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The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)
- Thread starter Necere
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AFD
2[H]4U
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I would probably want it to at least fit the slightly taller ITX-style cards (with enough room for the PCI power cable, of course), but only if using a shorter card also allowed room for something else (maybe additional 2.5" drives). Otherwise, there would really be no benefit to using one, and a reference 980 would be a better choice. Really don't understand the desire for huge 3-fan Windforce coolers in a SFF case.
Just my random opinion.. don't think I'm exactly the type of consumer that this project was going after. Think a fairly smallish gaming PC like this is an awesome idea, but I'm honestly more interested in a tiny living room computer (media consumption, web browsing on TV) with gaming being a secondary function. Ie, my opinion probably shouldn't matter too much
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Well, for me at least, it is a big deal. I currently have a small PC in the living room with the M1 and upgrading the video card is difficult given that most of the cards are very wide and don't fit. Also, the limitation of using just a blower type cooler really limits your options if you want a silent PC (ok, using a blower style cooler can be quieter than an open airflow one given that the other components don't cook themselves anymore and drive all the fans to maximum).
It would be nice to devise a small case that would be able to accommodate a larger variety of graphic cards (given that a steam style case would be used primarily for gaming), which can be both wider and non-blower. I'm not sure how feasible something like this is though.
If gaming is not a priority then I believe the case could limit support to even miniITX style cards, given that the 970 punches a lot of ooomph in a very small package.
With an unusually high level of trust in the end-user, ducting of component fans solves this nicely, particularly for GPU blowers, without requiring additional fans. It does put the burden on whoever is assembling the system not to go picking components that assume a certain quantity of passive airflow (e.g. 'gaming' motherboards with overzealous power delivery systems).
What would be the benefit of doing this? Not just sacrificing a couple of millimeters worth of dimensions I hope?
I have a reference 780ti in the M1 and I think the distance from the side panel to the pcie power cable connector end (where the wires come out after plugged into the gpu) is about 15mm, which is enough for the wires to bend around. Not sure how this 'even more limited' will work out in terms of meaningful size reduction, would it be just a few mm?
There is no blower-only limitation, not sure where you got that. My question is regarding cards that are roughly reference height, which includes plenty of open cooler cards.
You don't actually gain anything in terms of size by limiting the GPU to ITX-style, since the length of the case is determined by the PSU+motherboard.
Ironically, blower cards are in some respects less than ideal, because they wouldn't set up positive pressure in the GPU compartment. The vents on the narrow side adjacent to the GPU kind of need filtering to account for that scenario, which is something that's a bit of a sticking point.
It doesn't save any space - I'm just considering the need for side panel clips. You can see it limits the max GPU height, depending on the cooler design:
I initially didn't have clips along these sides, but I think it would better secure the panels this way.
Personally I would rather make the chassis a couple of millimeters larger (if side panel clips require that) to retain the compatibility with third-party cooling solutions from ASUS/MSI since they often provide superior temperatures and acoustics.
GPU is the most important part of a gaming machine after all.
GPU is the most important part of a gaming machine after all.
octagoncow
Limp Gawd
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I agree with zalbard. I would really like the option of using a GPU from Asus or MSI since those can have their fans shut off at idle. I'd like to have this case be as small as possible, but it's not really worth it if we cut down too much on features like GPU length.
CknSalad
Limp Gawd
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Is it possible to make the case just 7-8L in volume? I ask this because dondan's and saperpl's cases are 6.6L and 6.9L respectively. I do think that your case is the most aesthetically pleasing/refined looking of the three. Also as indicated in my signature, I own the Ncase M1, which is awesome by the way!
Well, even without the side panel clips GPU height is limited to ~5.5". Which doesn't mean 5.5" tall cards will necessarily fit of course - you need to take into account an additional 3/4" for the PCIe power connectors. At least ASUS is being smart about their newer oversized cards keeping the PCB to a reasonable height so the connectors are recessed. But then you've got cards like the ROG Matrix, which are 6" tall, and MSI's Gaming 4G that's 5.5" but without recessed connectors... so where do we draw the line? To fit those cards the case will need to be a minimum of 1/2" larger (completely aside from the clip issue).
Not if you want things like tall GPU support, toolless side panels, and 60mm tall CPU cooler support.Is it possible to make the case just 7-8L in volume? I ask this because dondan's and saperpl's cases are 6.6L and 6.9L respectively. I do think that your case is the most aesthetically pleasing/refined looking of the three. Also as indicated in my signature, I own the Ncase M1, which is awesome by the way!
Is it possible to make the case just 7-8L in volume? I ask this because dondan's and saperpl's cases are 6.6L and 6.9L respectively. I do think that your case is the most aesthetically pleasing/refined looking of the three. Also as indicated in my signature, I own the Ncase M1, which is awesome by the way!
Biggest reason why this case is larger by volume is the increase in CPU clearance height so you can fit an AXP-100 or Big Shuriken heatsink/fan on the CPU. If you look at the other slim cases, you have much less CPU clearance for a heatsink/fan.
I say do the same thing you did for the M1, standard GPU size support only. If people want to try and squeeze in non standard sized components, its a DIY project for the end user.
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I can think of some reasons to argue for taller GPU support:
- For its intended purpose, it makes sense to optimize for quiet components. In the M1, you can watercool the GPU to reduce noise under load, but that's not an option here.
- When the M1 was designed, tall cards weren't quite as common as they are now. GPU height is probably one of the top "will it fit" issues that comes up.
- IMO the case proportions are less sensitive to increases in height (compared to width).
I can see a half inch, just be careful about the size creep. Theres some really nice HTPC cases out there i just cannot use because they are too wide to fit in my cabinets. Anything wider than 14" (355mm) is going to start having problems fitting into spaces.
There should be some restrictions, absolutely (e.g. no Classified cards...). But having one-two third-party options would be nice.
On a side note, the additional spacing for PCIe connectors and the clips is about the same, so if they don't overlap, then it should help set the limit.
Also, I wonder if it's possible to push GPU a bit closer to the motherboard if we are to use a flexible riser?
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Yes, I apologize, wrong choice of words. I was referring to the fact that a blower style GPU has issues with cooling in the M1 (I currently have a WF3 970 G1 and it gets quite loud) and therefore a blower style cooler is recommended (but not limited to). But as I understand this is not the case here as well.
Also to add another 2cents, I personally wouldn't mind if the case was bigger, although I understand that we need to draw the line at a certain point. But fitting a card such as the wider EVGA Classified series or the STRIX from ASUS would be very nice indeed.
But to be honest, even if I could fit only reference height cards I would still buy this case in the first day it's launched
Just a comment when it comes to noise (which I think is the main reason for getting a Strix) and card width; I hear that EVGA "Superclocked" ACX 2.0 is a worthy Strix-competitor (both are silent, both are semi-passive), but the EVGA card has the advantage of having reference width (and it's also cheaper).
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It's really a problem that most of non-reference 980's have extended pcb.
I think I won't be targeting those cards, and that's the more why you LRPC should, so we'll have some diversity.
With standard pcb width there's still some cards to pick from like:
Gigabyte WindForce both 980 and 970
Gainward Phantom both 980 and 970
Reference 980's and Gainward/Palit/MSI Blower 970's
Still notice that some of those cards have extended PCB but the PEG receptacles are not extended as much so the PEG connectors will fit in the card outline. With that in mind there's still possibility to use those extended cards without much additional space required but the PEG cables will need to bend quite tightly.
I think I won't be targeting those cards, and that's the more why you LRPC should, so we'll have some diversity.
With standard pcb width there's still some cards to pick from like:
Gigabyte WindForce both 980 and 970
Gainward Phantom both 980 and 970
Reference 980's and Gainward/Palit/MSI Blower 970's
Still notice that some of those cards have extended PCB but the PEG receptacles are not extended as much so the PEG connectors will fit in the card outline. With that in mind there's still possibility to use those extended cards without much additional space required but the PEG cables will need to bend quite tightly.
Is that a US standard width for "hifi" equipment?
At least in Europe, "full hifi width" is 430mm (close to 17"), and most if not all cabinets/stands/racks are designed accordingly.
AFD
2[H]4U
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My old hardwood armoire cabinet designed for 4:3 televisions is US market and fits 17" width A/V components just fine. Most of the newer stands I've seen around here lately are open-air design for 46"+ widescreens and are tapered for corner placement. Those only fit 2x 14" components side-by-side on each shelf with no room to spare.
Other than my old 17" receiver, all of my other components are 14" wide.
You also have to consider you're probably going to want an inch of free space on either end for proper ventilation. So a 14" wide enclosure now needs a 16" wide space for proper ventilation.
Necere, what do you think about the rear of this case: http://www.itxcanada.com/index.php?p=product&id=786&parent=119
I find interesting their space saving solution for the PCI slots (like in SteamBox's case, but without the need for a custom pci bracket).
I find interesting their space saving solution for the PCI slots (like in SteamBox's case, but without the need for a custom pci bracket).
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
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That is actually a necessary measure to make 1U risers like this one work:
They let the slot brackets intrude into the ATX I/O keepout area, so you have to set the slots back a bit to actually be ATX standard compliant again and enable the mounting of an I/O shield. I personally think that measure will complicate the design of the case quite a bit and will not be worth the space saved.
They let the slot brackets intrude into the ATX I/O keepout area, so you have to set the slots back a bit to actually be ATX standard compliant again and enable the mounting of an I/O shield. I personally think that measure will complicate the design of the case quite a bit and will not be worth the space saved.
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
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Normally, I wouldn't care what the back of a case looks like, but with so small dimensions many people will want to display it on their desks and there it has to look perfect from every angle.
And that would look like shizzle indeed.
And that would look like shizzle indeed.
I know i have no say in your awesome design however i have just an idea for you to consider:
As the case is physically big enough to hold a uATX (244x244) motherboard,
Is it possible to put the videocard slightly higher so that the first PCIe x16 slot can be used and the rest of the mainboard fits below the vidcard?
just an idea
however i have just an idea for you to consider:As the case is physically big enough to hold a uATX (244x244) motherboard,
Is it possible to put the videocard slightly higher so that the first PCIe x16 slot can be used and the rest of the mainboard fits below the vidcard?
just an idea
I studied that configuration - putting the card over the motherboard's expansion slots area.
Its totally possible to fit it that way but there's two problems with that: you have to have something like 24cm ribbon length riser and some construction that will hold the card properly and have the proper chipset ventilation.
The last problem with this is the dimension of the case. its either really wide 450mm with deep of 250mm or 325mm wide and 370mm deep. First is too wide and second is too deep. IT just doesn't look right this way.
There's better way to support mATX/uATX now thanks to short "itx" ~175mm cards. You can make similar design with power supply just after the card
Its totally possible to fit it that way but there's two problems with that: you have to have something like 24cm ribbon length riser and some construction that will hold the card properly and have the proper chipset ventilation.
The last problem with this is the dimension of the case. its either really wide 450mm with deep of 250mm or 325mm wide and 370mm deep. First is too wide and second is too deep. IT just doesn't look right this way.
There's better way to support mATX/uATX now thanks to short "itx" ~175mm cards. You can make similar design with power supply just after the card
Physically big enough to hold a micro atx motherboard, sure, but then where does the power supply go?
Its a lot more than a simple fix like your suggesting, your talking about a MUCH larger enclosure, and thats not the scope of this case.
to visualize what i wanted say, i started putting some amateur stuff together
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0eulRZRVdMjRkpmZGQ1MFlrTjg/view?usp=sharing
front/back: you can see the vidcard overhang (possible in ~130x300x360)
Used some models: SFX power supply, PCI-e riser card, a 280mm vidcard, asrock x99m board, 2x 3.5" HDD.
i do not want to impose a longer discussion; so i put a sock in my mouth about this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0eulRZRVdMjRkpmZGQ1MFlrTjg/view?usp=sharing
front/back: you can see the vidcard overhang (possible in ~130x300x360)
Used some models: SFX power supply, PCI-e riser card, a 280mm vidcard, asrock x99m board, 2x 3.5" HDD.
i do not want to impose a longer discussion; so i put a sock in my mouth about this
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You can't do it this way due to few things:
If you put vga coolers facing motherboard and the motherboard front panel's connectors are below the cooler then those are gonna go into the cooler all the time unless safely pinned down somehow.
Also it will block the fresh air going to the gpu cooler and it will suck hot air from around chipset.
I don't really get why but most hard risers like that dont have the pci-e offset so the VGA bracket is obstructing IO shield and IO area.
And finally that triangular tower would be ugly as hell
If you put vga coolers facing motherboard and the motherboard front panel's connectors are below the cooler then those are gonna go into the cooler all the time unless safely pinned down somehow.
Also it will block the fresh air going to the gpu cooler and it will suck hot air from around chipset.
I don't really get why but most hard risers like that dont have the pci-e offset so the VGA bracket is obstructing IO shield and IO area.
And finally that triangular tower would be ugly as hell
to visualize what i wanted say, i started putting some amateur stuff together
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0eulRZRVdMjRkpmZGQ1MFlrTjg/view?usp=sharing
front/back: you can see the vidcard overhang (possible in ~130x300x360)
i do not want to impose a longer discussion; so i put a sock in my mouth about this
The visualization of the location for the PSU in that picture would add about 3 inches to the width and add about 2.5 inches to the height. Overall volume would increase from around 9 liters to around 17 liters. It would be nearly twice as large just to accommodate a micro atx motherboard.
The entire reason for this thread is to have a steam box styled enclosure smaller than we can already commercially get from the Silverstone ML07 which is 14 liters. And your idea would end up being larger not smaller. There are some people (myself included) who think this case is already too big as is. I personally want the 7 liter enclosure valve showed off as a prototype, and i'll just figure out how to make custom cabling to fit in hardware.
We want something the size of an Xbox, that will look like a video game console. And unfortunately a micro atx motherboard is just too large to fit into something the size of a console.
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i know that,
... i just noticed uATX was part of the thread here, so there was some sort of 'wish' for it. Just wanted to shed a different light on it.
and the vidcard fan is fine, I have tried it out here, it cools just fine. But I really don't get the notion about potential cable routing issues into FAN; plenty of solutions for those kinda issues.
i know my modeling sux i just started an hour ago my first time with this stuff, haha.
my simple amateur case is 13 liters , if you make it square
so, enough of my stuff, i put sock in my mouth now
... i just noticed uATX was part of the thread here, so there was some sort of 'wish' for it. Just wanted to shed a different light on it.
and the vidcard fan is fine, I have tried it out here, it cools just fine. But I really don't get the notion about potential cable routing issues into FAN; plenty of solutions for those kinda issues.
i know my modeling sux
i just started an hour ago my first time with this stuff, haha.my simple amateur case is 13 liters , if you make it square
so, enough of my stuff, i put sock in my mouth now
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i know that,
... i just noticed uATX was part of the thread here, so there was some sort of 'wish' for it. Just wanted to shed a different light on it.
and the vidcard fan is fine, I have tried it out here, it cools just fine. But I really don't get the notion about potential cable routing issues into FAN; plenty of solutions for those kinda issues.
i know my modeling sux
my simple amateur case is 13 liters , if you make it square
so, enough of my stuff, i put sock in my mouth now
Theres another thread where they are trying to make a micro atx case smaller than the SG09: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1816110, they have it down to 15 liters. Your going to have a hard time getting it smaller than this. Theres a lot of little things most people don't know about that cause case size to increase that you normally don't learn about until you start actually trying to make a case. Like the extra clearance for cabling, or standoff heights etc etc.
Honestly i have only heard of 2 reasons why someone NEEDS a micro atx motherboard over an itx. A second graphics card, or more than 16GB worth of memory. Everything else you can do with an itx motherboard over a micro atx motherboard with less space. Usually the dual graphics card issue can be overcome by just using a faster single graphics card. I don't know of any games that NEED something more than the fastest single graphics card out right now. So then its not really a need but a want, and wants are the first to go when trying to make cases smaller.
Your case layout in the picture doesn't allow for a second graphics card, so then the only reason i can think of that you need a micro atx motherboard is for more than 16GB worth of memory. There are very few gaming related use cases that i can think of that needs that much physical memory, probably the most common that comes to mind is using ISOBoxer to run multiple accounts of a game at once.
So MAYBE if your trying to run more than a half dozen copies of a game at once on a single computer with ISOBoxer, i can see needing a micro atx motherboard for more physical memory, but now you are talking about a very specialized use case and at a certain point you have to think "are there enough people to buy something that specialized that i can get a buy order put in that won't cost a fortune per unit".
True,
if it existed i would buy a mini-itx
i am combining 2 different worlds: compile machine for software (=lots of threads/cores), and a game machine.
am actually already using 31gb ram for some of my games,
8/16 core/threads, single gpu and portable are my personal requirements, and that means a x99 chipset :-/
thanks for the link i'll take a look at it
if it existed i would buy a mini-itx
i am combining 2 different worlds: compile machine for software (=lots of threads/cores), and a game machine.
am actually already using 31gb ram for some of my games,
8/16 core/threads, single gpu and portable are my personal requirements, and that means a x99 chipset :-/
thanks for the link i'll take a look at it
Aibohphobia
[H]ard|Gawd
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Actually Nova started at 14.6L and has since gone up to 17.0L, though a large part of that is the addition of a fifth expansion slot.
There are other types of cards someone may want other than a second video card, like a RAID controller, sound card, Thunderbolt, capture card, etc.
Though with the video card parallel to the board those extra slots are unuseable so that just leaves more RAM and that will be fixed with Skylake and 16GB DDR4 sticks.
There are other types of cards someone may want other than a second video card, like a RAID controller, sound card, Thunderbolt, capture card, etc.
Though with the video card parallel to the board those extra slots are unuseable so that just leaves more RAM and that will be fixed with Skylake and 16GB DDR4 sticks.