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Have you tested and confirmed this, or is this something you feel to be the case?Yes you can use a frame limiter with vsync, it actually improves mouse response too.
what?If your framerate is not exactly at your refresh rate then you are not getting anything from vsync..
The two main alternatives for VSync in Skyrim are:
1. Leave VSync enabled in Skyrim (i.e. the default), and enable Triple Buffering instead using the D3DOverrider utility which comes with the free RivaTuner software. This will improve performance and can reduce mouse lag without resulting in other negative effects. Furthermore, because the FPS cap from VSync remains in place, your vertical mouse axis will not become incredibly sensitive, though it will still become sluggish at low FPS. The only issue is that Triple Buffering uses more Video RAM which may cause problems on some systems, and it may not reduce mouse lag to the same degree as simply disabling VSync. To counter this, check the other mouse-related variables in this section.
2. Disable VSync and use a FPS Limiter Mod to maintain any FPS cap you wish, though 60 or 30 FPS is recommended. This will prevent extreme vertical mouse sensitivity and physics issues, and will remove mouse lag, but there may still be some tearing.
the amount of tearing can vary wildly from game to game. all different types of tearing can occur though any time that vsync is off no matter what the framerate is.If you are at -1FPS from your refresh rate then vsync is eliminated. All you should get is a really slow tear somewhere on your screen. Maybe you don't notice it.
And if your mouse lag is actually gone, that would be another clue.
Anyway, if you want to limit your FPS to (refresh - 1) then just do that and don't try to turn on vsync. What do you see that is different?
Another experiment you can try is limit frame rate to match refresh, leaving vsync off. You probably get a fixed screen tear that maybe scoots around a little bit. That's how it was on CRT's anyway.
If you are at -1FPS from your refresh rate then vsync is eliminated. All you should get is a really slow tear somewhere on your screen. Maybe you don't notice it.
Anyway, if you want to limit your FPS to (refresh - 1) then just do that and don't try to turn on vsync. What do you see that is different?
Another experiment you can try is limit frame rate to match refresh, leaving vsync off. You probably get a fixed screen tear that maybe scoots around a little bit. That's how it was on CRT's anyway.
Have you tested and confirmed this, or is this something you feel to be the case?
I think you need to actually try it before speculating any further about how you think it should work, and I don't mean that disrespectfully. You might be surprised by the results.
That's not what I'd call a rigid scientific test.Try it yourself in any source engine game, set fps_max 0 in console, enable vsync with solid 60fps, feel mouse. Then set fps_max 60 or 61, 62 etc with vsync still enabled and feel the mouse again.
That doesn't make any sense, no offense. FPS can drop below refresh rate easily in a performance-challenged situation, it wouldn't lose Vsync.
Well, screen tearing, for one.
I think you need to actually try it before speculating any further about how you think it should work, and I don't mean that disrespectfully. You might be surprised by the results.
where are you using triple buffering from?Well, I tried Vsync + Framerate limiter at 59 and it actually seemed to make a difference. I also made sure to force Triple Buffering specifically for the application (instead of Global which seems to not always work?) and it seemed to decrease the mouse lag significantly.
I could have sworn I tried this already, but maybe when I tried it before Triple Buffering wasn't being forced for some reason? Or maybe just the 59 FPS limit made a difference. Anyway, me likey.
That's not what I'd call a rigid scientific test.
The reason I asked is because the technique doesn't really make any sense from a technical perspective. Given the way frame limiters work, and how vertical sync works (in much the same way as an internal frame limiter works), it just doesn't make sense that setting a frame rate limiter to some arbitrary number above the refresh rate will have any effect on how perceptible input lag is.
Well, key for me was setting VSync + Triple Buffering and the limiter at 1 frame below refresh rate, not above, i.e., 59fps limit for 60hz refresh.
Has anyone figured how using a fps limiter + vsync actually reduces input lag. We know it works, but how does it work. I've tried googl'ing and never was able to find an answer.
Perhaps it is because the frame rate limiter is overriding the Vsync setting, and you are actually running without vsync. Intellectually, I can't see how those two things could work at the same time - if the frame rate limiter says to limit the speed to 59 FPS, and Vsync is trying to force 60 FPS, which one wins?
that makes no sense. if the framerate is capped at 59 then of course you will still get tearing with adaptive vsync since vsync will never kick in. if you run regular vsync then there will be no tearing at any framerate but capping the framerate at 59 while doing that will make things a little stuttery. in other words that 59 fps myth is nonsense because all you have to do is pan around slowly and you will see a little hitch at 59 fps with vsync on.I've already tested this in skyrim and in world of warcraft. And looked for tearing when FPS dropped below 59. Didn't see any. Yeah thats the question is how does it work while keep vsync going below 59fps. I've tested adaptive vsync and saw tearing below 60fps. So vsync + FPS limiter is not the same thing, but vsync is on 100% of the time.
that makes no sense. if the framerate is capped at 59 then of course you will still get tearing with adaptive vsync since vsync will never kick in. if you run regular vsync then there will be no tearing at any framerate but capping the framerate at 59 while doing that will make things a little stuttery. in other words that 59 fps myth is nonsense because all you have to do is pan around slowly and you will see a little hitch at 59 fps with vsync on.
Like I've said before. I've tested adaptive vsync in WoW and saw tearing below 59fps. Now follow me closely here. Now I turn on vsync instead, turn off adaptive vsync so vsync is application controlled. Set fps limiter on to 59. Go into WoW and see no tearing below 60fps. So common sense says that if you can see tearing with adaptive and not with fps limiter + vsync. Then vsync is actually staying on all the time with the fps limiter.
You totally didn't understand what I was saying. I know how adaptive works, but the point is I can see tearing below 60fps and I don't see it with vsync + fps limiter.
they can call it that but capping the framerate below refresh rate with vsync on will cause a consistent little hitch when panning around in the games I tested in. removing the below refresh rate cap removed the hitching every time and turning it back on reintroduced it.On the nvidia driver functions for frame rate limiting it has an option for a 58fps limit with the comment "for no inputlag on vsync 60hz" etc.
http://i49.tinypic.com/4j9ibt.png
they can call it that but capping the framerate below refresh rate with vsync on will cause a consistent little hitch when panning around in the games I tested in. removing the below refresh rate cap removed the hitching every time and turning it back on reintroduced it.