Why wont Nvidia support Hybrid PhysX?

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rgMekanic

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I was thinking about doing hybrid PhysX with my new 7970, but the steps seem like a bit of a PITA for such few games that use it.

But it brought about a question, why wont Nvidia just directly support it? They would make more money as ATI fans like myself would buy an Nvidia card for a dedicated PPU, and we all know how much Nvidia likes making money.

Just seems dumb to me when Nvidia could say "Okay, buy your ATI card, but you'll still have to come to us for a PPU" instead of saying "No PhysX for you!"

or even better if they released a dedicated PPU that was worth a damn.

Just a thought/rant to get everyone PhysX and let Nvidia make more money.

~Rich
 
The only not totally douchy reason I can think up is that they don't want to deal with having to deal with testing AMD drivers to make sure nothing either of them does breaks things. Though, there is a big difference between them saying "do it at your own risk, we're not going to support it" and "we are actively preventing you from doing it at all". I think PhysX has so much more potential than what is being utilized simply due to Nvidia blocking out roughly half the GPU market.
 
Derangel said:
The only not totally douchy reason I can think up is that they don't want to deal with having to deal with testing AMD drivers to make sure nothing either of them does breaks things. Though, there is a big difference between them saying "do it at your own risk, we're not going to support it" and "we are actively preventing you from doing it at all". I think PhysX has so much more potential than what is being utilized simply due to Nvidia blocking out roughly half the GPU market.
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agreed, I saw the BS from Nvidia about not wanting to do testing, and it's an easy fix, unlock the stuff and let us do the testing, if it works, awesome, they get more sales, if it doesn't oh well.
 
Why can't you buy a Chevrolet at a Ford dealer?

Look NVidia bought the IP and has worked with it; and is slowly rolling it out.
It's theirs, they own it and they get to do what they want.

If AMD wants to use PhysX, they will need to pay for it.
 
rgMekanic said:
agreed, I saw the BS from Nvidia about not wanting to do testing, and it's an easy fix, unlock the stuff and let us do the testing, if it works, awesome, they get more sales, if it doesn't oh well.
Click to expand...

Ahh, I get it. So you want them to support it...but not support it.
 
Why?

Because it just so happens to be a selling point for alot of people to go with Nvidia?
Because it would cost them MONEY to add support for something which would potentially make them lose sales? I don't get how they would gain sales by allowing their DIRECT COMPETITOR access to their proprietary technology.
"It's an easy fix, unlock the stuff" - something tells me you have no idea how these things work - I very highly doubt its that simple.

Its like being mad Samsung for not letting Apple use their features. Move on people.
 
Phishy714 said:
Why?

Because it just so happens to be a selling point for alot of people to go with Nvidia?
Because it would cost them MONEY to add support for something which would potentially make them lose sales? I don't get how they would gain sales by allowing their DIRECT COMPETITOR access to their proprietary technology.
"It's an easy fix, unlock the stuff" - something tells me you have no idea how these things work - I very highly doubt its that simple.

Its like being mad Samsung for not letting Apple use their features. Move on people.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand what Hybrid Physx is. Hybrid PhysX is running a Nvidia card for PhysX while having your main card be an AMD GPU. It has nothing to do with giving AMD anything. In fact, it used to work. Nvidia had to go out of their to block it.
 
jwcalla said:
Wouldn't AMD have to write support in their drivers though?
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No, you use Nvidia drivers for the Nvidia card you're using for PhysX

magoo said:
Why can't you buy a Chevrolet at a Ford dealer?
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The Ford won't disable itself if it detects a Chevy in my garage.

Parja said:
Ahh, I get it. So you want them to support it...but not support it.
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No, I want them to unblock the use of it when an AMD card is present, no other support necessary.

Phishy714 said:
Why?

Because it just so happens to be a selling point for alot of people to go with Nvidia?
Because it would cost them MONEY to add support for something which would potentially make them lose sales?

"It's an easy fix, unlock the stuff" - something tells me you have no idea how these things work - I very highly doubt its that simple.
Click to expand...

It would not cost them anything, and how is AMD fans buying an Nvidia card so they can have PhysX costing them sales? That is gaining them sales!

An yes it is that easy of a fix, they've done it before by accident!!

http://blogs.nvidia.com/2010/05/update-on-release-256-physx-support-1/

A lot of you have been asking about PhysX and the 257.15 beta driver we posted on Monday. First off it is true that PhysX is enabled when running on NVIDIA GPUs when AMD GPUs are used in the same system. PhysX is a compelling technology that makes PC games great – I am not surprised our fans are eager for it. When using this beta driver no additional hacks are required to enable PhysX. While it was not intentional, due to the overwhelming positive response to the beta driver we have decided to leave the beta up with support enabled.
Click to expand...
 
only need 1 icon period

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Anyone trying to say otherwise is lieing and bullshitting you
 
Thought they were adding PhysX to the Xbox One? If so then it'll run on AMD, maybe that'll translate to it working on the PC.
 
Derangel said:
In order for AMD GPUs to support PhysX AMD would need to license CUDA and probably license the PhysX tech.
Click to expand...

PhysX is open to devs, and AMD doesn't need to licence anything, I'm talking about running PhysX on an NVIDIA card when an AMD card is present in the system.

Even if you have ONBOARD graphics, DISABLED in the bios, Nvidia still locks PhysX
 
canon.tk said:
Thought they were adding PhysX to the Xbox One? If so then it'll run on AMD, maybe that'll translate to it working on the PC.
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It'll be software-only PhysX since there's no NVIDIA hardware, so same option as you have on a non-NVIDIA PC today.
 
It's pretty simple to set up PhysX with an ATI + Nvidia card:

FIRST. Install the ATI card into the machine, Then install the newest drivers (10.3 at the moment). Then shut the PC down.

SECOND. Install the Nvidia card in the second PCIex slot, then boot into safe mode. Install the 196.21 drivers. After the drivers are installed DO NOT RESTART.

THIRD. Run the physx mod 1.3 exe file you extracted. when the program loads press CAKE and it will patch the files in your OS. once its done restart the PC.

To check to see if it is working, run fluidmark and it should say hardware physx. if it doesn't, go to nvidia control panel and disable physx then re enable physx and test again.

* NOTES:
1. If you are unable to patch the files due to "file in use" error, you may try one of the following solutions:
- Terminate all NVIDIA runtimes (nv***.exe) and Windows Explorer shell (explorer.exe) manually before patching.
- Try using the mod under Safe Mode.
2. It is safe to apply the patch several times - all needed files will be patched only once.
3. After reboot you may find "*.tmp" files in system directories left after patching. You can safely delete or leave them.
4. This mod only works on Windows 7 and Windows XP. for some reason it doesn't work on VISTA
5. The only problem i have noticed is when you restart, it sometimes doesn't enable physx even tho Nvidia control panel says it is. just go to nvidia control panel and disable physx then re enable physx and test again. ALWAYS CHECK WITH FLUIDMARK!! It should says hardware physx at the top of the test.
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- http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119217&highlight=physX
 
silkstone said:
It's pretty simple to set up PhysX with an ATI + Nvidia card:



- http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119217&highlight=physX
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Old way, changed with newer drivers, current process ..
Steps to fallow: Works on windows XP , 7 and 8. (DOES NOT WORK ON WINDOWS VISTA)

1: shutdown your computer and install the nvidia card on the second pci-e slot.

2: connect all cables and boot up your computer.

3: Once the system is finished loading. Download these programs.

[link to www..com] (Prehybrd)

[link to www..com] (hybridiz)

and the lastest Nvidia Drivers from Nvidia website.

You might need to deactivate your anti-virus to install Physx.. If you get an installation faillure on Physx.

You can unselect all the other functions INCLUDING NVIDIA UPDATE!!!

First decompress all the Files of the drivers on a folder you created on desktop, then cancel installation for now.

4: uninstall all drivers that have been automaticly installed by your opperating system on the nvidia card.

Look for installed physx and uninstall it. uninstall all present nvidia software.

5: reboot! Yay!

6: Start the installation of the drivers from the folder on your desktop. (setup.exe) Run as admin on 7 and 8!

7: Do not reboot yet! at this point i assume Physx installed just fine.

Go on your Program files (x86) folder and search for Nvidia Coorporation folder.

Open that folder and pay attention to the Common folder as well as the Engine one.

8: Execute Prehybrd as admin! It wont work otherwise for 7 and 8. (you might need to keep your AV offline during this.)
(pay attention to the command line window, If you see text flashing, then something is not working) Check your Anti-virus.

9: check the nvidia coorporation folder... the common folder is no more! (this is normal.)

10: Run the Physx.msi installer from the Driver folder on your desktop. should be in the physx folder.

Execute as admin on 7 and 8! (repair the installation.)
Press finish and look on the nvidia coorporation folder! the common folder is back!

11: Now you can run hybridiz. as admin on 7 and 8! (You must do it that way or else it wont work, even if your User account control is disabled!)

12: reboot your computer!

13: go on the hardware device menager and force reinstalling the Ati driver. Select the same one shown by default.

this will fix any areo issues on windows 7. (it still should be performed on windows 8 and XP.

14: Download Gpu-z from techpowerup.
look at the check boxes bellow the Ati card specs and you should have the Physx box checked!

For specifc games using physx you will need to remove the Physxdevice.dll and physxcore.dll on specifc games.

Dont delete the files just like that. just try lunching the game without the files and see if physx is running smoothly!

Then you may delete the files.

PS: game such as Alice Madness returns and Batman arknam city have a specifc folder for the physxloader.dll

the .dll you need in this case are all in the Nvidia coorporation common folder. Copy the files you need at the right place and remove the physxdevice.dll from the game folder.

15: enjoy!
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Last edited:
magoo said:
Why can't you buy a Chevrolet at a Ford dealer?

Look NVidia bought the IP and has worked with it; and is slowly rolling it out.
It's theirs, they own it and they get to do what they want.

If AMD wants to use PhysX, they will need to pay for it.
Click to expand...

You're assuming AMD could even pay for it if they wanted to. They're cash poor atm and I doubt Nvidia would even license it to them if they did try to buy rights to it. Doing so would require giving AMD access to low level CUDA technology and software, something Nvidia absolutely does not want to do. AMD already eats their lunch in OpenCL (Nvidia's own fault since it's an artificial handicap) so there's no way in hell Nvidia would give them a way to suddenly be able to run CUDA too. It would put a big dent in their TESLA profits if consumer level cards from the competition suddenly had the ability to suddenly run CUDA code.
 
Gman1979 said:
It would put a big dent in their TESLA profits if consumer level cards from the competition suddenly had the ability to suddenly run CUDA code.
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Why would Tesla owners have any interest at all in consumer cards?

Otherwise, yes, keeping CUDA proprietary is a wise business decision. The less competition, the better margins.
 
silkstone said:
They seem quite simple too, just 3 steps. I think the last link there is the latest. But, I agree. Nvidia should bring out their own set of specialized drivers for it. Doing it at the moment is prone to problems :(
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Those are from 2010 .. these are the true latest steps.. http://www.ng ohq.com/graphic-cards/22136-how-to-fix-hybrid-physx-with-latest-physx-and-geforce-285-solved.html

And you all keep thinking I want to run PhysX with an AMD card, that is NOT hybrid PhysX, I want to run a dedicated NVIDIA card as a PPU, but they disable the ability if an AMD card is detected, even if it's INTEGRATED and DISABLED in the bios..

Let me speak slowly.

I have a 7970
I want to BUY a GTX 640 to use for physX
Nvidia wont let me if it sees the 7970.
 
magoo said:
Why can't you buy a Chevrolet at a Ford dealer?

Look NVidia bought the IP and has worked with it; and is slowly rolling it out.
It's theirs, they own it and they get to do what they want.

If AMD wants to use PhysX, they will need to pay for it.
Click to expand...



This... plus it takes resources to support any potential new hybrid physx solution anyway to ensure no driver conflicts, compatibility with games, and general development time. Why on Earth would nVidia *GIVE AWAY* one of their more desirable features to the competition? If you want an nVidia feature, buy an nVidia GPU for gaming.

rgMekanic said:
Let me speak slowly.

I have a 7970
I want to BUY a GTX 640 to use for physX
Nvidia wont let me if it sees the 7970.
Click to expand...

So you want to buy a $50-60 card instead of a $400 card from them, but get the same support & features. I'm sure they'll get right on that :)!
 
GoldenTiger said:
This... plus it takes resources to support any potential new hybrid physx solution anyway to ensure no driver conflicts, compatibility with games, and general development time. Why on Earth would nVidia *GIVE AWAY* one of their more desirable features to the competition? If you want an nVidia feature, buy an nVidia GPU for gaming.



So you want to buy a $50-60 card instead of a $400 card from them, but get the same support & features. I'm sure they'll get right on that :)!
Click to expand...

I know right? These guys don't get the obvious. If NVIDIA enabled PhysX support with AMD cards as the master card, then people would just get a 7970 and run a cheap NVIDIA card for the PhysX features and NVIDIA would lose out on premium card sales. So common sense dictates that they do not support such a setup and instead if people want PhysX, they buy NVIDIA only. In this case, if you want PhysX on a top end card, you buy a 780/Titan instead.
 
I think it is simple. They want people to buy Nvidia GPUs. Rather than buying an AMD GPU, they want you to get an Nvidia GPU in the first place. And then possible sell you a second one for Physx if you want extra performance.

There is more incentive to buy Nvidia by not allowing it. I am pretty sure their profit margins are much higher on expensive GPUs (ex, ~ $250 more for a GTX680 over a 660ti when the manufacturing costs is likely very similar) and they would prefer to sell higher end cards with higher profit margins than selling $100 GPUs with lower profit margins.
 
IMHO I don't see the issue, nor the benefit, to keeping PhysX locked down...

If it was available on BOTH platforms but necessitated a nVidia GPU - nVidia would sell more mid-low range cards. More games would support PhysX, and the effect would be cumulative.

Release it without any guarantee of success. Profit. Literally.
 
The benefit is just that to NVidia.

You gotta buy their stuff. High, middle or low; for PhysX to work you gotta have their product and they get to keep ALL the money, control the process and software development.

AMD should have purchased Havok when they had the chance.:D
 
rgMekanic said:
Those are from 2010 .. these are the true latest steps.. http://www.ng ohq.com/graphic-cards/22136-how-to-fix-hybrid-physx-with-latest-physx-and-geforce-285-solved.html

And you all keep thinking I want to run PhysX with an AMD card, that is NOT hybrid PhysX, I want to run a dedicated NVIDIA card as a PPU, but they disable the ability if an AMD card is detected, even if it's INTEGRATED and DISABLED in the bios..

Let me speak slowly.

I have a 7970
I want to BUY a GTX 640 to use for physX
Nvidia wont let me if it sees the 7970.
Click to expand...

Sell the 7970, buy a 670 if you really want physx
 
Arcygenical said:
Release it without any guarantee of success.
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Generally a bad idea. If it didn't work, even if it wasn't NVIDIA's fault, there would be negative press about it all over the place. "Ohh PhysX is a half-baked technology... forget this crap... yada yada."
 
magoo said:
The benefit is just that to NVidia.

You gotta buy their stuff. High, middle or low; for PhysX to work you gotta have their product and they get to keep ALL the money, control the process and software development.

AMD should have purchased Havok when they had the chance.:D
Click to expand...

And because of that mindset hardware PhysX is forever doomed to be a neat novelty included in Nvidia sponsored titles.
 
rgMekanic said:
Those are from 2010 .. these are the true latest steps.. http://www.ng ohq.com/graphic-cards/22136-how-to-fix-hybrid-physx-with-latest-physx-and-geforce-285-solved.html
Click to expand...

The last link there had the OP updated this month.

Edit - Damn thing doesn't work: the forum fubared the link :(

http://www.ng ohq.com/graphic-cards/17706-hybrid-physx-mod-v1-03-v1-05ff.html

I dunno, I haven't spent a huge amount of time looking into it, so I am sure you know more about it. I was thinking about getting a 7850 then spending an extra $50 on a physX card, but in the end I decided that getting a higher end graphics card would be money better spent.
 
Only the stupidest and most gullible fanboy would be able to defend this. Hybrid physx worked, Nvidia went out of their way to disable it, and it's outrageous. Simple as that.
 
Yeah, Nvidia is just being childish. It's not like Nvidia has to change anything other than disable arbitrary limits. Oh noes! An ATI card might show teh higher frames den our card with hardware PhysX enabled! :rolleyes:

PhysX isn't only included in "Nvidia sponsored titles" though. The terms for free usage are pretty nice for many developers and the price is a lot cheaper than Havok Physics for others.

It will be interesting once GPU accelerated Havok Physics comes out, apparently on consoles first. There's little reason to think it won't also be available on PCs eventually too.
 
Hasn't nvidia already started to cave?

They have announced the PhysX SDK is available for Xbox One development, essentially a AMD GPU
 
memphist0 said:
Hasn't nvidia already started to cave?

They have announced the PhysX SDK is available for Xbox One development, essentially a AMD GPU
Click to expand...

PhysX is not limited to the GPU accelerated component most people associate with it. From Nvidia's announcement -
NVIDIA PhysX and APEX technologies are designed to run on a variety of CPU architectures and can be accelerated by any CUDA® architecture-enabled NVIDIA GPU, GeForce 8-series or higher.
Click to expand...

PhysX was available for the xbox 360 (AMD GPU) and PS3 (GPU does not support CUDA). PhysX has also been used in games without GPU acceleration as well on the PC.
 
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