Microsoft Grows Surface Family

[HardOCP News]

Microsoft Corp. today announced that its Surface family of PCs is growing. Its newest model — Surface Windows 8 Pro — will be available for purchase on Feb. 9, 2013, in the United States and Canada at all Microsoft retail stores, Staples and Best Buy in the U.S., as well as from a number of locations in Canada. Powered by an Intel Core i5 processor, Surface Windows 8 Pro provides the power and performance of a laptop in a tablet package. Perfect as your one device — at home, in the office, or on the road — it can run Windows 8 applications, as well as current Windows 7 desktop applications. Starting at an estimated retail price of US$899, Surface Windows 8 Pro will be available in 64GB and 128GB models.

 

[krotch]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what is the difference between Win 8, Win 8 Pro, and Win 8 Enterprise. As I'm just using it a home, I can't see a difference between Win 8 and Win 8 Enterprise, except the inability to activate Enterprise without a KMS (unless you go the old fashioned cmd prompt fix).

Maybe when I get back to my home network, I'll get to make use of all the enterprise features. For now, as it's just a standalone, it feels the same as Win 8.

 

[SkribbelKat]

At least they disclaim it:

1 System software uses significant storage space; your storage capacity will be less. See surface.com/storage. 1 GB = 1 billion bytes * Word 2013 and Office 2013 are sold separately.

Source: http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/surface-with-windows-8-pro/home

I wonder how much the 128 GB model will cost if the base model is $900. Probably about $1000. Then add $100 or so for a keyboard.

 

[pelo]

Less storage space, crappier hardware and shittier display along with a fraction of the applications for only twice the price?

Where do I sign up?

 

[SkribbelKat]

Less storage space, crappier hardware and shittier display along with a fraction of the applications for only twice the price?

Where do I sign up?

But it has teh Wacoms inside it! The fact that there's the brand name of another company involved makes it a thousand times more interesting even if the battery life is not competitive and the design prevents you from turning it off, sticking in a fresh battery and turning it back on again.

 

[Ducman69]

Less storage space, crappier hardware and shittier display along with a fraction of the applications for only twice the price?

Where do I sign up?

Jigga what?

Crappier hardware than what? And fraction of the applications compared to what? Windows 8 is backwards compatable even with Windows XP applications for the most part, meaning it has the largest software library in the world.

Step away from the crack pipe son.

 

[pelo]

The Surface RT, friend. And no, it isn't compatible with anything and has a smaller software library than even the BlackBerry stuff. A Tegra 3 tablet with a 1366x768 display and more than half of the storage space chewed up by nonsense.

They didn't only add the Surface Pro to their lineup but also some more RT products.

In addition to being able to buy Surface Windows 8 Pro in the coming weeks, customers will soon be able to purchase Surface Windows RT in 13 additional markets worldwide,[2] more than double the number of markets in which Surface is currently available.

“The response to Surface has been exciting to see,” said Panos Panay, general manager, Microsoft Surface. “We’re thrilled to continue growing the Surface family with the availability of Surface Windows 8 Pro on Feb. 9 and by increasing the number of places customers can experience Surface firsthand.”

Additional Surface accessories will also soon be available, allowing customers to further personalize and customize their computing experience and get more done with Surface.

Surface Windows RT will be available in a new 64GB[1] standalone version for an estimated retail price of US$599 to allow customers the option of selecting a Cover of their choice.

Three new Touch Cover Limited Editions in red, magenta and cyan will be sold at an estimated retail price of US$129.99.

Customers will have the option of purchasing a Wedge Touch Mouse, Surface Edition, for an estimated retail price of US$69.95 in all markets in which Surface is currently sold[3] with additional markets to follow in the coming weeks.

It's not like the Surface Pro makes any more sense either. Shitty keyboard, a skyrocket price and a 17W ULV that throttles like mad isn't exactly the recipe for a productivity focused anything.

 

[SkribbelKat]

Jigga what?

Crappier hardware than what?

A laptop that costs less monies will have a larger screen, more processor power and storage, more RAM, and include interface devices that make it more productive.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215672

Plus, laptops don't rely on a small kickstand to hold their screens up so they can be used in more places with greater flexibility than a tablet which either requires a keyboard and some kinda stronger hinge, which drives up costs and makes it into a laptop.

 

[J-Will]

A laptop that costs less monies will have a larger screen, more processor power and storage, more RAM, and include interface devices that make it more productive.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215672

Plus, laptops don't rely on a small kickstand to hold their screens up so they can be used in more places with greater flexibility than a tablet which either requires a keyboard and some kinda stronger hinge, which drives up costs and makes it into a laptop.

I'd argue that a tablet is more flexible in its use because it is smaller. And that it is touch screen, you do not need a keyboard. And the kickstand is integrated.

 

[XamediX]

Sheesh, everyone likes to talk about Heatlessum "defending" microsoft but wow, what about the trolls that go to every single Windows 8 thread to shit on microsoft?

I am either going to get this or the Lenovo Yoga. I would like to see a larger SSD drive at the $899 price point though.

 

[Steelgrave]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what is the difference between Win 8, Win 8 Pro, and Win 8 Enterprise. As I'm just using it a home, I can't see a difference between Win 8 and Win 8 Enterprise, except the inability to activate Enterprise without a KMS (unless you go the old fashioned cmd prompt fix).

Maybe when I get back to my home network, I'll get to make use of all the enterprise features. For now, as it's just a standalone, it feels the same as Win 8.

Google is your friend...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions

 

[J-Will]

Less storage space, crappier hardware and shittier display along with a fraction of the applications for only twice the price?

Where do I sign up?

This is about the Pro version of Surface. I agree with you completely about the RT version though

 

[pelo]

This is about the Pro version of Surface. I agree with you completely about the RT version though

It's about the recent additions to the Surface family, not just the Pro. It's in the article...

 

[Azhar]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what is the difference between Win 8, Win 8 Pro, and Win 8 Enterprise. As I'm just using it a home, I can't see a difference between Win 8 and Win 8 Enterprise, except the inability to activate Enterprise without a KMS (unless you go the old fashioned cmd prompt fix).

Maybe when I get back to my home network, I'll get to make use of all the enterprise features. For now, as it's just a standalone, it feels the same as Win 8.

Well I'm not able to use my free Media Center key on my Technet Enterprise edition, but I can on my Technet Professional edition. So that's one difference, lol.

 

[SkribbelKat]

I'd argue that a tablet is more flexible in its use because it is smaller. And that it is touch screen, you do not need a keyboard. And the kickstand is integrated.

A smaller screen is better? Then things like netbooks, ultraportables, and smartphones would have long ago replaced 20+ inch displays.

The touch capabilities of the screen are only a means of compensating for a lack of more effective interface devices. That was the point behind them when junk like the Palm Pilot became popular a bajillion years ago and remains the point today.

The kickstand does not do a very good job holding the device up on a bed, sofa, in a lap, or on any other non-table-like surface. A laptop balances freely and doesn't need to be coddled around because the base which contains the keyboard holds it up just fine. That makes it more useful on more surfaces than the Surface.

 

[heatlesssun]

It's about the recent additions to the Surface family, not just the Pro. It's in the article...

There is no mention of additional Surface devices in the release. It only mentions that the Surface RT will be available in 13 additional markets in the coming weeks, some new touch covers and the Wedge Touch Mouse, Surface Edition.

 

[pelo]

There is no mention of additional Surface devices in the release. It only mentions that the Surface RT will be available in 13 additional markets in the coming weeks, some new touch covers and the Wedge Touch Mouse, Surface Edition.

Surface Windows RT will be available in a new 64GB[1] standalone version for an estimated retail price of US$599 to allow customers the option of selecting a Cover of their choice.

^^ RTFA

 

[XamediX]

It's about the recent additions to the Surface family, not just the Pro. It's in the article...

There is no mention of additional Surface devices in the release. It only mentions that the Surface RT will be available in 13 additional markets in the coming weeks, some new touch covers and the Wedge Touch Mouse, Surface Edition.

Textbook Strawman argument and a pretty weak one at that. But don't let that stop him, flame on!

Personally, i'm hoping to be able to off my Galaxy Tab 10.1 for about $200 to help subsidize the cost of this. I used think the price point was high but after reading one of Anandtech's ultrabook roundup articles, I realized how price competitive this actually is. Especially when you realize that MS is actually trying NOT to completely cannibalize their OEM partners.

 

[heatlesssun]

^^ RTFA

That's not a new version of the Surface RT, simply a different packaging of existing hardware.

 

[yelsewshane]

Only people I can think of at this time and a months back that would buy a laptop tablet etc are ignorant people. Just around the corner are the haswell cpus from intel that are about 40% more energy effecient and much improved on chip gpu.

 

[SkribbelKat]

That's not a new version of the Surface RT, simply a different packaging of existing hardware.

The dancing begins.

 

[pelo]

That's not a new version of the Surface RT, simply a different packaging of existing hardware.

It's about the recent additions to the Surface family, not just the Pro. It's in the article...

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

A smaller screen is better? Then things like netbooks, ultraportables, and smartphones would have long ago replaced 20+ inch displays.

The touch capabilities of the screen are only a means of compensating for a lack of more effective interface devices. That was the point behind them when junk like the Palm Pilot became popular a bajillion years ago and remains the point today.

The kickstand does not do a very good job holding the device up on a bed, sofa, in a lap, or on any other non-table-like surface. A laptop balances freely and doesn't need to be coddled around because the base which contains the keyboard holds it up just fine. That makes it more useful on more surfaces than the Surface.

Yeah, but using a laptop is utterly painful. Cramped little horrible keyboard, track-pad and that hunched seated position you need to angle the screen and see it better.

I prefer desktops, but for mobile solutions, unless you are going to do a lot of typing, I really like the tablet format.

I just wish they had more powerful GPU's. I'd LOVE to see a low power Trinity chip in one of these. It might even play Civ 5 with the new touch interface...

 

[Wrench00]

I'd argue that a tablet is more flexible in its use because it is smaller. And that it is touch screen, you do not need a keyboard. And the kickstand is integrated.

OOOOHHH a kickstand.. THATS LIKE TEH GREATEST PRODUCTIVITY ADDITION TO COMPUTARS SINCE LIKE THE CPU.

Seriously. My laptop has no kickstand and I can run in circles on my laptop vs productivity a tablet.

 

[rflcptr]

Yeah, but using a laptop is utterly painful. Cramped little horrible keyboard, track-pad and that hunched seated position you need to angle the screen and see it better.

I'd say adjust your work surface or seat, if adjusting the screen is still resulting in your hunching.

 

[SkribbelKat]

Yeah, but using a laptop is utterly painful. Cramped little horrible keyboard, track-pad and that hunched seated position you need to angle the screen and see it better.

I prefer desktops, but for mobile solutions, unless you are going to do a lot of typing, I really like the tablet format.

I just wish they had more powerful GPU's. I'd LOVE to see a low power Trinity chip in one of these. It might even play Civ 5 with the new touch interface...

I'm not seeing much difference in the body position when working with a tablet instead of a laptop.

Products like this http://www.ladiesgadgets.com/tablet-computer-pillow/ even exist to make it possible to use a tablet on a couch or more comfortable setting, just like you can use a laptop. Though, any old pillow will probably do...still, it underscores the point that tablets are only more flexible in a very deceptive useability sense than a laptop. Sitting behind any stupid electronics thing for a long period of time is going to get uncomfortable.

 

[J-Will]

OOOOHHH a kickstand.. THATS LIKE TEH GREATEST PRODUCTIVITY ADDITION TO COMPUTARS SINCE LIKE THE CPU.

Seriously. My laptop has no kickstand and I can run in circles on my laptop vs productivity a tablet.

That is not the point, but thanks for attempting to take something out of context. It was mentioned that a kickstand was needed, I replied that it was integrated. Pretty simple. But I'm glad your laptop gives you better productivity than a tablet

 

[J-Will]

A smaller screen is better? Then things like netbooks, ultraportables, and smartphones would have long ago replaced 20+ inch displays.

The touch capabilities of the screen are only a means of compensating for a lack of more effective interface devices. That was the point behind them when junk like the Palm Pilot became popular a bajillion years ago and remains the point today.

The kickstand does not do a very good job holding the device up on a bed, sofa, in a lap, or on any other non-table-like surface. A laptop balances freely and doesn't need to be coddled around because the base which contains the keyboard holds it up just fine. That makes it more useful on more surfaces than the Surface.

No, a smaller device is better, thinner, lighter, etc. Your touch screen argument sounds like the "iphone lack of keyboard" argument... but I guess some uses need that tactile feedback.

I agree with you about the kickstand. My reply was directed at the comment about needing to purchase a kickstand as an additional cost. And really... it is not good to put laptops on a bed, sofa or lap since blocking the fans could cause overheating. But that is a technical argument versus a usability argument. I agree, a kickstand will not help you use a tablet in a bed.

 

[SkribbelKat]

No, a smaller device is better, thinner, lighter, etc. Your touch screen argument sounds like the "iphone lack of keyboard" argument... but I guess some uses need that tactile feedback.

Even Skribbels, which are self-proclaimed huge wimps, don't have trouble moving around a 6 pound laptop and haven't since they were very tiny Skribbels. The difference between the Surface Pro and a conventional laptop is pretty much unimportant, even for airport travel (though I'm sure some people will say otherwise and that's okay).

I agree with you about the kickstand. My reply was directed at the comment about needing to purchase a kickstand as an additional cost. And really... it is not good to put laptops on a bed, sofa or lap since blocking the fans could cause overheating. But that is a technical argument versus a usability argument. I agree, a kickstand will not help you use a tablet in a bed.

I was sort of vague about the kickstand. The point I was getting to is that it's not effective at holding the device upright on something other than a desk. Even in that setting, there's little to no point in using it if you need to enter data. Without a keyboard, you'd have to pick it up, even to enter a URL. Add a keyboard that has a hinge unit to support it (ala Asus Transformer -- of course, MS doesn't yet have something like that, but other Windows tablets do) and you've basically turned it into an expensive laptop.

 

[Jaerb4]

A laptop that costs less monies will have a larger screen, more processor power and storage, more RAM, and include interface devices that make it more productive.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215672

Plus, laptops don't rely on a small kickstand to hold their screens up so they can be used in more places with greater flexibility than a tablet which either requires a keyboard and some kinda stronger hinge, which drives up costs and makes it into a laptop.

Wow, now you're really reaching.

I can see now that you're just trolling every Surface thread you can, but why not use your insane logic to dismiss the use of laptops all together? You can build your own $400 PC that'll destroy the 17" 7lbs Acer, and you can buy a bigger screen!

Acting as if traveling with a 6lbs notebook is similar to a 2lbs notebook is just stupid. Stop being stupid.

 

[Gibbage]

Laptops and tablets have there own place I think. Tablets are a bit more portable, and typically have better battery life, making them really good for travel. They also tend to have significantly less power then notebooks, limiting there use, and are handicapped OS's like iOS and Android. The Surface PRO tries to bridge the gap between the Tablet and the Notebook.

People keep crying about its price, but its got much better hardware specs all around then the Apple MBA, for less money, and is more portable. You really cant compare it with the iPad since the Pro is a full PC and the iPad is just an expensive toy. Overall, I think that the Surface Pro will be very attractive to business professionals on the go, not a forum full of hardware tweaking wingbats.. =)

 

[boduke]

Polish it anyway you like it - it's still overpriced.

 

[J-Will]

Polish it anyway you like it - it's still overpriced.

Very true... but it worked for the iPad. iPad Vs Surface which one is more versatile? (HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION, fan boys from either camp need not reply). That is going to be the question that people will ask themselves when they go to pick up either device given that there is a choice.

 

[Jaerb4]

Polish it anyway you like it - it's still overpriced.

The smaller you make a device, the worse your performance per dollar gets. This has always been the case and will probably always be the case. The point is that performance has reached diminishing returns for most people's work, therefore one of the next things to push is size (along with screen quality, battery life and a few others.)

The criticisms of the kickstand and keyboard covers are 100% fair and I think they're inadequate for serious use (although I'll test it out anyways,) but complaining about the specs per dollar in a 2lbs i5 ultrabook is completely missing the point.

 

[kbrickley]

I find tablets are much easier to use on an airplane or couch ... at a desk even a laptop can be painful to use ... if there was a decently powered tablet and the right accessories to allow the attachment of keyboards and mice in a desktop environment I could see the tablets replacing some portion of the laptop market ... the desktop market has been shrinking for years (as evidenced by the announcement that Intel will no longer make desktop motherboards)

 

[pelo]

The smaller you make a device, the worse your performance per dollar gets. This has always been the case and will probably always be the case. The point is that performance has reached diminishing returns for most people's work, therefore one of the next things to push is size (along with screen quality, battery life and a few others.)

The criticisms of the kickstand and keyboard covers are 100% fair and I think they're inadequate for serious use (although I'll test it out anyways,) but complaining about the specs per dollar in a 2lbs i5 ultrabook is completely missing the point.

The bigger and heavier your tablet the more it resembles an ultraportable/ultrabook. It's a fine line to walk when attempting to add the convenience of a tablet whilst maintaining the power of a laptop.

4 hours of battery life and a $1000+ price tag for only 32GB of space isn't the right way to do it, though. It's a device that's riddled with compromises yet competing on the highest tier of the market where you'd expect perfection. Is a ~10-11" display with screwed DPI scaling and a crappy keyboard going to set the business sector alight? I don't think so. For productivity related tasks and third-party software (which is essentially everything other than MS Office in a business setting), the tiny display, DPI scaling and shitty keyboard aren't selling points but rather things to steer clear of.

If the Surface Pro sold at ~$700 with 100GB of free space (that's *free space*), twice the battery life and the ability to be docked seamlessly, having the interface change to be more KB+M friendly, then MS would have had a product that's far more compelling than the current iteration of their premiere tablet. For a typical business user who's dependent on the MS OS and Office, a single device that takes care of all of their computing needs at the office and at home would have been perfect. MS is nowhere near that, though.

 

[Jaerb4]

The bigger and heavier your tablet the more it resembles an ultraportable/ultrabook. It's a fine line to walk when attempting to add the convenience of a tablet whilst maintaining the power of a laptop.

4 hours of battery life and a $1000+ price tag for only 32GB of space isn't the right way to do it, though. It's a device that's riddled with compromises yet competing on the highest tier of the market where you'd expect perfection. Is a ~10-11" display with screwed DPI scaling and a crappy keyboard going to set the business sector alight? I don't think so. For productivity related tasks and third-party software (which is essentially everything other than MS Office in a business setting), the tiny display, DPI scaling and shitty keyboard aren't selling points but rather things to steer clear of.

If the Surface Pro sold at ~$700 with 100GB of free space (that's *free space*), twice the battery life and the ability to be docked seamlessly, having the interface change to be more KB+M friendly, then MS would have had a product that's far more compelling than the current iteration of their premiere tablet. For a typical business user who's dependent on the MS OS and Office, a single device that takes care of all of their computing needs at the office and at home would have been perfect. MS is nowhere near that, though.

I agree, but I think the whole thing gets solved with a better keyboard dock. There's no way you're getting down to a $700 price point (nor should you for business users) with an SSD and high quality screen, but they could certainly amend the battery life, ports, typing and weight balance situation if they had an Asus-like dock. I think that's why most people who are interested are waiting for the Lenovo Helix, or at least the next generation where there's likely to be more sane options instead of quirky stuff like the Dell Duo 12 or Lenovo Yoga.

 

[heatlesssun]

If the Surface Pro sold at ~$700 with 100GB of free space (that's *free space*), twice the battery life and the ability to be docked seamlessly, having the interface change to be more KB+M friendly, then MS would have had a product that's far more compelling than the current iteration of their premiere tablet. For a typical business user who's dependent on the MS OS and Office, a single device that takes care of all of their computing needs at the office and at home would have been perfect. MS is nowhere near that, though.

A sub 2 lbs. 1/2" thick non-Atom x86 device with 10 hours and ~128 GB of storage for $700? Such a device is beyond current technology at that price point. But such a device might be possible in the next 18 to 24 months.

And yes, the Surface Pro is a single device that can take care of both home and office needs for plenty of people.

 

[pelo]

I agree, but I think the whole thing gets solved with a better keyboard dock. There's no way you're getting down to a $700 price point (nor should you for business users) with an SSD and high quality screen, but they could certainly amend the battery life, ports, typing and weight balance situation if they had an Asus-like dock. I think that's why most people who are interested are waiting for the Lenovo Helix, or at least the next generation where there's likely to be more sane options instead of quirky stuff like the Dell Duo 12 or Lenovo Yoga.

That isn't an SSD in there, it's NAND eDRAM. It's much slower and also much cheaper. It's quite literally only a few bucks for 64GB or more. It's a dirt cheap commodity being heavily taxed by device makers in mobile products. If people knew how much that NAND cost then they'd be a lot more pissed off about that $50-$100 or more that they're charging for just a measly 16GB-32GB bump. Therefore, adding NAND or even a platter drive to their dock would have increased the storage space considerably.

The issue of the OS changing depending on the type of input is something they could have, and should have done from the beginning, particularly for a tablet that's also meant to serve as a laptop. Bundling it with Metro is just another reason for the BYOD business segment to ignore it altogether.

The 1080p display isn't a great idea either given the inherent difficulties with Windows scaling. Whereas Apple goes about this in a sensible fashion and doubling up the pixels, MS has stuck to the DPI scaling method of incremental bumps by percentages. This makes it impossible to control any sort of DPI scaling at the OS level, relying instead on the software and developers to "play nice" with all sorts of hardware configurations and resolutions. Not surprisingly, that hasn't happened. In fact, even their own IE browser can't manage to get it right, so how in the hell they expect software that's been around for ages to suddenly adapt to DPI scaling that even MS can't get right is beyond me. And that issue, DPI scaling, won't be fixed unless MS changes it at the OS level and goes about it sensibly like Apple. You can either double up the pixels or do nothing at all. If you want anything in between then tread carefully, but don't expect it to work.

The Helix, Yoga and Dell Duo make a lot more sense than either MS tablet/laptop thing. At least you're getting respectable performance and the option of using it as a (rather heavy) tablet while not compromising the ability of the laptop. Even they've got issues with DPI scaling, though. And that issue, DPI scaling, won't be fixed unless MS changes it at the OS level and goes about it sensibly.

 

[pelo]

A sub 2 lbs. 1/2" thick non-Atom x86 device with 10 hours and ~128 GB of storage for $700? Such a device is beyond current technology at that price point. But such a device might be possible in the next 18 to 24 months.

And yes, the Surface Pro is a single device that can take care of both home and office needs for plenty of people.

I believe I mentioned to you that MS rushed this instead of waiting for the hardware to arrive and make such a vision a possibility. They instead rushed it and now you've got a tablet being sold at $600 with a <$15 Tegra 3 SoC, along with with a $900 tablet/laptop thing that's got a 17W ULV only capable of 4 hours of usage.

A 13W Ivy Bridge or 8W Haswell would have been a much better choice for the Pro. Hell, even a Temash/Kabini chip. On the RT side they should have priced it competitively instead of sticking their fingers in their ears.