Creationists Demand Equal Airtime Over Cosmos Content

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ManofGod said:
So, the sacrifice that Jesus made in our behalf is not Love? The fact that all have sinned and are already on the path to destruction except that he came to take us from that path is not Love? So what is Love then, that someone should do whatever they want whenever they want however they want but their should be no consequences for their decisions?

Also, please cut the political crap out of it, tying this into politics or making it political is just so.......... :rolleyes:
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If I did something incredible that saved mankind from their sin and people didn't believe I did it I would not condemn them to enternal suffering and hell. I guess I'm more loving than god himself?
 
Majinhoju said:
If I did something incredible that saved mankind from their sin and people didn't believe I did it I would not condemn them to enternal suffering and hell. I guess I'm more loving than god himself?
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Well, let's be fair. If we're assuming MoG there is working off a literal biblical interpretation, after Jesus appears, there's no more Hell. AS I understand it the new Testement does not reference hell as an alternative to salvation. It says, Believe and be saved, but offers no explanation to what happens otherwise.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
That was like 500 years ago. I don't think anything would stay the same from the 18th century until now. I guess that compared to a lot of more smart awesome nations that are a lot older, it seems weird to think that nothing would change in the short time the US has been around, but its okay, I think most people living in the US are sorta dumb too...I mean between the angry political junk, the insisting on driving gigantic vehicles while looking at a phone, the guns, and Wal-Mart NASCAR people, I'm scared to go outside.
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Not to mention they weren't all "Christian" as you say it. Thomas Jefferson actually rewrote the entire New Testament to remove all the miracles, and instead be the story of a very inspirational man. Then he hid it and asked for it not to be released until after his death.
 
ManofGod said:
So, the sacrifice that Jesus made in our behalf is not Love? The fact that all have sinned and are already on the path to destruction except that he came to take us from that path is not Love? So what is Love then, that someone should do whatever they want whenever they want however they want but their should be no consequences for their decisions?
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Who decides what is sin and isn't? Who decides what grants forgiveness for those sins? If it's god, why not just forgive them without requiring blood to be spilled? Instead, we get this really confusing model - god makes people who don't know good from evil. Same god tells those people not to eat something that will let them know good from evil. They don't know it's wrong, and are convinced to do it. Same god apparently knew/knows everything, but had to ask why they covered nakedness and get them to admit they ate the fruit (not to mention same god would know they would eat the fruit). Same god demands that something be killed to make it happy. Fast forward a long time, same god sends part of itself to sacrifice to itself to get itself to forgive something that it knew would happen.

There are consequences in the real world for what people do. Of course, the idea of perfect forgiveness and eternal happy afterlife has its own concerns. Person goes on murder rampage (and for shiggles, let's say that person murders a bunch of people who are of a different religion or no religion at all working to help their fellow man at the moment they were murderd), gets caught. genuinely repents, and is put to death. Eternal happiness? Yet the people he kills go to hell? That seems like a messed up value system, to me.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Being able to admit what you don't know is vital. Testing ideas against observations is how you find the answers. If you aren't testing ideas against observations you're just making stuff up, and that's less useful than no answer at all.

The idea of a god or afterlife is within the realm of science. There's no evidence for them, so we don't assume they exist until somebody comes up with some evidence. This is the standard we use for everything else, I can't disprove the existence of unicorns, but nobody argues about the fact that we don't believe in them. Why aren't religious beliefs held to the same standard? Show some evidence that it isn't made up, otherwise there's no reason to believe it in the first place.



Except for that time he drowned everybody, right? Or when Jesus says anyone who doesn't believe in him will be like a dead branch, cast into the fire and burned.

I suspect one of the reasons why the god concept is so pernicious is that he's the ultimate neglectful and abusive parent/lover. He doesn't make sense, he never answers, never apologizes... even though he's fully capable of doing so. In that sense religious fanaticism can be seen as a sort of Stockholm syndrome.



What if we're both wrong and Zeus is the real god? Or Allah? I guess we're both screwed. Or maybe the god is some long forgotten god who is fine with us atheists and agnostics, but send the infidels to suffer for eternity for worshiping false gods.

Anyway, ditto the Jesus thing above. All the conservative Christians I've spoken with throw out this subtle threat in debate. Believe or you'll pay, forever. That's not love.
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You have made some judgements on the actions of God based on either a cursory overview of biblical accounts or what common and poorly educated bible thumpers have told you.

My personal belief regarding the flood is that the population of the earth was corrupt not just spiritually but physically. This is why Noah was considered "perfect in his generations" He was not corrupted. I also believe the people of that time had become totally evil, moreso even than our current age. By taking them out he probably prevented a lot of evil and misery. Bottom line, I trust that God had very good reasons to do what he did.

I also do not believe in "eternal torment" in hell. I believe that you pay for your sins and then you are toast, no forwarding address.

Also, God does answer prayer I have seen it and have also have had genuine supernatural healing and experiences. I think it is rare though, there are a lot of charletans out there.

I was thinking before I read your post that God is probably scientifically explainable but that we just don't have enough information. That does not mean he doesn't exist. There is a lot of evidence that God isn't made up but to most people even diret proof wouldn't mattter.

Anyway, this thread is dead, if you wish to continue the discussion PM me and we can have coffee someday.
 
HardUp4HardWare said:
Also, God does answer prayer I have seen it and have also have had genuine supernatural healing and experiences. I think it is rare though, there are a lot of charletans out there.
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But without an certainty or being reproducible; if it happens, it's God's plan, if it doesn't happen, it was also God's plan. Circular logic means there is no logic. Unfortunately people who believe such things stick to an emotionally-based thinking and throw out all logic. Ironically, this has been studied well in psychology literature.

HardUp4HardWare said:
I was thinking before I read your post that God is probably scientifically explainable but that we just don't have enough information. That does not mean he doesn't exist. There is a lot of evidence that God isn't made up but to most people even diret proof wouldn't mattter.

Anyway, this thread is dead, if you wish to continue the discussion PM me and we can have coffee someday.
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There isn't any evidence that God isn't made up. That's where your mistaken. If anyone could produce concrete evidence that God existed, you'd see most scientific minds say "cool, now we're on to something."

Scientific thinking is the middle ground, we're here to learn and discover more about ourselves and our universe. Because someone doesn't share your faith, belief, or devotion, doesn't mean they're heathens/led astray/damned, it just means whatever reality you've identified with doesn't exist outside your mind, and you haven't proven otherwise. Technically speaking, until someone shows concrete evidence that a god/God/gods/gawd exists, religion might as well be a psychosis.
 
Modred189 said:
Well, let's be fair. If we're assuming MoG there is working off a literal biblical interpretation, after Jesus appears, there's no more Hell. AS I understand it the new Testement does not reference hell as an alternative to salvation. It says, Believe and be saved, but offers no explanation to what happens otherwise.
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If he were and was as "versed" as he claims to be, then he would know that. There is no "Hell" and eternal torment for unbelievers in the new testament, only ceasing to exist. Unfortunately that messages doesn't work for the modern day "Fire and Brimstone" preaching and doesn't guilt people into conversion and parting with their money quite fast enough. So that particular little fact gets swept under the rug and avoided when it suits their message to basically Claim new testament while basically still pushing old testament laws.

HardUp4HardWare said:
You have made some judgements on the actions of God based on either a cursory overview of biblical accounts or what common and poorly educated bible thumpers have told you.

My personal belief regarding the flood is that the population of the earth was corrupt not just spiritually but physically. This is why Noah was considered "perfect in his generations" He was not corrupted. I also believe the people of that time had become totally evil, moreso even than our current age. By taking them out he probably prevented a lot of evil and misery. Bottom line, I trust that God had very good reasons to do what he did.

I also do not believe in "eternal torment" in hell. I believe that you pay for your sins and then you are toast, no forwarding address.

Also, God does answer prayer I have seen it and have also have had genuine supernatural healing and experiences. I think it is rare though, there are a lot of charletans out there.

I was thinking before I read your post that God is probably scientifically explainable but that we just don't have enough information. That does not mean he doesn't exist. There is a lot of evidence that God isn't made up but to most people even diret proof wouldn't mattter.

Anyway, this thread is dead, if you wish to continue the discussion PM me and we can have coffee someday.
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There was no world wide Flood..Ever. Fully proven and indisputable Archaelogical evidence has proven this beyond Any doubt. If there had Ever been a world wide flood, there would be clear evidence of it. There is evidence of Every single major flood, Asteroid impact and Volcanic eruption, But Zero evidence a world wide flood ever happened. It is utter and complete bunk. Additionally the World flood story came about in many older religions long before and given the scope of the "size" of the world then, at most it was a Regional food that through a few thousand years of "telephone" became Noah's Ark. Additionally our DNA prove beyond any doubt that our genetics extend well beyond 4000 years, so that alone eliminates the whole Adam/Eve and Noah's family bullshit.

They are nice stories for the extremely uninformed, but from a "Can you prove it" perspective they fall apart faster than the average child's fairy tale.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
If he were and was as "versed" as he claims to be, then he would know that. There is no "Hell" and eternal torment for unbelievers in the new testament, only ceasing to exist. Unfortunately that messages doesn't work for the modern day "Fire and Brimstone" preaching and doesn't guilt people into conversion and parting with their money quite fast enough. So that particular little fact gets swept under the rug and avoided when it suits their message to basically Claim new testament while basically still pushing old testament laws.



There was no world wide Flood..Ever. Fully proven and indisputable Archaelogical evidence has proven this beyond Any doubt. If there had Ever been a world wide flood, there would be clear evidence of it. There is evidence of Every single major flood, Asteroid impact and Volcanic eruption, But Zero evidence a world wide flood ever happened. It is utter and complete bunk. Additionally the World flood story came about in many older religions long before and given the scope of the "size" of the world then, at most it was a Regional food that through a few thousand years of "telephone" became Noah's Ark. Additionally our DNA prove beyond any doubt that our genetics extend well beyond 4000 years, so that alone eliminates the whole Adam/Eve and Noah's family bullshit.

They are nice stories for the extremely uninformed, but from a "Can you prove it" perspective they fall apart faster than the average child's fairy tale.
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Yes there is proof. Because if Noah hadn't gotten on the ark we wouldn't be here! HA! There's your proof!!!

Sorry, I had to say that. Whatever, I don't neccessarily buy the hardcore creationist 6000 year deal. The fact that you can't discuss the issue without swearing means you are probably so totally biased and angry that there is no point even talking to you.

Why are you mad at God, did someone touch you?
 
HardUp4HardWare said:
Yes there is proof. Because if Noah hadn't gotten on the ark we wouldn't be here! HA! There's your proof!!!

Sorry, I had to say that. Whatever, I don't neccessarily buy the hardcore creationist 6000 year deal. The fact that you can't discuss the issue without swearing means you are probably so totally biased and angry that there is no point even talking to you.

Why are you mad at God, did someone touch you?
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Capstone to this childlike mentality we've been seeing, you A) can't even handle someone swearing and B) when proven wrong resort to ad hominem attacks. I thought you were leaving this thread anyway, or are you back just to make certain everyone can see how inane your arguments are?
 
HardUp4HardWare said:
Yes there is proof. Because if Noah hadn't gotten on the ark we wouldn't be here! HA! There's your proof!!!

Sorry, I had to say that. Whatever, I don't neccessarily buy the hardcore creationist 6000 year deal. The fact that you can't discuss the issue without swearing means you are probably so totally biased and angry that there is no point even talking to you.

Why are you mad at God, did someone touch you?
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Quite possibly the weakest cop out in the entire thread. I'll assume you aren't a very "travelled" person, otherwise you wouldn't be hanging up on a single word, much less one that clearly isn't angry. I hate to break it to you, but in some regions words are just words and context is more important. I'll simply refer you to the first reply you got and say, when you feel like talking with the adults we will be here.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
There was no world wide Flood..Ever. Fully proven and indisputable Archaelogical evidence has proven this beyond Any doubt. If there had Ever been a world wide flood, there would be clear evidence of it. There is evidence of Every single major flood, Asteroid impact and Volcanic eruption, But Zero evidence a world wide flood ever happened.
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i disagree with the ever part, there is a certain logic that the earth formed without water, and then an ice asteroid or non-kuiper comet eventually crashed into our planet, which provided our water. combine this with that moon water matches earth water and that the moon was once part of earth, and one could potentially infer a global flood billions of years ago, before the moon's origin and life.
 
Ocean said:
i disagree with the ever part, there is a certain logic that the earth formed without water, and then an ice asteroid or non-kuiper comet eventually crashed into our planet, which provided our water. combine this with that moon water matches earth water and that the moon was once part of earth, and one could potentially infer a global flood billions of years ago, before the moon's origin and life.
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Ok fair enough, Not during the time of Modern Man has there ever been a world flood then. ;)
 
HardUp4HardWare said:
Untestable claims are worthless that is why science is not the answer to life the universe and everything.

I know the things I know from experience, research, life and from digging through the crap of this world to get to the truth. Truth can be known, but you have to be ready to accept it. Most people prefer lies, take politics for example they lie to our faces and we line up and vote for them anyway.

Pointless to debate though, I honestly don't think I can convince anyone who doesn't want to believe in God to accept it. Why would you even bother posting in this thread if you didn't have some interest in others opinions? I was just trying to address your question.

God is omnipotent and omniscient and created man with freewill, he doesn't "get off" on people getting punished or going to "hell" he is love and does what he does out of that singular motivation.

The great thing is....one of us will be proven right.
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Many important theories couldn't be proven given the technology of the time. That may be really hard for you to understand why these theories are important. I won't bother quoting Einstein.
 
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The number of literal creationists dwindles all the time. Even among the religious. Let them protest and cry and whine and deny every new scientific discovery. They are going to be about as easy to find as a live dinosaur in a few generations.
 
KENNYB said:
Many important theories couldn't be proven given the technology of the time. That may be really hard for you to understand why these theories are important. I won't bother quoting Einstein.
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The difference is that those theories were testable. They may not have been testable at the time due to technological limitations, but you could test them. Just like looking for the higgs field - earlier colliders couldn't actually test it, but the theory had falsifiability and testability. Same with gravitational lensing, dark matter, etc. All make testable claims (that are often mathematically verifiable as well before testing).
 
I liked the last episode. Drawing a little circle around the area of the milky way glalaxy where light would have time to get to earth makes a good point. To consider an alternative makes numerous silly assumptions, including that "god" made everything 1 second ago in its present state, since that's the level of care required to ensure we get high energy particles and light from distant galaxies.
 
pxc said:
I liked the last episode. Drawing a little circle around the area of the milky way glalaxy where light would have time to get to earth makes a good point. To consider an alternative makes numerous silly assumptions, including that "god" made everything 1 second ago in its present state, since that's the level of care required to ensure we get high energy particles and light from distant galaxies.
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I believe in God and the Bible, however... you are definitely correct. This universe and beyond has been in place for BILLIONS of years if not LONGER. We are definitely part of something that has been in existence for far longer than anyone could possibly fathom.
 
well at present our measurements place the universe at 13.8 billion years. what's +- a few million amongst friends? :p
 
I also have to say that I find the idea of an infinitely knowledgeable and infinitely powerful being only having been in business for 6000 years is pretty weak. If anything, those descriptors match up with the sizes of the universe having been put forth by scientists. An infinitely knowledgeable and powerful being wouldn't limit themselves to something so small-scale. Even Deep Thought took longer than that.
 
Stiletto said:
I also have to say that I find the idea of an infinitely knowledgeable and infinitely powerful being only having been in business for 6000 years is pretty weak. If anything, those descriptors match up with the sizes of the universe having been put forth by scientists. An infinitely knowledgeable and powerful being wouldn't limit themselves to something so small-scale. Even Deep Thought took longer than that.
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Exactly sir! I agree whole-heartedly...
 
Stiletto said:
I also have to say that I find the idea of an infinitely knowledgeable and infinitely powerful being only having been in business for 6000 years is pretty weak. If anything, those descriptors match up with the sizes of the universe having been put forth by scientists. An infinitely knowledgeable and powerful being wouldn't limit themselves to something so small-scale. Even Deep Thought took longer than that.
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Except that GOD created time, therefore, he is not subject to time or effected by time. Time is a function of creation and whether we agree with how he did it or not, our perspective is skewed by our limited understanding of time. By the way, you got the time? :D
 
ManofGod said:
Except that GOD created time, therefore, he is not subject to time or effected by time. Time is a function of creation and whether we agree with how he did it or not, our perspective is skewed by our limited understanding of time. By the way, you got the time? :D
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this is the point in time (ha) at which we demand evidence for your claims. ;)
 
ManofGod said:
Except that GOD created time, therefore, he is not subject to time or effected by time. Time is a function of creation and whether we agree with how he did it or not, our perspective is skewed by our limited understanding of time. By the way, you got the time? :D
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You're more than welcome to believe that if that if you wish. But would it trouble you to provide some evidence to any of your claims you've made in this thread? :D
 
I've passed the idea many times that the possibility that time as we humans experience it correlating 1:1 with time as a supreme creator would experience it is next to nil. Heck, there's a passage in the Bible that states that a "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." Given that, it kind of baffles me why so many take a literal translation of Genesis stating that the Earth was created in 7 days and is only 6000 years old.
 
SRTie4k said:
I've passed the idea many times that the possibility that time as we humans experience it correlating 1:1 with time as a supreme creator would experience it is next to nil. Heck, there's a passage in the Bible that states that a "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." Given that, it kind of baffles me why so many take a literal translation of Genesis stating that the Earth was created in 7 days and is only 6000 years old.
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Well if you take a literal translation of that passage then 1 day = 1000 years, so 7 days = 7000 years. :p

However it does say "like" so there is some ambiguity there.
 
ManofGod said:
Except that GOD created time, therefore, he is not subject to time or effected by time. Time is a function of creation and whether we agree with how he did it or not, our perspective is skewed by our limited understanding of time. By the way, you got the time? :D
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Nice of you to admit that your comprehension of time is skewed by your limited understanding of time.


Your 6000 units of time could be equivalent to my 13,800,000,000 units of time.


Makes perfect sense since you lack the ability to articulate how long the first day was before the creation of an earth.
 
ManofGod said:
Except that GOD created time, therefore, he is not subject to time or effected by time. Time is a function of creation and whether we agree with how he did it or not, our perspective is skewed by our limited understanding of time. By the way, you got the time? :D
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So the six days it took for him to create the universe is BS because of our lack of understanding how time effects god?
 
The concept of "time" is a real thing but the ways in which we measure time are totally arbitrary. The way we measure time would invariably be completely different than an alien species, for example.
 
Majinhoju said:
You're more than welcome to believe that if that if you wish. But would it trouble you to provide some evidence to any of your claims you've made in this thread? :D
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It's called "the god of the gaps" and has been employed for as long as new knowledge explains things unknown during the time the bible was written.

The basis of the old testament, for example, was written somewhere between ~900BCE-400BCE by most estimates: a great time for mythology, a bad time for methodological analysis assisted by technology. :D

The best part is that no proof is necessary to employ christian apologistics, not even using the sacred text since it's horrendously incomplete and contradictory (even ignoring the many translation errors and selective reading which give rise to all kinds of tomfoolery).
 
MavericK96 said:
The concept of "time" is a real thing but the ways in which we measure time are totally arbitrary. The way we measure time would invariably be completely different than an alien species, for example.
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True, but time is not perceived, but observed. One sec will still equal one sec, but what it is called might be different throughout the universe. Even though the speed of time might change depending on the mass, velocity, gravity, etc... of where it's being measured, it is still relative constant.
 
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