash based SSDs.
 
Skylake won't have PCI-E 4.0 and SATA Express support already exists. Nothing needed to change in the chipset whatsoever for SATA-E. In fact, here's a newer article from the same WCCFTech saying no PCI-E 4.0 (which was obvious since the standard was just ratified what, like 3 months ago?) http://wccftech.com/intel-skylake-set-ddr4-pcie-40-set-xeon-2015/. I doubt even Cannonlake would have PCI-E 4.0. Probably gonna be 2017.

As for the comparison to VGA, as much as I'd like to see VGA die (at least as a standard interface), laptops still come with that junk. It is the interface that won't die. But you're right to compare them because SATA isn't going to die for a long time.

Pci-sig announced PCI Express 4.0 way back in 2011

PCI Express 4.0 FAQ's

Nevertheless, you're probably right in that we probably won't see PCIe 4.0 until at least 2016 so, I make no argument against that point.

Although, Skylake will support PCI Express 4.0, just not until the Extreme version likely due out in 2016.

Wiki:
"Other expected enhancements include PCI Express 4.0 support on the "-E" (extreme) version (for which the release is expected in 2016)"

The quote was recently added to Wiki as it used to just say
"Other expected enhancements include PCI Express 4.0"

So, I think there may have been some confusion in that original article with the E version. After Skylake's E-version comes Cannonlake and it will likely support PCIe 4.0.

SATA Express I couldn't care less about and is already dead to me.
 
Yes, they ANNOUNCED it in 2011, but it wasn't READY in 2011. In fact, I was wrong about it being ratified in 2014. It's still not even in final specs! It's still not done! There is literally zero chance of it being in Skylake, and nearly zero chance in Cannonlake.

Wikipedia said:
On November 29, 2011, PCI-SIG announced PCI Express 4.0,[35] providing a 16 GT/s bit rate that doubles the bandwidth provided by PCI Express 3.0, while maintaining backward and forward compatibility in both software support and used mechanical interface. Additionally, active and idle power optimizations are to be investigated. Final specifications are expected to be released in late 2015.
 
Skylake will support PCI Express 4.0, just not until the Extreme version likely due out in 2016.

Wiki:
"Other expected enhancements include PCI Express 4.0 support on the "-E" (extreme) version (for which the release is expected in 2016)"

The quote was recently added to Wiki as it used to just say
"Other expected enhancements include PCI Express 4.0"

After Skylake's E-version comes Cannonlake and it will likely support PCIe 4.0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)
 
After Skylake's E-version comes Cannonlake and it will likely support PCIe 4.0

There is a chance that Cannonlake comes out before or at the same time as Skylake-E. Remember that enthusiast platform usually trails the mainstream. Although I am not expecting Skylake-E in 2016 at all.
 
I'd simply say "Skylake is not Skylake-E"

Frankly, I'm skeptical that even Skylake-E will support it, but we'll see, I guess.
 
I love how JoseJones is running a system from 2009 that seemingly hasn't had a single upgrade since then, and all of a sudden it's like SOOOOO important that he can upgrade from super fast SSD to SUPER DUPER fast SSD every year or so because he's gonna feel the difference between 0.05 ms and 0.03 ms latencies..

Trolling or delusional?
 
MSI is saying NVME support on Win7:

http://www.techpowerup.com/209304/m...-storage-on-all-x99-z97-h97-motherboards.html

Is this going to just work... or will it be like WinXP with SATA drives where one needed to load a SATA drivers (from floppy) during setup in order to be able to continue with installation?

Well crap, I don't see any option for NVMe support for my old MSI 790FX-GD70 - no big surprise there.

It's only for "Intel 9 series chipsets including X99, Z97 and H97" at least for now but, at least it also includes Windows 7 and booting: "Windows 7 64-bit and Windows 8.1 64-bit and fully support NVMe booting"
 
What testing would you like to see performed on these new NVMe SSD's and M.2, beyond the standard benchmarks?

I'd like to see side by side video comparisons of:

1. boot-up times compared to both SSD and HD
2. opening of large programs like Adobe CS
3. load times of large games like TitanFall and GTA-V
4. large data transfers

What are your suggestions?
 
Now I am very confused. Are you going to purchase one of these $2000+ PCIe SSDs and you want us to give you suggestions what to benchmark?
 
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I love how JoseJones is running a system from 2009 that seemingly hasn't had a single upgrade since then, and all of a sudden it's like SOOOOO important that he can upgrade from super fast SSD to SUPER DUPER fast SSD every year or so because he's gonna feel the difference between 0.05 ms and 0.03 ms latencies..

Trolling or delusional?

hehe, that's what i was trying to say.

Thanks.
 
Well crap, I don't see any option for NVMe support for my old MSI 790FX-GD70 - no big surprise there.

It's only for "Intel 9 series chipsets including X99, Z97 and H97" at least for now but, at least it also includes Windows 7 and booting: "Windows 7 64-bit and Windows 8.1 64-bit and fully support NVMe booting"

but will the bios update take care of the lack of NVME support in Win7 (Win 8.1 has native support), or will it require a initial-install driver update from external media? As was the case with WinXP (pre SP1) and Sata drives...
 
Now I am very confused. Are you going to purchase one of these $2000+ PCIe SSDs and you want us to give you suggestions what to benchmark?

I made no mention of buying a $2,000 SSD - I posted that SSD in a separate post, which I posted because it appears to be the only NVMe SSD available for consumers right now.

I made no mention of myself doing benchmarks, all I was doing was asking what other testing beyond the standard benchmarks would others like to see done. All I said was below and I made no mention of me getting that $2,000 SSD or doing any benchmarks:

What testing would you like to see performed on these new NVMe SSD's and M.2, beyond the standard benchmarks?

I'd like to see side by side video comparisons of:

1. boot-up times compared to both SSD and HD
2. opening of large programs like Adobe CS
3. load times of large games like TitanFall and GTA-V
4. large data transfers

What are your suggestions?

I'd just like to see some of those 4 and more up on youtube to for all to see.
 
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I made no mention of myself doing benchmarks, all I was doing was asking what other testing beyond the standard benchmarks would others like to see done. All I said was below and I made no mention of me getting that $2,000 SSD or doing any benchmarks:

It was extremely confusing to me what you were asking. You showed the products on newegg then asked
What testing would you like to see performed on these new NVMe SSD's and M.2, beyond the standard benchmarks?

To me that seemed like either you planned to get one or know someone (or a site) with one to test otherwise what is the point of asking what benchmarks we would like to see when we have no way to possibly see the benchmarks?
 
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It's not confusing at all if you don't add things into the text that are just not there. If I were planning on doing benchmarks or buying that $2,000 SSD I would've said so.

Again, the SSD was in a completely separate post and I made no mention of doing any benchmarks or buying any $2,000 SSD.

You confuse yourself, just read the text and do NOT add to it. And when I say "you" that is just a general term not necessarily speaking to anyone in particular.

Can we move on now?

It was extremely confusing to me what you were asking. You showed the products on newegg then asked

To me that seemed like either you planned to get one or know someone (or a site) with one to test otherwise what is the point of asking what benchmarks we would like to see when we have no way to possibly see the benchmarks?
 
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So, I guess there will be no new SSD's or M.2's coming out with the new NVMe interface until the motherboards and CPU's come out that support it, which, I'm guessing, won't be until Intel's Skylake comes out after Broadwell. So, summer at the earliest?

I wish they'd give us some accurate news on when we can expect to see the some new NVMe SSD's and M.2's being made available to consumers. Or do the newer SSD's and M.2's already have support for NVMe?
 
Had my Gene VII with M.2 slot since last summer and nothing to put in it. Except for a piss-poor Plextor drive which is hardly any better than regular SSDs.

I'm guessing the manufacturers want me to double dip on an AHCI drive then an NVMe drive. It's not going to happen. No NVMe no buy, SIMPLE.
 
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