Online Retailer Charges A 6.8% Internet Explorer 7 Tax

Shotglass01 said:
Yep, I agree with this. Although, computers have been generally available at least 20 years now so to some respects it needs to be like any other tool. They got off horse draw carriages for cars. Off of fire for gas and electric ovens, etc, etc.

They don't need to be experts, but they should figure they'll need to upgrade like everything else.

I don't think I'd charge a "tax" or surcharge, but I might make the page unavailable or redirect to a page with links to updated browsers.
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But that's how far computers have come in fifteen years

A fifteen year old computer is like a horse drawn carriage, a ten year old computer is like a car build in 1920's, expecting them to do the same job as whats required about tech today is fucking hilarious.

Its like when refrigerators were invented, and ice block producers wanted the government to charge a "Refrigerator tax" cause "It was killing our business" and the government said no, because its how technology fucking advances. If you can't keep up, you are dead to the industry.

Expecting a 15 year old laptop to access youtube is fucking insane, hands down.
 
Ur_Mom said:
No edit: some people think that their computer runs Windows Explorer 7 or their browser is Windows XP. They don't know the difference. If it works, good. That's all the PC is for. Once it stops working, they upgrade.
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Except 100% of my customers, once it stops working, for good cause their computers are outdated, none of them, not a single one of them has upgraded to a new one.

I've been out to the same customer 10 times in the last three years who has a laptop with 256mb of ram. Each and every time, I tell him to upgrade. Each and every time, he says "Ok, I'll do it soon"

But nope, still two years later, no new laptop or PC, and I'm still out there three times a year to "Fix" his laptop, when all I can do is lower memory access, what programs are doing what, unload the crap he's always installed, clean system files etc. He still won't buy a new one, even when it takes -FIVE MINUTES- too load -GOOGLE-

Customers are just flat out fucking cheap. Its going to get to the point where I am going to have to start refusing to service PC's older then 7-8 years old unless I am paid premium flat up front, cause I've about fucking had it dealing with all these cheap fuckers.
 
wonderfield said:
I would absolutely consider something like that, but realistically, it makes much more sense to not spend effort on giving IE7 users as good an experience as everyone else gets. The people using modern browsers will get a better experience, so they're already at an advantage to IE7 users.
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The point when over your head... he meant so it sounded like a positive thing instead of a negative: basic marketing 101.
 
Shotglass01 said:
Yep, I agree with this. Although, computers have been generally available at least 20 years now so to some respects it needs to be like any other tool. They got off horse draw carriages for cars. Off of fire for gas and electric ovens, etc, etc.

They don't need to be experts, but they should figure they'll need to upgrade like everything else.

I don't think I'd charge a "tax" or surcharge, but I might make the page unavailable or redirect to a page with links to updated browsers.
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Honestly I don't blame people for NOT upgrading shit. Yes, it's frustrating, but upgrading is a fucking minefield. My Dad doesn't upgrade anything anymore unless I'm there to do it for him because 95% of the time he has a problem with his computer it's because he upgraded and broke some sort of compatibility or introduced some bug from an under tested new version.

It baffles me when "experts in the field" of any variety complain about morons in their field, as that's the majority of why their job exists in the first place.

If you got into IT support and you can't deal with people being uneducated morons, that's your problem. Support of any variety by it's very nature you're mostly dealing with people who don't know enough about it to help themselves, otherwise you wouldn't have a job.

You do obviously have SOME workers who know their shit. Personally whenever I have to call IT support at work it's either because I need to do something I already know how to do and what to do, I just have to go through "proper channels" to do it, OR something legitimately isn't working and I know the standard run about IT guy wont have any clue how to fix it either and I am simply contacting them as a means to an end where I know they'll have to contact someone else to fix it.

But 90% of IT problems are because people, surprise surprise, don't know what to do because they're morons when it comes to IT, so it's IT support's job to sort it out so they can in turn get on with their job.
 
The people running that site are awesome! I would totally do the same thing.

I wonder what percentage of these IE7 users just go ahead and pay the tax. :p
 
ShamisOMally said:
I work on a different pay structure. I bill depending on "Work done" vs. "Time worked"

Babysitting a laptop all day pushing prompts while I play games on my cell phone is not really "work" so I charge very little. Manually cleaning/installing files for 8-10 hours is though indeed work.

Thing is, 100% of my business I get is cause I charge less for repairs then 99% of the tech services out there. While they charge $60 a hour, I charge between $15-30 bucks a hour

Except all my customers firmly believe they are in the "$15 a hour" bracket because they don't have a fucking clue how computer repairs work. Which always ends up in me getting in an endless bitching match with them. If it was just me sitting down and pushing the mouse every 10-30 minutes, I frankly don't care. But almost no fucking PC falls into that bracket these days. Ten years ago, yes, cleaning and maintenance was damn fucking simple, today though its far, far, far more intense and requires you having to manually work through systems inside and out.

And again, all my customers think they are in the $15 a hour" bracket, when more and more of them aren't because their systems are so god damn fucking old, or they never have run any fucking updates in years, which results in shitloads of hours working hard manually cleaning system files, closing exploits etc.

And the customers that complain about not getting into the $15 a hour bracket? Well, if they bitch and moan for 20 minutes, I simply charge them the $15 but I do it on the stipulation I will not service their computers -EVER AGAIN- unless I am paid optimal services. And all of them, ALL OF THEM think they are "Getting a deal" and take it. Guess what, not a single, fucking, one of them has -NOT- had to call me in 5-6 months to deal with new problems, in which I go into my business book, look up their name/address etc, have the signed work order I did in which they refused to pay appropriately for my services, and I very, very politely tell them what they did last time, and what my optimal rates are. And every single last one of these mother fuckers forgets about it, and says I am trying to "Scam them" when I have it -IN FUCKING WRITING- with their fucking signature.

So no, I get reallllllll upset with customers these days. I won't do it to their face, I won't hell or flip them off or whatever, but all of them don't have a mother fucking clue about PC hardware, and all of them, -ALL OF THEM- are the cheapest mother fuckers on the planet, when -NEARLY- all of them I have gone into their homes to work on their PC's/Laptops and they all have -MODERN- stuff like TV's, Stereo's, expensive furniture etc.

Customers when it comes to computers are just the cheapest mother fuckers on the planet, bar fucking none. A car if something breaks, they are -FORCED- to fix it, or -FORCED- to buy a new car or the car just won't fucking run, these same customers will drag fifteen fucking year old laptops kicking and screaming too the ends of the earth, calling me up fucking daily about how "This website is loading slow!" when their fucking browser alone eats up 100% of their ram and want me to "Fix it", and I come down, and I look at the system, and I tell them "Even if I clean it, it will not run faster, you need a new laptop" and I get the "FUCKING SCAM!" speech out of every single one of these god damn IQ drained fucking morons that they need to buy "A new PC/Laptop"

So, excuse fucking me if I have a general hatred for customers these days, just because they put bread on my fucking table does not mean I have to respect these assclowns and their rampant stupidity.
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My prices are also low and flat rate i have learned to not let the long boring part of the job get to me and long boring repairs are always done in shop i will not do that stuff onsite at all.
 
ShamisOMally said:
Expecting a 15 year old laptop to access youtube is fucking insane, hands down.
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Yes, trust me I agree with you.

Tudz said:
Honestly I don't blame people for NOT upgrading shit.
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You are actually doing a dis-service to those people. They can walk out, spend literally $400 bucks or less and have a computer that blows the shit out of what they have. Hell, it's worth the upgrade just to save the hours, perhaps weeks, of their lives in time not waiting on crap to load and work.
 
Shotglass01 said:
You are actually doing a dis-service to those people. They can walk out, spend literally $400 bucks or less and have a computer that blows the shit out of what they have. Hell, it's worth the upgrade just to save the hours, perhaps weeks, of their lives in time not waiting on crap to load and work.
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I don't work in IT, I'm just talking about my family who I help set up their crap. My Dad works from his PC and we finally upgraded it a couple of months ago because his old PC was on it's last legs and he got barely any work done over the course of a month because it took so fucking long to set up the new PC with all his software and then the SSD died so we had to get it replaced and start again (I had imaged it a couple of times during set up, but it still took a long time to get it all back up to working order).

And that's just talking about hardware upgrades, I was actually talking more about software upgrades (since this is a thread about IE7). When it comes to software upgrades, a huge number of problems among the family and friends who I help with their PCs come down to "I tried to upgrade X and it broke Y". Which is why I said upgrading is a minefield.

Especially my Dad who works on his computer and has a dozen programs he needs, many of which need to communicate with each other and rely on version specific links to do so.

In many ways, from a "support" perspective, I'm happier if the problem is simply they haven't upgraded X software and few easy upgrades fixes it, compared to when they upgrade to a buggy version or a new version which no longer has the features they need, as downgrading to an old version is usually more of a problem.
 
ShamisOMally said:
Except 100% of my customers, once it stops working, for good cause their computers are outdated, none of them, not a single one of them has upgraded to a new one.

I've been out to the same customer 10 times in the last three years who has a laptop with 256mb of ram. Each and every time, I tell him to upgrade. Each and every time, he says "Ok, I'll do it soon"

But nope, still two years later, no new laptop or PC, and I'm still out there three times a year to "Fix" his laptop, when all I can do is lower memory access, what programs are doing what, unload the crap he's always installed, clean system files etc. He still won't buy a new one, even when it takes -FIVE MINUTES- too load -GOOGLE-

Customers are just flat out fucking cheap. Its going to get to the point where I am going to have to start refusing to service PC's older then 7-8 years old unless I am paid premium flat up front, cause I've about fucking had it dealing with all these cheap fuckers.
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Funny thing is, they're costing themselves more over time by not upgrading, in the deluded thought that they are saving money.
 
I like it. I work for a software company and would love to see IE7 and Windows XP die.
 
I don't see anything wrong with it. It's totally disclosed in a really obvious way. They aren't hiding anything or changing prices based on what browser you use in some sneaky way. I could see amazon fudging the prices on things based on what browser you use and never telling people.
 
I love it, gotta get people to move up. Managing a site just to cater to IE7 costs money :)
 
jinjuku said:
BTW you shouldn't develop to ANY browser. You should develop to standards. That's the entire point.

It's like you have to write signs in Texas English, or New England English, or Cleveland English. No you should develop to ENGLISH and let everything comply with that standard.
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We have a winner! I suck at analogies thanks for this one.
 
I decided a few weeks back that ie7 users do not deserve rounded corners, just too much hassle. This is a great idea!
 
As someone that works in web development... Yes Yes Yes :D

IE7 development is just a pain in the ass. Most of the time clients just settle for functional at best for IE7 inclusion, if it looks graphically weird occasionally, that's ok.
 
PensFault said:
ALL browsers are vulnerable, what's your point? If you have a retarded iteration policy that indicates any moderate change made requires a new version number, then you realize how the numbers are so high and irrelevant... Way to be brainwashed my marketing bro.
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My Point is its better to have a Slightly flawed defense then to have no defense (you have multiple layers of defenses and the browser is just the beginning, and you should lead by putting the best foot forward). and its not just the security vulnerabilities, it is supposedly Much harder to get web pages to display correctly in IE7 vs 6 or 8 and beyond, as I have been told by my wife. IE7 is just a bad product and should not be installed.
 
ShamisOMally said:
Except 100% of my customers, once it stops working, for good cause their computers are outdated, none of them, not a single one of them has upgraded to a new one.

I've been out to the same customer 10 times in the last three years who has a laptop with 256mb of ram. Each and every time, I tell him to upgrade. Each and every time, he says "Ok, I'll do it soon"

But nope, still two years later, no new laptop or PC, and I'm still out there three times a year to "Fix" his laptop, when all I can do is lower memory access, what programs are doing what, unload the crap he's always installed, clean system files etc. He still won't buy a new one, even when it takes -FIVE MINUTES- too load -GOOGLE-

Customers are just flat out fucking cheap. Its going to get to the point where I am going to have to start refusing to service PC's older then 7-8 years old unless I am paid premium flat up front, cause I've about fucking had it dealing with all these cheap fuckers.
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Last PC repair place I worked for had a policy of telling the customer it wasn't worth their money to work on a computer if it was more than 5 years old. Sure we lost a little bit of business, but it was worth it not having to deal with super old crap.

There were a few customers who insisted on getting their really old computers worked on... Hey it is their money they are wasting spending $80 an hour for on-site service.
 
Those of you working at places that are still using any IE below 9 need to get with the program.

I started a new job the beginning of last year. Most computers were running IE7 and a few IE8.

Now all but maybe 1 is running IE9.

Also got rid of all Pre Core-2 Duo stuff as well except for a couple lab laptops. Having old as dirt systems just wastes time and money. The increased productivity from newer systems more than pays for itself within a few months.

Oh yeah.. almost every computer has a 23" screen as well... stupid stupid stupid to be running small screens these days.

The office I work at has around 60 computers. It is sooooo much quicker to service them when something comes up. No more having to take a computer for 3-4 hours to fix it unless it is a complete wipe and reinstall from scratch.

Once your company finally upgrades their systems to nice shiney new systems with SSDs, they will wish they had upgraded much sooner.
 
mak10z said:
it is supposedly Much harder to get web pages to display correctly in IE7 vs 6 or 8 and beyond, as I have been told by my wife. IE7 is just a bad product and should not be installed.
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I have to clarify my wife tells me all IE past 7 jacks with CSS and what not (dont ask me I dont do any web coding, atleast not in a couple years.) ... stupid no Edit button
 
People are going to laugh at me but I will ask anyway? Where does all the IE hate come from. I use IE9, I have all my favorites lined up at the top, tabbed browsing is awesome, pages load almost instantly. Why should I not like IE?
 
I still use Windows 98 SE and 2000 with old web browsers just because it makes web developers mad to see hits from IE6. :p
 
Bootleg Usher said:
People are going to laugh at me but I will ask anyway? Where does all the IE hate come from. I use IE9, I have all my favorites lined up at the top, tabbed browsing is awesome, pages load almost instantly. Why should I not like IE?
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You're supposed to hate IE because it's the popular thing for nerds. You're also supposed to go on a screaming rampage when you see friends or family using it and convince them to install Chrome instead so Google can spy on them.
 
I'm a software developer (sometimes web) and while I find older versions of Internet Explorer very annoying, I can't see charging customers for it. That's a big red flag that basically says "Shop somewhere else because we're idiots and don't want your money."
 
SkribbelKat said:
You're supposed to hate IE because it's the popular thing for nerds. You're also supposed to go on a screaming rampage when you see friends or family using it and convince them to install Chrome instead so Google can spy on them.
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Ah, gotta love the anti-bandwagon bandwagoners.
 
ballistic90 said:
My company still has us using IE7 because we interact with a large number of websites from third parties, some of which drag their feet when it comes to updating to the newest IE standards.
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This.

I have to keep IE6 on some systems for a long time due to some 3rd party web sites.

Now that I've upgraded most the the users to Widows 7, I've had to force some of the systems to stay with IE8, due to problems with IE9.
 
cyclone3d said:
Those of you working at places that are still using any IE below 9 need to get with the program.

I started a new job the beginning of last year. Most computers were running IE7 and a few IE8.

Now all but maybe 1 is running IE9.
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That's great as long as everything works with IE9.
For example, there's still a banking web site used by some users in my office that is unusable in IE9. Some of the screens are unreadable. Only IE8 works.
Last year there where several sites that where not working correctly with IE9, so we had to freeze a number of systemes at IE8. Untill the vendors "officially" support IE9, I won't bother testing it.
 
Bootleg Usher said:
People are going to laugh at me but I will ask anyway? Where does all the IE hate come from. I use IE9, I have all my favorites lined up at the top, tabbed browsing is awesome, pages load almost instantly. Why should I not like IE?
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I agree completely.
 
dexvx said:
Are you saying ancient builds of FireFox fully comply with web standards? Last I heard, FireFox 3.0 (and IE8) was required to pass Acid2 and FireFox 4.0 (and IE9) was required to pass Acid3.

So I stand by my reasoning that there are many idiots using ancient builds of FireFox who still think it's faster, more standards compliant, and more secure than the latest version of IE.
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Your reasoning is pointless when the issue is about rendering in IE7 vs other browsers. I've been working with strict XHTML/CSS layouts for the last 5-6 years and am very much aware of the extra effort required to get sites to render accurately in IE6/IE7. In each job i've done, inevitably you require to use separate CSS tweaks for these browsers which does not justify the time money spent.

In fact i now make to clear to clients that if they are looking for IE6/IE7 compliance, they have to pay extra!
 
So we should upgrade to IE9, which MS is forcing us to do yet even their own products don't "support" it. Try browsing the the Lync administration page, it complains that it's an unsupported browser.

Hell MS are doing this a lot lately, try installing SCCM 2012 on an SQL 2012 server.

Kogan should just grow some balls and either stop supporting the browser or STFU and take the hit. They aren't some white knight trying to save the net, they're just doing some BS marketing.
 
When I started at my current job about two years ago, I was shocked to find that they still had IE6 on all their machines.

I had to be really pushy to get them to upgrade IE on my laptop, and when they did, what did I get? IE7... :rolleyes:

(in most corporate settings you don't have admin privileges to your local machine, so any changes at all have to go through IT)

Then I discovered portableapps.com and have been using Chrome ever since, and not looking back.

Finally in the last 6 months or so, they have been issuing new computers with Win7 and IE8 instead of XP, but most people with existing computers are still on XP and have IE6... :rolleyes:

...and this is a global medical device company with ~15,000 employees worldwide.

So, while I agree with persuading people to upgrade using methods like these, I think a lot of people are trapped with whatever has been chosen for them, not what they have chosen for themselves.
 
potency said:
Ah, gotta love the anti-bandwagon bandwagoners.
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Bandwagons are fun to ride because they're filled with happy crazies. Actually, I just use IE because I just don't really care to be bothered with another browser install. Being able to make fun of Google is like getting free bonus points for laziness. I wouldn't take me too seriously. :p
 
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