LCD Televisions with 4:4:4 Subsampling and low Input Lag.

Wow, the lowest price i've seen yet on the VR-3730. Note that there's an extremely good chance that it's a close-out liquidation price, and it may be a last chance to purchase.

Those in the market for a proven 37" could pick one up with little risk @ Best Buy. Good blacks+contrast, working 4:4:4, 1080P over VGA and HDMI etc etc all for $280 ? A no-brainer imho. There's a couple of mini-reviews elsewhere in the thread too btw.

If it wasn't for my interest in a different display i would have purchased it already, heck i'm considering it now even.
 
I hate all of you . . .

I caved and picked up the VR-3730 tonight as the sale price was stupid cheap. I haven't turned it on yet but, LOLHUGESET is HUGE. The online panel size comparison software underestimates the 5" difference between a 32" and a 37" set. My eyes are going to fall out of my head once I am able to play a game on it from trying to see the entire screen.

Out of the TVs I have tried so far though, the base on this one is by far the most impressive and sturdy despite the fact metal is only in the base. It also has a swivel which I will almost certainly never use but hooray for having that built in.

*edit* I lied, I just used the swivel to try and peek in the vents and then used it to hook the cables back up.

There is a ton of "shielding" so I can't see any part numbers in the vents. I'll share the firmware revision once I turn it on. Speaking of which . . .


For anyone wondering why I am posting prior to even turning it on, it's because I have a question about the initial settings. I was able to go back and change my mind on "home" or "retail" on the craptacular LD-2280 but I am concerned I will be stuck with what I pick on the VR-3730 based on its reviews.

For those of you that have been using the VR-xxxx sets, are yall picking "home" or "retail" when yall set them up?
 
I picked "home" with my VR-3225. Another VR-xxx owner had picked the home setting also, but later got cold feet and tried to reverse it. He couldn't reverse it so he swapped it out for a brand new one and picked "retail" and couldn't detect a difference, but he no longer had his orginal to do a side by side comparison. I wish i can remember where i read that particular review (walmart, amazon, newegg, bestbuy?)

Personally i suspect it's a minor backlight increase with the "retail" setting but i cannot confirm. But if it is true, then note that the TV is probably pretty bright already with the "home" setting, and a 37" can throw out a lot of light from 3-4ft away.

BUT, take everything i've said with a nugget of salt, and hopefully some of the other VR-3730 owners can chime in.

I hope this one turns out to be "the one" for you, can't wait for the follow-up impressions and info. Are you able to set it far back enough for your taste?
 
Yea that was my line of thinking as well hence why I have been selecting "home" on the TVs I have tried prior to this one. Even those were absurdly bright on the "home" setting and I would tend to think "home" would be better calibrated for actual use/easier to calibrate than "retail" given that stores are overly lit and have their displays trying to melt everything near them. Eventually they will realize they need to start trying to mimic an actual user environment on all the displays and do a rough calibration on them to make them stand out. A manufacturer should be happy to eat the cost of that as it will increase their sales since it will stand out as this is how your set "should" look. If the store offers calibration service or is partners with someone that offers it, it would be a win win for everyone. As the old adage goes, "you have to spend money to make money".

*edit* I do have one minor complaint already and that's the fact the screen looks like wet paint. Based on my experience with the iSymphony set which was also glossy, this shouldn't be an issue as I am not going to have light shining on the screen unless the ceiling lights are on and they will be off 99.9% of the time. Reading some reviews recently on various glossy displays has left me a little nervous though as they claim to be unable to see certain things as a result. They likely have lights reflecting onto the screen to cause reflections though.

I also don't like the fact that the power cord is permanently attached to the set but that really shouldn't be an issue.

*edit* I also forgot to point out how much I love the fact that every single input jack is on the side of this TV. Having the additional Component (Y/PB/PR) connection (2 instead of 1) and a S-video connection was also a nice "benefit".
 
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Interesting, i don't recall the store model looking overly glossy, and i was staring at it for a long time. And that was in a semi-bright store environment. Maybe it has a very light AG coating, semi glossy, or a panel lottery perhaps?

On the flipside, heavy AG coatings cause other visual anomolies. And those not being able to see certain details with their glossy panels almost assuredly have improper lighting in their rooms.
 
My 3730 (turned off obviously) with a light source in front of it has a mirror reflection on it just like the iSymphony I had did. The iSymphony looked like it had no coating on it though (IIRC) when I was cleaning it. The 3730 looks like it might (and I stress might) have a very thin coating on it but i don't think it does. The Dynex DX-L230A12 most certainly had a coating on it as you couldn't make out any details on the reflections it had with a light source in front of it. The coating on the DX-32L230A12 had a a "grain" texture (for the lack of a better word) that was both horizontal and if IIRC vertical. It didn't affect the I/PQ (image/picture quality) at all though as you can tell by my raving review. I probably should have pointed out what the coating looked like in my review but, I honestly have no idea what's "typical" for a coating and what isn't. Back in my day TVs were CRTs with a glossy glass screen and monitors were an extremely matte surface with horrible TN panels.

*edit* I don't see any sort of coating on the 3720. I guess I was noticing the pixels as I was cleaning the screen off. I also forgot to point out that there may be a panel lottery on this set as shopjimmy showed 2 to 3 mainboards for it where a CMO (S-PVA) panel was used and 1 or 2 mainboards where an AUO (AMVA) panel was used. I would be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for the AUO because I know that type of screen as incredible black levels based on the DX-32L230A12. At the same time though one of those screens was defective and there is a chance the second one was a uniformity issue rather than a backlight problem.
 
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I couldn't stand it any longer and I selected "home".

4:4:4 chroma:

It's running 4:4:4 over DVI>HDMI as I am still on a relative's PC that I tossed my 6200 into. It's also still using the EDID override on the video card not the monitor. I didn't see any point of trying it without the card EDID override based on my experience with the 6200 and the DX-32L230A12. I really need to get my motherboard shipped for it's RMA.


Pixel density:

Sitting from a normal monitor to face distance (roughly 2 ft) I can make out the pixels of white text on a black background so losing roughly 1200 pixels per sq. in. from moving to a 32" to a 37" is fairly obvious if you have acute vision. It sure makes it easy to see if it's running 4:4:4 though lol. Essentially I have somewhat of a "screen door" effect when looking at everything here on [H]ard|forum except for black text. 32" is definitely the sweet spot for me but we'll see how I feel in a week or three.


Backlight bleed:

I can't see any light bleed but, it's a 37" screen and it's hard as hell to sort out viewing cone/angle gamma shift from screen imperfections. Given that all of the "brighter" areas darken, I'm going to so it doesn't have any backlight bleed.


Uniformity:

I don't have any equipment to test this out with but, if you go to the most extreme of viewing angles, with a black pattern, you can see small spots/areas usually no larger than a finger tip or three sporadically placed about the screen. The pixels are not smudged in these areas and it's not fingerprints. Well at least it's not fingerprints on the part of the screen you can touch. No one is ever going to view the TV from such absurd angles though and if they were going to do so, dropping the brightness level is bound to resolve this issue as you would have to drop it to compensate for the gamma shift.

I don't see any issues with any pixels on backgrounds of white, red, green, blue, and black so they should all be fine. I also don't have any issues like I had on my last DX-32L230A12.


Colour levels:

These are actually really nice but my set was far, far to oversaturated. I had to strip pout a considerable amount of colour but, I was prepared for that.


Black levels:

I am disappointed in these. They aren't "bad" but, they are after you've seen an AUO AMVA panel in person. As far as I'm concerned that is the best all around MVA derivative panel. The black levels are "acceptable" but they are no where near as nice as the DX-32L230A12 was. The VR-3720 also has a lot more black crush than the DX-32L230A12 did which is a lot more obvious as well since the black levels aren't as dark.


Backlight level:

Until we find a service menu for the Westinghouse sets, there is no way to adjust it. There is a chance this could help correct some of my complaints with the black levels and black crush as it was adjustable on the DX-32L230A12.


Firmware:

ATSC_TI11213_V370H3_L02_318H_D_30_31.2.11_1.0

CMO V370H3-L02


Initial thoughts:

I have mixed feelings on this but, to be fair i think a lot of it is from going from a 32" to a 37" and the "pitfalls" that come as a result of that. I also can not stress enough how much that Dynex DX-32L230A12 spoiled me. I sincerely hope that model gets a CCFL model refresh at some point in the future and that it is as nice. It was beyond a diamond in the rough given the black levels and the range of adjustments.

Had I never seen that set though, or a 32" LCD I likely wouldn't have most of the initial complaints that I do. Make no mistake, the VR-3730 was a "stellar" purchase for $279.99 it's just that the DX-32L230A12 was an "outrageous" purchase for $219.99 and it has without a doubt "tainted" my opinion of any other set. It set an incredibly high standard as the gamma, black levels, colours, contrast were incredibly easy to eyeball with just the TV menu.


All that having been said, we'll see how my eyes adjust to the VR-3730 over the next few weeks as I have only been able to see it in the full darkness of night (excluding the light it emits). It's possible that the ballast lighting the sun provides through the curtains behind the TV during the day might help "correct" a few of the things I have been complaining about.

If this review has made you doubt on the VR-3730, keep in mind that these are my initial opinions compared to the DX-32L230A12 which I absolutely loved and that set would easily go toe to toe with sets above it's price tier (within reason). One also has to take into account that I am comparing a 37" set to a 32" inch one. Yes, I have mentioned all of this several times during this review but there is a reason why. I want to make sure it's taken into account when you are reading this.
 
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BTW, the DOTD (Deal of the day) sale is now over but, they did not sell out of the VR-3730 online. The price is back to $359.99 and listed as being on sale. I'm pretty sure that's it's new price point though as it has been at that price forever now.

They only had 2 on the shelf at the location I got mine at but, it's been like that for the past month and I have no idea if these were the same two that have been there. The point I am trying to make is, if you missed out keep your eyes open as there is bound to be another markdown at some point as these are going to have to be clearanced out to make room for Westinghouse's 2012 37" 1080p CCFL sets. I don't know if you will see a lower price than $279.99 but, anything is possible. Since I mentioned their 2012 product line keep in mind that they will not be making a 32" 1080p CCFL set. They will only have a 32" 720p CCFL set according to CES 2012.
 
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I just wanted to do a very minor update about my thoughts on the VR-3730. I think my eyes have started to "adjust" and I've accepted the fact it's not an AUO AMVA panel. There are times when the darkest black level on the screen "appears" to be pitch black but, comparing that part of the screen to the bezel or a speaker reveals that it isn't. To be fair, there is a chance that the AMVA panel in the DX-32L230A12 was exaggerating black levels on things it shouldn't really have been doing so on. There is also the fact that it was a smaller screen and had different hardware so it's really hard to ascertain what the exact differences in panel technology were. That being said, the gamma shift from a viewing angle change happens sooner and is more pronounced on the S-PVA panel so there is very little marketing hype if any from AUO about what it's AMVA screens are capable of versus the traditional MVA panels.

I do however have a new complaint about the Vr-3730 and it concerns the menu. After turning the TV off last night and back on today, I had to reset the "Noise Reduction" back to "off". There is only one aspect ratio setting for DVI to HDMI so that wasn't a problem and the Component (Y/PB/PR) was still set to "fill". I had read complaints about settings not sticking in the menus of Westinghouse sets so, this really isn't to surprising but it is irritating as I turn sets off when it's not in use. This is a prime example of why the Service Menu is needed.

Speaking of the menu, I didn't set the TV up for any sort of antennae/cable/satellite signal nor did I enter in the unlock code for the tuner. As such, I am able to go through the initial set-up procedure again if I change the source to TV. I will probably try "retail" just because I can but, I doubt it's going to improve anything or add new menu features. I'll report back on that later.

*edit* The menu does bring up another complaint as well. None of the settings like contrast/brightness/coulor/sharpness/etc. have numbers. You just have a slider and that makes it hell for anyone to compare settings and to change their settings back to how they had them if they make a change. This is a major flaw/oversight.
 
Don't waste your time on trying out the "retail" mode especially since you may get locked to it. I went back to "home" mode as the black levels were substantially better. The "retail" mode has a much higher contrast to brightness ratio which sold have had better blacks. It didn't though and it actually increased the black crush despite everything I tired. To be fair, "DLC" set to on fixed a lot of the crush but, it's far to aggressive especially in well lit scenes. There are times when "DLC" makes skin tones (especially darker ones) look gorgeous and then there are times when it just completely destroys them along with colours making the scene look like bad CGI composition even when it was a 100% live action shot. There is just something that is overall wrong with the "retail" setting which isn't surprising as it's meant to melt lead and be used in an overly bright retail environment.

My opinion on "retail" mode might be different if I had access to a service menu but, if I had access to a service menu "retail" mode's increased contrast to brightness ratio likely wouldn't matter anyway as "home" mode is already better at black levels.

My advice would be to stick with the "home" mode as far as the VR-3730 is concerned.

*edit* I should point out the default colour temp for "retail" mode was "cool" and it seemed to have a bit of a blue push on white levels even after setting it to "neutral". It might have been my eyes playing tricks on me but, I felt that was worth noting.
 
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Just another update. I got to thinking and decided it wasn't really fair to compare the VR-3730 which I had sitting on the the entertainment center with the DX-32L230A12 which I had sitting on my center channel speaker box (it's a "large" box as it's from 2006ish). In order ot do this, I had to cut a piece of wood as my center speaker box didn't have the proper depth to allow all six of the VR-3730s feet to rest on it. Obviously the VR-3730 is taller but, IIRC the bottom of the screen doesn't sit much higher than the DX-32L230A12 did. It's hard to tell as the stands are different and so are the bezels.

Long story short, this appears to have corrected some of the complaints I had about black levels as it's now incredibly hard to tell the difference between the bezel and the black background here at [H]ard|Forum when I am sitting 5' to 6' away from the screen. This also cuts down on the viewing cone shift by a very noticeable amount as all four corners damn near match the bezel. I want to point out that the DX-32L230A12 was able to do this even sitting directly on the entertainment center but, there is just something "magical" about the viewing angle created from raising the set up to where your eye level is near the bottom of the screen instead of dead center.

However, this does have a drawback of a gamma shift on the top third of the screen if you are sitting around 2' or closer to the screen. You can compensate for this by raising your eye level to the middle of the screen but then you will get the typical viewing cone gamma shift. I don't consider this a flaw though as it's just the nature of LCD screens and they are all going to do it unless it's an IPS panel. IPS panels have their own set of drawbacks though. I just wanted to point this out so that no one reading makes the assumption that a raised viewing angle eliminates the gamma shift of a change in viewing angle regardless of where you sit. You need to be at least 5' to 6' away to have that happen. Also for the sake of clarity, my center speaker box is roughly 6 3'16" tall and the wood sitting on top of it is roughly 9/16" tall. The combined height is roughly 6 3/4". I would guess that my eye level from 5' to 6' away is towards the middle of the bottom 1/3 of the screen. It's probably overkill to relay all of those details but, I want to be as concise as possible.


I was probably going to keep this set even if I couldn't correct my complaints. Given that my list is starting to whittle down, it's even more likely I will keep it. I wouldn't call this "the one" though. That title belongs to the DX-32L230A12 even if I never managed to get one that wasn't defective. The VR-3730 is starting to become a very close "runner-up" though and I'm glad I didn't pass on it's recent sale price ($279.99).

I will try to get some pictures taken in the next couple of days after I figure out a way to mimic the camera placement relative to the screen position and the outside lighting is similar to when I took pictures of the DX-32L230A12 so that the comparison will be as "fair" as possible. In hindsight, I should have recorded the time stamp on the DVD player but it shouldn't be to tricky to get the DVD paused in an incredibly similar spot.

Speaking of DVD playback, on SD (480) DVDs I need to sit even further back in order to keep the image from being blurry. Given the decrease in pixel density though, this really shouldn't surprise anyone and it certainly didn't surprise me. It's not an issue sitting close (around 2') to the screen though when it comes to PC usage. It's a ton of screen to try and take in at that range though. I haven;t tried to play WoW yet as i need to wait for my motherboard to get back from its RMA but I've no idea how Lgg's wife plays it sitting as close as she does in that picture Lgg took. I would need to be a Hydra to play at that range lol. I still think 32" is the sweet spot but, it should be interesting to see games at 37". The thought of a Battleground in WoW has me cringing though . . .
 
I got bored and ran the "PixPerAn" program. I wish I had done this on the DX-32L230A12 as well but oh well. Anyway, I was terribad at the scrolling game so I would consider it's results subjective at best. I also had no idea how to make the "Streaky Picture" look like what I was seeing so I don't have an image of that. The camera also couldn't catch it as ever picture I snapped was a single car and totally in focus. There were no streaks and there was only one "ghost" image on the car. It was fairly close to the actual car. If you were to look at the dot in the middle of the wheel on the car, I could see two of those and the distance between them would have been one dot at best. That is also highly subjective though as is the entire set of tests with no equipment. Here are the results I felt were honest and erring on the side of caution:

Graphics mode: 1920x1080 @ 32 bpp
Frame rate: 60.0 Hz
Gamma factor: 2.0083

Flag test: b->w: 91.8%, w->b: 98.7%, b->g: 94.9%, w->g: 91.4%
Chase test: 10(16.7ms), 9(15.0ms), 14(23.3ms)
Readability: Tempo 8 (the text was not readable past this point. Certain letters were though)
Game: Score: 50 Points, hit rate: 26%
streaky graphic: -
 
I was out in the garage today working on a new "plate cover" and a "stability box" for my VR-3730 (I'll do pictures when I'm done) and noticed something interesting when I went back in my room to measure something. The VR-3730 powered itself off like a monitor does via the power settings in Windows XP Home on the 6200 card. That was a nifty little surprise. At one point though during one of those power off cycles, the text was horrible when it woke back up. I had to switch to another input and then back to resolve it. I'm hoping the text issue was a fluke otherwise the power off command from Windows is going to be pointless. I'm also hoping this feature will exist in W7 Pro 64 with my 9500GT once I get my motherboard back from RMA.
 
I was out in the garage today working on a new "plate cover" and a "stability box" for my VR-3730 (I'll do pictures when I'm done) and noticed something interesting when I went back in my room to measure something. The VR-3730 powered itself off like a monitor does via the power settings in Windows XP Home on the 6200 card. That was a nifty little surprise. At one point though during one of those power off cycles, the text was horrible when it woke back up. I had to switch to another input and then back to resolve it. I'm hoping the text issue was a fluke otherwise the power off command from Windows is going to be pointless. I'm also hoping this feature will exist in W7 Pro 64 with my 9500GT once I get my motherboard back from RMA.
4:4:4 breaking like that can happen under certain circumstances, it can sometimes even be recreated but other times there is no rhyme nor reason to it.

Any time it has happened to me i would power cycle the TV and it always corrected itself, never tried switching inputs though.

It happens more with dual monitor configs, especially if the displays are different.
 
4:4:4 breaking like that can happen under certain circumstances, it can sometimes even be recreated but other times there is no rhyme nor reason to it.

Any time it has happened to me i would power cycle the TV and it always corrected itself, never tried switching inputs though.

It happens more with dual monitor configs, especially if the displays are different.

Thanks for the information. The only reason I even tried switching inputs was because, I had gotten accustomed to switching inputs on my Orion/Toshiba 34HF85 when the picture would jitter/flicker via a DVI>HDMI signal from the PC. That wasn't something that would randomly happen though as it sometimes occurred when you would turn it on or switch inputs and switching inputs was less "wear n' tear" than turning it off and on till it stopped. They really meant "not to be used with a PC" in the user manual lol.


The VR-3730 is turning out to be a fairly good replacement just for the fact I never, ever have to mess with geometry on a TV again. It's also slightly larger (36.5" viewable vs 24" viewable) but that does have some drawbacks as well. Overall the I/PQ was an upgrade but obviously the 34HF85 is better at SD (480) DVDs since it's a 1080i set and you can change the inputs to be a 540p signal instead of a 1080i. I fully expect an older set to work better with older source material though especially given that 1080p wasn't even around when I bought the 34HF85.


Here are pics of the base plate cover I made (I was lazy and didn't tape at the cuts or make finish panels for the sides). Excessive flash was excessive but I was only interested in showing the details and not actual lighting representation. The front edge of the entertainment center/TV stand is not curved and obviously neither is the TV nor the keyboard (G11 in case anyone is wondering if it was a G15 v1 and yes the mouse is a Logitech el chepo M205 and far to little). The curving is a result of perspective/viewing angle. The front of the base plate cover for the TV is curved though and yes, it does arc up in the middle from all directions. This is because the base plate is actually shaped like a pyramid with the top lopped off. This arc was not cut into the wood though as that would have been an incredible PITA. I opted to recess/hollow out a 13.75" wide, 9.25" deep, and somewhere around 7/16" (give or take) high section out of the wood. This resulted in the wood being "flexible" enough to "give" so that the bottom edges would sit flush to the surface and so that center would arc up as needed. This cover really doesn't have any weight on it so I'm not concerned with it breaking as the only "stress point" is where it is sandwiched between the TV's column and the metal base plate and, the most stress is probably coming from the arcing rather than the TV itself. This base plate cover is considerably smaller than the plastic one that ships with the VR-3730 and that was the main purpose in making it as I had very specific space restrictions from how I wanted to arrange things.

For those of you wondering what the horizontal line/split is, it's the meeting point of the base plate cover I made and a support shelf I made (The TV's base plate is deeper than the center speaker box). The support shelf doesn't have any recessing to it. I will probably go back later on and permanently join those together, fill in the" separation, and cut an access spot for the screws that mount the base plate to the TV's column as well as making side finishing panels and cleaning it up. At this point I was more interested in getting it "working" and testing it's "longevity" rather than making it look like a retail product. I'm also aware that the left/right speaker boxes are a tad bit taller but, I wasn't trying to mimic their height when i made the base plate cover and support shelf. I didn't even realize they were going to be close in height until I pushed them against the center speaker box on a whim. I will probably make a thin filler ring to place between the base cover I made and the support shelf before I permanently join them to one another to correct the height difference and remove some of the "stress" from the arcing. I may not though as it would be wasteful to plane something down to roughly 1/16" but, I may go hunt for something that thin whenever I decide to go back and add the finishing touches. I could probably get away with using a piece of acrylic as it won't be weight bearing.

And yes, I should totally put the TV/speakers/entertainment center/TV stand in between those two windows for incredible symmetry but then it wouldn't be lined up the the seating/bed/futon and sadly there is no way to shift the seating/bed/futon to the left because of the door. This is why all housing and rooms should be modular in design. I may eventually cave and move it though as I am a sucker for symmetry. I will probably just cheat though and get a wider curtain instead of using separate ones or make a "drop screen" after I get around to playing with some ballast/bias lighting. Also ignore the wiring off the left. I am still toying around with placement and haven't gotten the power strip where I want it or looked at a way to "hide" the A/V cables going into the TV.

BTW, fell free to play guess the phone.








I also took a picture of the set from a viewing distance of about 6' and at eye level. The exposure/lighting on this shot is a little off. It's not as "dim" as the picture appears but, it's impossible to see the separation between the speaker boxes and it's impossible to tell the difference in the finish and black levels of the speaker boxes, bezel, and the black background on [H]ard|Forum under these current lighting conditions. I still haven't had a chance to take still shots of the playback on "Casino Royal" (the 2006 remake) but, I will try to get that done this weekend.

 
I was trying to get the still shots of the movie playback today but the lighting just wasn't there. However in the process, I noticed something that really irritates me. The VR-3730 is overscanning the sides on the Component (Y/PB/PR) input and I don't see anyway to disable it. You can select "standard" and it will stop overscanning but, it will map the image to the center of the screen at a 4:3 ratio so that's not going to work. It's probably overscanning the top to some extent as well but the movie is in letterbox format so it's not an issue. This is a major con for me as you should always have a way of disabling overscan on a TV, and it's incredibly disappointing. I really don't know why 1:1 pixel mapping on all inputs is so "elusive" and this gives me little hope about a TV signal not overscanning.

That being said I could always just use the DVI>HDMI connection on the PC for video playback as I really prefer an all in one solution anyway. That however won't stop the VR-3730 from overscanning a signal from the PS2 or whatever else someone would hook up over the Component inputs. I will test the HDMI to HDMI input for overscan later tonight. Hopefully there won't be any on the HDMI inputs. Someone really needs to figure out how to get into the service menu on these "newer" Westinghouse sets in the near future.
 
I picked up the Westy 3730 tonight and have been trying to get a solid picture.
How does one enable 444 through the vid card? I only see YcBcr444 option in deasktop color settings through the Nvidia control panel, otherwise is sits on RGB.

So far the pixel smear is pretty apparent on this panel.
I've already sent back the Panasonic TC-L37U3 IPS panel, the blue crush and pixel smear was also very bad.

Racer could you post your picture settings for the Westy?
If I cant figure a way to get text to look better I think i'm going to give up on 2011 TV's period.

Edit: I'm using HDMI from the video card in my sig, to the panels HDMI 1.
 
I picked up the Westy 3730 tonight and have been trying to get a solid picture.
How does one enable 444 through the vid card? I only see YcBcr444 option in deasktop color settings through the Nvidia control panel, otherwise is sits on RGB.

So far the pixel smear is pretty apparent on this panel.
I've already sent back the Panasonic TC-L37U3 IPS panel, the blue crush and pixel smear was also very bad.

Racer could you post your picture settings for the Westy?
If I cant figure a way to get text to look better I think i'm going to give up on 2011 TV's period.

Edit: I'm using HDMI from the video card in my sig, to the panels HDMI 1.

I don't know if it's possible to run 4:4:4 on the 3730 with a HDMI>HDMI signal. I think only a very, very minute amount of TVs that can do 4:4:4 are able to do it via HDMI>HDMI.

Make sure you are using HDMI1 on the TV though for any type of PC signal.

The easiest way to do 4:4:4 is to use a DVI>HDMI signal. If you don't have a cable lying around, you can try to do the EDID Override since you are using a Nvidia card. In order to do this, you'll need to change your monitor driver and then make a change in your registry. I recommend trying the DVI>HDMI cable first but if you can't/won't here is what you need to do to enable 4:4:4 (on a TV that is actually capable of it):

Click me

If that doesn't work, I have an EDID override procedure I will post that I had to use on this 6200 card I'm messing around with right now. The alternate procedure does and EDID override on the video card itself rather than the monitor but let's just go one step at a time instead of trying everything at once.

As far as the TV menu settings go, they won't fix the text or 4:4:4 but my current settings are as follows:

*updated*

These changes were made by "eye-balling" it and without any equipment. The room is also completely dark barring the light from the TV, router lights, HTIAB (home theater in a box) receiver, etc. so, it should be interesting to see how this looks during the day. The adjustments were made using the Lagom test page and the Vanity.dk test page. The focus was placed on correcting the gamma and still being able to see the lowest black level (1 on Lagom & 1% on Vanity.dk). You can see the difference between both of those and 0/0% but, it should probably be a bit darker. The problem is any reduction in brightness blends 1/1% into 0/0% and that's not what I want. To be fair, you con go 1 to 2 clicks darker on the brightness and still tell the difference between 1% and 2% on the Vanity.dk page but, that drops the gamma lower than it should be. Speaking of the gamma, I eyeball it at around 2.25 (48%), 2.25 (25%), and 2.20 (10%) but it could be a little more or a little less.

Make sure that if you use these settings, you start on the "standard" setting rather than the "user" settings. It makes a difference as it will use the "standard" backlighting which is lower than the "user" backlighting is. Yes, i know that sounds a little out there but, it is what it is.

*edit*

he recent changes were done strictly in the Nvidia control panel. The DVI>HDMI desktop I/PQ (image/picture quality) was done first, then the video playback settings were done to mimic the desktop, then the Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) was done to mimic the video playback on the PC. Keep in mind that the Nividia control panel settings may not work for you as I was using a Geforce 6200 card. It's also possible that the Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) settings may not work for depending on the variances from set to set. For clarification though, here are the current settings for both the TV and the Nvidia control panel:

*edit* these have been updated

DVI>HDMI Nvidia Control Panel (Geforce 6200 with driver 275.33):

  • Adjust desktop colour settings

    37% Brightness
    00% Digital Vibrance
    35% Contrast
    1.24 Gamma (this was 1.14)
    00% Image Sharpening


  • Adjust video colour settings

    Colour

    50% Brightness (this was 51%)
    17% Contrast (this was 33%)
    21% Saturation (this was 28%)

    Gamma

    1.14 Red (this was 1.00)
    1.14 Green (this was 1.00)
    1.14 Blue (this was 1.00)


  • Adjust video image settings

    40% Edge enhancement
    40% Noise reduction (this was 100%)
    Check the box for Use inverse telecine

DVI>HDMI VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left and then 16 clicks to the right) (this was all the way to the left then 10 clicks to the right) (prior to that it was move the slider to --[]|---- then 14 clicks to the left)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then 1 click to the left) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 3 clicks to the right) (prior to that it was his was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 4 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off



In case you're wondering why I only listed those settings, it's because those are the relevant ones that you can see/change when using a DVI>HDMI signal.

In the Nvidia control panel, I set the Digital Vibrance to 0 in the Desktop Colour section but, you won't need to go that low. The 6200 can not strip out all the colour saturation like the newer cards can. I also want to point out that the gamma for the PC signal is a bit off but I haven't wanted to mess with it as this is just a temp PC until I get my motherboard back from RMA. This is one of the reasons I miss my Dynex DX-32L230A12 so much though because, the gamma was damn near perfect with just a very quick rough eye tune to video playback. And by damn near perfect I mean it was pretty much running at 2.25 (48%), 2.20 (25%), and 2.17 (10%) on the Lagom gamma test from just using the TV menu and not touching anything in the Nividia control panel. The VR-3730 is currently running around 2.18 (48%), 2.20 (25%), and 2.20 (10%) but, I want to stress that those results for both TVs are using my eyes and not any equipment so use them at your discretion.


*edit* these have been updated

In case you are wondering what my settings are for a Component (Y/PB/PR) signal for a DVD player they are as follows:

Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left, then 16 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider all the way to the left then leave it there) (prior to that it was it was move the bar all the way to the left then 3 clicks to the right) (prior to that it was move the slider to --[]|---- 14 clicks to the left)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then leave it there) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 4 clicks to the right) (prior to that it was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 2 clicks to the right)

    Colour (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the left) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 15 clicks to the left) (prior to that it was was move the slider to --[]|---- then 26 clicks to the left) (prior to that it was move the slider to --[]|---- then 21 clicks to the left)

    Sharpness (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 18 clicks to the right) (prior to that it was move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clocks to the right) (prior to that it was move the slider to --[]|---- then 38 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off (setting this to high can help smooth out any "grainy/poorly transferred" 480i DVDs)
    DLC is off



I have not had a chance to mess with a HDMI>HDMI DVD signal yet but i will later tonight.
 
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Actually I was wrong Fociz. AaronChiles was able to enable 4:4:4 on the VR-3730 via a HDMI>HDMI signal. His post can be found here but he doesn't really go in depth on the procedure he used. You might want to toss him a PM to get the details on what he did in case he's not actively keeping tabs on this thread.
 
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Just wanted to do some pricing updates for anyone still looking for a set on the "tested list".

Keep in mind that the RCA xxLA45RQ series doesn't do 4:4:4 but, it does have low lag in case you don't care about 4:4:4 and it is 1080p. Walmart currently has a refurbished version for $229.98 and a new version for $259.98 so it looks like they are getting ready to clearance this model out.

They also have a refurbished Westinghouse VR-4025 for $289.98 but i don;t know if that set has been tested for 4:4:4 or input lag.

They also have the Westinghouse VR-3730 for $329.98 but, that price is going to have to down at some point to clearance it out.
 
Thank you mucho Racer, I appreciate all the time and info.

I've already moved my Sony back onto my desk, and while i realize my eyes have been staring at this panel since 08 and that i could simply be used to it, the color, richness, and text are completely superior to both the Panny and Westy, and i've yet to even find out what type of panel Sony put in these Kdl-V4100's, but for a 40' panel, there is very little pixel crawl and literally no text smear whatsoever. I also do not have a clue on the input lag(specs state 8ms) of this set, but as a fairly picky gamer i've detected very little if any at all while using both mouse n kb, and a usb xbox controller.

Anyhoo, since you took the time, i may be forced to get off my fat ass and go upstairs and unbox the damned Westy again and try your suggestions.
My first 37' 1080p monitor(back in 05?) was a Westy 37w3? And i loved it! I was hooked on large monitors for PC gaming and haven't looked back. Although these new 27' true 120hz gaming monitors really have me wishing they would produce larger ones, atleast 32' cmon!

It is Sunday so..I'll get back to you on this Westy, thanks again.:cool:
 
No problem Fociz. If you decide to hook the VR-3730 back up, the difference will be night and day once you trigger 4:4:4 on it. The white text is currently a little "bright" for my tastes but I haven't bothered to "tweak" any of the settings in the TV menu yet nor will I be bothering with the Nvidia control panel until I get my rig running again. I'm far more concerned with trying to get this to mimic the video playback the DX-32L230A12 was capable of. I sincerely hope Dynex will be doing a CCFL model refresh of that set this year.

For anyone keeping tabs on my thoughts about the I/PQ (image/picture quality) on the VR-3730, I just got done taking still shots of the playback of Casino Royal (the 2006 remake) via a Component (Y/PB/PR) signal from the Pioneer DV-250 to the VR-3730. I still need to go through them and select the ones that look the closest so it will be a few hours before I post them. I will probably also paste the images I choose and the ones I chose for the DX-32L230A12 into a single image for a "rough" side by side comparison. I'm still pretty miffed about the overscan though as it's easily 5% if not more and that's one of the largest reasons I want to create the side by side image.
 
Fociz you've packed up the Westy already? This whole thread was pretty focused on the tweaks necessary to get a TV up and running as a monitor, i hope we didn't make it seem like it would be that easy :confused:. I agree with Racer, the first thing in your shopping cart probably should have been a dvi-to-hdmi cable, and then later would come the video card and TV menu tweaks. The dvi-to-hdmi cable isn't necessary in every single case but it makes troubleshooting so much easier. The good news is, once setup correctly, it'll look better than the ole Westy you had. But that Sony you have sounds so nice that your new Westy will have some competition.

Edit: Meant to also say...

Thank you for all of the updates and results Racer, you're slowly but surely becoming a one-stop-shop for info on the VR-3730. It was bound to happen with your patience and attention to detail :)
 
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I want to preface this with the fact that the camera did not like capturing the VR-3730 at all. I have no idea why the DX-32L230A12 photographed so well but, it did. On the pictures of the DX-32L230A12, the entire image was fairly indicative of what you would see in person except for the colours as they came out very desaturated. The colours on the DX-32L230A12 are better than the colours are on the VR-3730. However, on the pictures of the VR-3730, I urge you to only pay attention to the black levels because the colours and some of the greys are extremely overexposed. The greys do not have a blue tinge to them like the picture taken indicates as this is an illusion added by the camera. The pictures of the VR-3730 also make it look like some of the dark details are lost. They are and they aren't. The pictures make it look worse than it is in person but I was forced between pictures that would show the details or pictures that would show how dark the black levels went. I chose the latter. The pictures of the VR-3730 also make it look like the darkest black level matches the bezel but it doesn't. It's a result of the ballast/bias lighting seeping in from the curtains and, the camera aided in exaggerating it.

e.g. The last picture makes it look like you can not see Le Chiffre's bow-tie on the VR-3730 but, you can. It however does not stand out as "sharply" as it does on the DX-32L230A12. Please do not mistake my usage of the word "sharply" as an issue of edge sharpness/pixel density as that is not what I am referring to. I am referring to the black level seperation the DX-32L230A12 was capable of. This picture also makes it look like you can't see where his arm/shoulder ends in comparison to the guard behind him but, you can.

The VR-3730 is acceptable but, the DX-32L230A12 absolutely trounces it in person. The VR-3730 does an acceptable job at separating black levels but, the DX-32L230A12 did phenomenal job at it. The VR-3730 does have a higher level of black crush but, you can almost make out the same level of details in the black levels. They just don't stand out as well compared to the DX-32L230A12 unless you "wash out" the picture with a higher brightness setting but, that obviously makes your black levels grey. The pictures below don't really do either set justice (the video was paused in exactly the same spot for each set).

VR-3730 (there is no blue tinge to the greys)


DX-32L230A12



VR-3730


DX-32L230A12



VR-3730 (there is no blue tinge to the greys)


DX-32L230A12



VR-3730


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730


DX-32L230A12 (this image wasn't really this dark. It was every bit as bright if not brighter than the VR-3730 and, the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730 (you can make out the differing skin tones on the children running)


DX-32L230A12 (this image wasn't really this dark and, you can make out the differing skin tones on the children running)



VR-3730 (you can tell where Le Chiffre ends and where the guard and 007 start)


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)
 
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Thank you for all of the updates and results Racer, you're slowly but surely becoming a one-stop-shop for info on the VR-3730. It was bound to happen with your patience and attention to detail :)

Ha, I just saw this after I made a new rather lengthy post about it just now. Thanks again for the kind words. I really need to co back and add the updated information to my initial review of the VR-3730 like I did with my initial review of the DX-32L230A12 so that it's easier to read and more concise. That having been said . . .

I probably wouldn't have nearly as much to say about the VR-3730 if it weren't for that damn DX-32L230A12. That set is without a doubt my unicorn ("Gone in 60 Seconds" 2000 remake reference) so it's really hard to be "fair" to the VR-3730 as it has a large set of expectations to meet. Honestly every comparison I do makes me that much more on the fence about it but, given the current offerings/prices and the fact the DX-32L230A12 can only be found at FutureMark in Canada versus what I payed for the VR-3730 . . .

I don''t know that I can actually do any better right now. In fact, I'm almost certain I can't do better right now. It's just that I was "tainted" by temporarily having a better set that would have easily sold for $400+ if it had anyone's name on it other than "Dynex". There is no way in the world I was expecting what that set was capable of with such a minor amount of effort and there is a chance it still had more left in it since the service menu could be accessed.

To be fair, there is probably a lot left in the VR-3730 for a PC connection but when it comes to video playback, I think I've found the pinnacle of what it can do without having access to the service menu. I feel that a proper backlight adjustment could really make a difference as it certainly did on the DX-32L230A12. There has got to be a way to coerce the service menu procedure out of someone . . .
 
I thought the same, it's both fortunate and unfortunate that you experienced the Dynex, but on the whole i'd say "more fortunate" since both you and the rest of us now know how good some of these TV's can be when they use the right parts and firmware.

Within a couple of days i'm going to start a fresh search on service menu codes, and try out some codes from other makes/models that i missed. I have a hunch that a service menu would bring you closer to where you want to be. But on the flipside i would be merciless if i were you, if the VR-3730 isn't giving you what you want then i would box it up and return it, but then you would really be back to square one :(.

Just keep an eye on your VR-3730's last return date.
 
This is a very interesting thread. I am going to go home and bust out my macro lens to examine my TV closer and report back my findings. I have been using my LG TV as a monitor for a while, but haven't used it as one for the past year really.
 
I thought the same, it's both fortunate and unfortunate that you experienced the Dynex, but on the whole i'd say "more fortunate" since both you and the rest of us now know how good some of these TV's can be when they use the right parts and firmware.

Within a couple of days i'm going to start a fresh search on service menu codes, and try out some codes from other makes/models that i missed. I have a hunch that a service menu would bring you closer to where you want to be. But on the flipside i would be merciless if i were you, if the VR-3730 isn't giving you what you want then i would box it up and return it, but then you would really be back to square one :(.

Just keep an eye on your VR-3730's last return date.

I'm watching it like a hawk. I have until 03.28 to return it and, I may wind up doing that depending on what happens between then and now. The biggest issue is I don't know if anything else will really do what the DX-32L230A12 did because TVs mostly use S-MVA and IPS panels. The DX-32L230A12 used an AUO A-MVA panel and they just aren't that common apparently. I mean theoretically, if the VR-3225 is "similar" in some regards to the LG 32LK450, then the VR-3730 would likely be to some extent as well. Granted, the VR-3730 has completely different internals but, it "appears" that the Westinghouse CCFL sets can hold their own against other S-PVA panels.

Unfortunately, it's already hard enough to find a 4:4:4 set with low input lag and, I am wanting to further complicate that by wanting/needing an AUO A-MVA panel. That brings up another problem as well as I don;t know if the panels were bad from AUO or if Dynex screwed them up on the two DX-32L230A12s I had.

I don't really want to "settle" but, I don't know that I have much choice in the matter given the lack of sets that contain AUO A-MVA panels. That only encompasses the issue with the black levels though. The pixel density is still as clear as day from a viewing distance of 2' away and I don't think my eyes are ever going to get used to it. There is also an issue with text on a dark background. It doesn't appear as sharp as it really is. Bloom isn't really the right word to use but it's like the text gives off to much light and that creates an illusion of a slight bit of "fuzziness" that isn't really there. It's likely an issue of contrast/brightness though as it's not present if you turn up the brightness which of course washes everything out. I think it's going to be really tricky to find the proper balance between the two without damaging the black levels, white levels and the stepping in the colours. To be fair, it could also be an issue with the backlight just being to damn bright.

It looks like I'm going to wind up running the clock out to see if I can't figure something out on the VR-3730 unless something else goes on sale in the meantime. If I lived in the far north, I would be buying/returning DX-32L230A12s from FutureMark as needed though until I got one that wasn't defective.
 
Just a small update. I have changed the TV menu settings for the DVI>HDMI signal from the PC to the VR-3730. My eyes are still adjusting to the change so I'm going to ignore that the whites look a little "dingy" right now as they always do when you bleed out contrast. These settings bring the gamma a lot closer to where it should be but, it also makes the gamma shift from a viewing angle shift more apparent. Everything has its trade-offs though when it comes to A/V adjustments.

These changes were made by "eye-balling" it and without any equipment. The room is also completely dark barring the light from the TV, router lights, HTIAB (home theater in a box) receiver, etc. so, it should be interesting to see how this looks during the day. The adjustments were made using the Lagom test page and the Vanity.dk test page. The focus was placed on correcting the gamma and still being able to see the lowest black level (1 on Lagom & 1% on Vanity.dk). You can see the difference between both of those and 0/0% but, it should probably be a bit darker. The problem is any reduction in brightness blends 1/1% into 0/0% and that's not what I want. To be fair, you con go 1 to 2 clicks darker on the brightness and still tell the difference between 1% and 2% on the Vanity.dk page but, that drops the gamma lower than it should be. Speaking of the gamma, I eyeball it at around 2.25 (48%), 2.25 (25%), and 2.20 (10%) but it could be a little more or a little less. *edit* I need to stress that I had to set the "Digital Vibrance" in the Nvidia control panel to "0" to achieve this gamma level. Without that alteration, the colours and thus the gamma are incredibly jacked up. Don't set your "Digital Vibrance" this low as it will usually make your picture black & white. This setting will vary from card to card so it will require trial and error. "0" just happened to be the sweet spot on this 6200 card though it could probably use a bit less which isn't possible.

Make sure that if you use these settings, you start on the "standard" setting rather than the "user" settings. It makes a difference as it will use the "standard" backlighting which is lower than the "user" backlighting is. Yes, i know that sounds a little out there but, it is what it is.

Anyway here are the new TV menu settings:

DVI>HDMI VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left and then 16 clicks to the right) (this was all the way to the left then 10 clicks to the right)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then 1 click to the left) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 3 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off



Further corrections are likely going to need the video card control panel and/or the service menu. The individual gamma controls for r/g/b in the video control panel have the potential to push the gamma closer than what I currently estimate it at. They can just as easily ruin the white balance though but i honestly have no idea what that's currently at anyway except for the fact that I can just barely make out 253 on the Lagom white saturation test (no amount of changes in the TV menu will get the 255 blocks to show). There is also the possibility that the video card control panel will allow for smaller steps in the contrast/brightness as well.

For the sake of argument, here are updated PixPerAn results. These were done with the contrast 5 clicks to the left and the Brightness 4 clicks to the right as it tells you to turn the OSD contrast as high as possible while still being able to distinguish the lightest coloured boxes when you set the program's gamma. There is less ghosting involved on the streaky image but, the program's screen capture of it just doesn't match what was on the screen as it's far more defined than the screen capture indicates.

New results:

Graphics mode: 1920x1080 @ 32 bpp
Frame rate: 60.1 Hz
Gamma factor: 1.9625

Flag test: b->w: 81.9%, w->b: 96.1%, b->g: 87.2%, w->g: 91.6%
Chase test: 10(16.7ms), 10(16.7ms), 12(20.0ms)
Readability: Tempo 8
Game: Score: 88 Points, hit rate: 26%
streaky graphic: -

Old results:

Graphics mode: 1920x1080 @ 32 bpp
Frame rate: 60.0 Hz
Gamma factor: 2.0083

Flag test: b->w: 91.8%, w->b: 98.7%, b->g: 94.9%, w->g: 91.4%
Chase test: 10(16.7ms), 9(15.0ms), 14(23.3ms)
Readability: Tempo 8 (the text was not readable past this point. Certain letters were though)
Game: Score: 50 Points, hit rate: 26%
streaky graphic: -
 
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Given that I have more accurate settings on the DVI>HDMI signal from the PC concerning gamma, back levels, white levels, colour saturation, etc. I decided to setup MPC HCE (Media Player Classic Home Cinema Edition) to mimic the PC accuracy as closely as I could. I didn't use the Brightness, contrast, and saturation adjustments built into MPC HCE because XP sucks and it won't allow those adjustments to make changes. I had to use the video playback settings in the Nvidia control panel to take care of this. Please understand that the following settings will likely vary from card to card especially the saturation one.

DVI>HDMI Nvidia Control Panel (Geforce 6200 with driver 275.33):

  • Adjust desktop colour settings

    37% Brightness
    00% Digital Vibrance
    35% Contrast
    1.24 Gamma (this was 1.14)
    00% Image Sharpening


  • Adjust video colour settings

    Colour

    50% Brightness (this was 51%)
    17% Contrast (this was 33%)
    21% Saturation (this was 28%)

    Gamma

    1.14 Red (this was 1.00)
    1.14 Green (this was 1.00)
    1.14 Blue (this was 1.00)


  • Adjust video image settings

    40% Edge enhancement
    40% Noise reduction (this was 100%)
    Check the box for Use inverse telecine

DVI>HDMI VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left and then 16 clicks to the right) (this was all the way to the left then 10 clicks to the right)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then 1 click to the left) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 3 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off


The only drawback is that the viewing cone at eye level tends to "crush" the details in the black levels a bit and there is an obvious gamma shift to everything on the screen from shifting your viewing angle. That however is the nature of LCDs especially ones that aren't A-MVA. I know you guys are sick of hearing me praise the A-MVA panel at this point but, it is what it is and A-MVA panels handle the viewing cone area and viewing angle shifts better as well as the black levels. They however were specifically designed to do that so it's not really a "fair fight".

*edit* I need to point out that as your viewing distance increases, the "crush" caused by the viewing cone area "appears" to increase. I'm not sure what causes this illusion unless it's related to light output. Increasing the contrast will improve the black/grey level separation but, it makes the backlighting entirely to bright and, it will throw the gamma and other levels out of wack. You can correct the viewing cone "crush" by bumping the brightness but, that is going to throw your levels off and it's going to lighten the black levels more than they already are. Like with most TVs, you're going to have to pick your poison.


The following picture shows a comparison of a screenshot taken of the playback on the PC and of the paused playback (in windowed mode) so that you can see how close these settings mimic those of the desktop/browser. This was done with PC and not with the camera so that I could rule out the camera as a variable. However your displays and their settings will still be a variable but, there is no way any of us can fully control that variable outside of doing an actual calibration with equipment.

Anyway, I have cropped the image down in order to showcase what is being compared:

*EDIT* These images were taken with a much older set of adjustments made to the settings on the TV and the video card's control panel. As such these images do not reflect the current I/PQ (image/picture quality) which has closed the gap to some extent with the DX-32L230A12. The DX-32L230A12 is still the better TV though.

ScreenshotvsPlayback-1.jpg



Here is the screenshot of just the paused video playback (in windowed mode) so that you can have an idea of what the full scene looks like:

BoatPokerwhisper-1.jpg



In fact, in the spirit of fairness (well sort of as I didn't do this with the DX-32L230A12), here are screenshots done with the PC of the paused video playback (in windowed mode) of all the scenes. I'm posting these as the are accurate to what I actually see on the screen and because the camera obscured so many of the details in the black levels on the VR-3730. These screen shots give the VR-3730 an "unfair" advantage when compared to the still shots taken with the camera of the DX-32L230A12. In person, the DX-32L230A12 surpasses the the following screenshots of the VR-3730. The VR-3730 is inching closer and closer to closing that gap though. However, I am very close to the "limit" of what I can do with the TV menu and the Nvidia control panel and I don't think I am going to be able to improve the black levels much more if at all barring the use of actual ballast/bias lighting. Speaking of which, I will do an update post later today once the sun seeps through the curtains at a level similar to what it has been when taking pictures with the camera. The DX-32L230A12 didn't care about the lighting level in the room as it could do those deep blacks at night with no light light sources. It's not really fair to expect a S-PVA panel to pull that off though given the high contrast ratio an A-MVA panel is able to mimic especially when I don't have access to the backlight level on the VR-3730. All that having been said, here are the screenshots:

VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the greys were not this washed out/over exposed)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the greys were not this washed out/over exposed)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the greys were not this washed out/over exposed)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (this image wasn't really this dark. It was every bit as bright if not brighter than the VR-3730 and, the colours were much more saturated)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (this image wasn't really this dark and, you can make out the differing skin tones on the children running)



VR-3730 (PC screenshot of windowed playback)


DX-32L230A12 (the colours were much more saturated)
 
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Small update on the overscan issue. I'm still unable to stop the VR-3730 from overscanning on the Component (Y/PB/PR) signal. Even using the Phillips DVP3982 with it's "upconverter" couldn't stop the overscan but, there is no way to change the resolution on the DVP3982 when using the Component (Y/PB/PR) signal.

However, with a HDMI>HDMI signal from the Phillips DVP3982 and setting it to either "auto", "720p", "1080i", or "1080p" I was able to select "standard" on the VR-3730 and it stopped the overscan. The only caveat to this is "fill" is the default setting and Westinghouse TV's refuse to memorize any of the settings you change in the "setup" portion of their menu. According to at least one review, this is intentional according to what Westinghouse allegedly told them. If that's true, it's an incredibly foolish decision.


Based on these results it's probably safe to assume the VR-3730 is going to overscan on the S-video, Composite (yellow RCA cable), and Coaxial (antenna) inputs unless the device you connect to them can have it's resolution set to "720p", "1080i", or "1080p". That is strictly a guess though and, I have no way to test it. It also doesn't help that Westinghouse doesn't list the maximum resolution each input is capable of like every other manufacturer in the world does. I have a feeling the S-video, Composite (yellow RCA cable), and Coaxial (antenna) are all going to be capped at 480i though which means they will always overscan.

While those inputs may not concern everyone, they will concern the people that have older equipment or people using a satellite/cable box that doesn't have HDMI or a way to make the VR-3730 "see" a "720p", "1080i", or "1080p" signal. This is a major flaw for a set that had it's original price at $429.99+ and it's still a major flaw at the price I got one for. I can look past the issues about S-PVA panels vs A-MVA panels but, overscan issues are really a dealbreaker for me as I absolutely despise it. There is just no reason for a digital display to use overscan and, there is even less of a reason to have no way to disable it. No one should have to use/purchase different equipment just to have a way to trick a TV into bypassing overscan and this is by far the most irritating issue this set has.

Granted the Pioneer DVD-250 is incredibly old but, the DX-32L230A12 had a menu option to disable the overscan on every input except the Composite (RCA yellow cable) and there is no reason to replace a piece of functioning DVD player. In case anyone is thinking "but you have the Phillips DVP3982" that is a player that I borrow to troubleshoot with and, even if it was mine, it wouldn't solve the overscan on the other inputs.

I am in desperate need of the service menu at this point as are all Westinghouse owners. It makes me wonder if Westinghouse just refuses to give the procedure out or, if no one bothers to have their Westinghouse sets ISF calibrated. If the older sets are anything to go by, Westinghouse doesn't like to give the information out and there are claims it will void your warranty as you can apparently wipe out the firmware to the point of it not being able to be repaired from screwing up a setting.
 
Just another quick update. I have updated the TV menu settings for the Component (Y/PB/PR) input to be as close as possible to the DVI>HDMI sinal from the PC. It seems a little off but it's pretty close and it's likely a result of the way the Nivida control panel is handling part of the gamma through the "Digital Vibrance" setting along with having custom settings for video playback in the Nivida control panel. I may revise these later (*edit* These have been revised and the Component (Y/PB/PR) signal is now very close to the DVI>HDMI signal. The only way to get them any closer is to bleed out some more contrast but, that's not possible without the service menu):

*edit* these have been updated

Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left, then 16 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider all the way to the left then leave it there)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then leave it there) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 4 clicks to the right)

    Colour (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the left) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 15 clicks to the left)

    Sharpness (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 18 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off (setting this to high can help smooth out any "grainy/poorly transferred" 480i DVDs)
    DLC is off



I didn't bother to do the HDMI>HDMI settings when I had the Phillps DVP3892 hooked up as I would rather do that with a DVD player that doesn't have adjustable contrast/brightness/saturation settings built into it. That having been said, there's a pretty good chance those extra adjustments could push the I/PQ (image/picture quality) closer to what the DVI>HDMI signal is.

Even if you ignore the fact the DVI>HDMI signal doesn't overscan, it still looks better overall than the Component (Y/PB/PR) signal does. A lot of people would attribute that to it being a HDMI signal but remember the DVD being used is (480i) so the HDMI signal isn't going to boost the I/PQ like it would on material with a higher resolution. I really think the Nvidia control panel is the deciding factor here.


I really need to dig my PS2 out of storage and test my theory about seeing if one can defeat the Component (Y/PB/PR) overscan by setting a device to "720p" (e.g the PS2 via a softmod). I guess I could always borrow a 360 as well with a Component (Y/PB/PR) cable and see if I am able to bypass it with that.
 
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I got bored and couldn't wait any longer to see what WoW looks like so, I installed it. Performance is bad as the 6200 is only cranking out 25-30 fps but, huge screen is huge. This must be why people say 37" is the sweet spot for monitor use lol. This is going to be crazy once I get my motherboard back and my rig running again. The text is a little "soft" at the edges though and after looking at it, I'm starting to think the text issue in Windows I discussed in a previous post is a result of the same thing. It's almost like XP is trying to "blurr" the pixels that make up the text but I'm not sure why as I have all of that disabled. This might be a result of on the decrease in pixel density but, it could also be that W7 is just better at text. It could also just as easily be the 6200 card though and I'm thinking it likely is and it has something to do with how it handles the sharpness setting as changing it from 0% to 4% has corrected it to some extent. Doing this brightens any text that isn't black or white and I currently have it at 9% as there is no reason to go higher unless i want to sharpen the text in pictures (e.g. Pooh's 4:4:4 test images at AVS). Raising the sharpness setting in the Nvidia control panel will darken the pixels around light text on a dark background and brighten them around dark text on light backgrounds. However, the correct setting should be 0% according to the Lagom sharpness test page. This is "patch job" at best and a shoddy one at that as it actually makes text harder to read from a distance of more than 2' as it makes some text look "thinner" In fact I've just had to revert the sharpness in the Nvidia control panel to 0% as it just looks better even if it is "fuzzy" at the edges.

I just wish I had a way to determine if it's the 6200 or the pixel density but, I don't have a way to do that right now.


All that having been said, in an attempt to solve this issue by messing with the Nvidia control panel I've managed to keep the sharpness at 0% correct the gamma settings (eyeballing it, it's super close to 2.18 (48%), 2.20 (25%), and 2.18 (10%)), keep the black levels similar to what they were (can't see 1 on the Lagom test but the 0% and 1% separation is a bit better on Vanity.dk), and I can now just barely (and I mean just barely) make out the 254 squares on the Lagom white saturation test. The text issue is improving and that's probably because the white levels aren't as saturated as they were. They are a little dingy looking but that's typical after reducing white saturation and my eyes should adjust later on just like they did last night.

This also brings up something I forgot to mention previously and that's about gradient banding. Prior to using the Nvidia control panel, the banding was only near the darker portions of the gradients. The use of the Nvidia control panel has resulted in banding in the rest of the gradient as well. You don't notice it on the black>colour % scales though and, it isn't really seen in video playback very often either (usually during "logo screens" like the New Line Cinema animation). As usual everything has its trade-off.

Anyway, the TV settings are the same as they were earlier and the recent changes were done strictly in the Nvidia control panel. The DVI>HDMI desktop I/PQ (image/picture quality) was done first, then the video playback settings were done to mimic the desktop, then the Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) was done to mimic the video playback on the PC. Keep in mind that the Nividia control panel settings may not work for you as I was using a Geforce 6200 card. It's also possible that the Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) settings may not work for depending on the variances from set to set. For clarification though, here are the current settings for both the TV and the Nvidia control panel:

DVI>HDMI Nvidia Control Panel (Geforce 6200 with driver 275.33):

  • Adjust desktop colour settings

    37% Brightness
    00% Digital Vibrance
    35% Contrast
    1.24 Gamma (this was 1.14)
    00% Image Sharpening


  • Adjust video colour settings

    Colour

    50% Brightness (this was 51%)
    17% Contrast (this was 33%)
    21% Saturation (this was 28%)

    Gamma

    1.14 Red (this was 1.00)
    1.14 Green (this was 1.00)
    1.14 Blue (this was 1.00)


  • Adjust video image settings

    40% Edge enhancement
    40% Noise reduction (this was 100%)
    Check the box for Use inverse telecine

DVI>HDMI VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left and then 16 clicks to the right) (this was all the way to the left then 10 clicks to the right)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then 1 click to the left) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 3 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off



Component (Y/PB/PR)>Component (Y/PB/PR) VR-3730 menu settings:

  • Picture

    Contrast (move the slider all the way to the left, then 16 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider all the way to the left then leave it there)

    Brightness (move the slider to ----|[]-- then leave it there) (this was move the slider to ----|[]-- then 4 clicks to the right)

    Colour (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the left) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 15 clicks to the left)

    Sharpness (move the slider to --[]|---- then 20 clicks to the right) (this was move the slider to --[]|---- then 18 clicks to the right)

    Colour Temp is Neutral


  • Setup

    Noise Reduction is off (setting this to high can help smooth out any "grainy/poorly transferred" 480i DVDs)
    DLC is off


At some point I am going to have to condense all of the information about the VR-3730 to its own thread as I don't think anyone else has been this "hands-on" with it. Sort of makes me wish I had calibration/testing equipment so that I can confirm/improve my eyeball settings.
 
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I decided to take a few pictures of the Lagom and Vanity test pages. The camera didn't play well with most of the tests. I could really only get shots of the Lagom gamma, Lagom gradient, and Lagom white saturation. Please keep in mind that these pictures are in no way colour accurate to what I see. They are just to show where the gamma falls, where the banding is, and how the white saturation boxes "look". Please make sure to read the notes above each image as they will give false impressions if you skip the details. I will try taking pictures during the day to see if they will turn out any better than the night ones did as I would really like to get some colour accurate ones posted. Anyway, here are the pictures:

Lagom gamma:

The red is a little brighter in person. The blue is a little darker in person. The greens, white, and grey are substantially brighter in person. This picture makes everything look more muted/dingy than it is and, I'm sure everyone can tell from the images of the video playback that this set is far from muted/dingy. I as unable to capture colour accuracy but, this picture was only meant to show where the gamma falls and being out of focus helps in that regard. It looks like the gamma is pretty much where it should be but I'm sure others might think differently.

DSCF0653.jpg



Lagom gradient:

The greys are substantially "warmer" in person. This picture was meant to show where the banding occurs at. The camera didn't pick up the banding towards the end of the black levels though. It's also slightly out of focus which represents a viewing distance of around 5' or squinting you eyes at about 2'. If you are sitting about 2' from the screen and looking at it normally, the banding is a bit more obvious as you can see more individual bands.

DSCF0726.jpg



Lagom white saturation:

This is not even remotely close to being colour accurate. The gamma is higher/white levels are brighter/the boxes are lighter/etc in person. This is an "exagerated" shot to show what boxes are visible. You may have trouble seeing the boxes in the 254 range but, they are there.

DSCF0661.jpg
 
Does anyone think that the low end Sony TV's might possibly support 4:4:4?

Sony will be shipping a new model at 40" with a $499 MSRP this week:

Model number: KDL-40BX450

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/st...&XID=O:KDL40BX450:ggle:df&CAWELAID=1247179912

I believe that this new model is replacing the KDL40BX420 which had a $599 MSRP:

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/st...gId=&langId=200&productId=8198552921666294417


I really want a 37", but am trying to find alternatives beyond the LG.
There's a chance that the information was posted in the respective owner's threads for those models at the AVS forums.

But otherwise the rest of us refer to PoohContinuum's pass/fail list right here.

I do see the BX520 listed as having passed the 4:4:4 test.
 
Hey Sjet and Racer, found this. And at $299 free shipping, thinking seriously about an eyefinity setup.

Sceptre 40" Class LCD 1080p 60Hz HDTV, X405BV-FHD

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-4...=11914194081213110807&wmlspartner=Es5Ekr9eEBk

If you google the model number along with 4:4:4, some guy is claiming this set does 4:4:4 but I cannot find the direct link or anything on AVS. Since Sceptre does has a huge background in PC displays, I tend to think it does support 4:4:4 but, need to find more on the set. Especially latency.

Any of you guys know more about this model?
 
Hey Sjet and Racer, found this. And at $299 free shipping, thinking seriously about an eyefinity setup.

Sceptre 40" Class LCD 1080p 60Hz HDTV, X405BV-FHD

Any of you guys know more about this model?

This may not be what you want to hear but given that those search results deal with "deal sites" there is a chance the 4:4:4 comment is about another set. I've run into that before on other sets. However, I can;t actually get to the results even in the cached pages so I can't confirm or deny if that's the case here.

I'm not sure about that set or anything from Scepter. I did see the brand several times in price range searches and almost considered testing some of their models as well as a few other companies. The DX-32L230A12 and the VR-3730 removed the need to do so though.

All anyone can tell you is to try it out. Since it's at Walmart, the return will be hassle free as it "won't meet your expectations/usage scenario" if it fails 4:4:4 or has poor I/PQ (image/picture quality). At 40" though you need to start taking pixel density into account though. as you're going to give up around 512 pixels per sq. in. compared to a 37" and that's a large amount.

To give you an idea of the effect this can have, take into account that:

A 24" @ 1920x1080 has 8428 pixels per sq. in.

A 32" @ 1920x1080 has 4743 pixels per sq. in.

A 37" @ 1920x1080 has 3547 pixels per sq. in.

A 40" @ 1920x1080 has 3035 pixels per sq. in.

There's an old saying with cars that "there is no replacement for displacement". That isn't always true though. With displays there is an old rule that "you buy the largest you can afford" and, that isn't always true either. There are a lot of nuances and usage scenarios one has to consider.

I can personally tell you that the pixel density loss between a 32" and a 37" is visible but, I can also tell you that difference in "immersion" is also visible. If you frequently deal with text in a game or elsewhere, you may not like what you see as you go to larger sets. Everyone's eyes are different though as are lighting conditions, settings, panel variances, sets, etc.

Unfortunately, you "don't know till you know" and pretty much everything has to be taken for a "test drive" no matter how much something has been reviewed/researched.
 
Nah, check my sig. I've owned large crts / and lcd's going back 15+ years. Currently own an LG LD450 42". Self professed godfather really of the larger format. Never understood why people hunch over in front of small tiny 23" lcd's. A gaming sin and crime as far as I'm concerned. Some displays i've owned over the years, Sony 21" G520, Sony 24" FW900, Nokia 21" 445xi. My first 21" was a ViewSonic G810 I think which died on me after about a year in a half. Handful of 17" CRTs back when they cost $700 - $800. Edit, lol, just remembered, I also owned a 21" Midwest Micro CRT way way back in the day I bought used from a Kansas City Computer Show for about $750. They were $1,000 new at the time. Remember those guys? They had the Barn and Silo Logo? Good ol' memories.

No, if you would have Googled it, you can clearly see someone is talking about that model specifically and not just in general. The continuity of the statement is there. It's not web cache / mash-up as you suggest. Just because this model isn't on anyones list doesn't mean it doesn't support 4:4:4. There are only a very small fraction of people, maybe a few hundred in the community between here and avs forums that are even tracking these sets. In fact, the official AVS forums 4:4:4 thread is missing 6 or 7 sets that I haven't had a chance to update that guy on yet.

Was hoping to see if you two knew the origin of this guys posting / comment. It's out there. Can't find it. Looks like he posted to a deals site forum. Could have been some dude that bought the set, tested it then commented on it without sharing his findings. I've run across several of these guys already.

I know that there are several 40" panels out there that support 4:4:4 that are marketed for the commercial industry. Shopping Kiosks, Healthcare, Hospitality and Gaming. Also Travel such as Airports, etc. Somewhere I have an extensive list of those panels as well.

I may just have one shipped in to my local Walmart and get it tested out and return it if I have any issues. $299 for a 40" panel sounds great. I even have the service menu code so I'm anxious to find out more about this model, panel and capabilities.

I wanted to try and line up some really nice 32" or 40" LCD's before I pull the trigger on 3 x of those really nice 27" IPS LED Catleaps from South Korea
 
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