Stuttering without vsync

[mmarasco]

Hi everyone!

Specs:
Gigabyte GTX 580 super overclock edition x2 (SLI)
Gigabyte G1.Sniper2 motherboard
Intel 2600k (o/c to 4.5ghz)
12gb RAM
Corsair 1050 HX psu
Force 3 60gb SSD (Windows 7 pro 64bit installed)
Western digital 2tb Black (Games+stuff installed)
Monitor: Samsung SyncMaster 2233sw (60hz)


The problem I am experiencing is stuttering when vysnc is disabled across all games. If I were to enable vysnc, the stuttering is gone and the game runs silky smooth at locked 60FPS.

I have tested with both GPUs running as single and the problem still occurs. All drivers are updated including the motherboard. I have tested locking frames at 50, 60, 70, 80 etc and the problem still occurs if Vsync is disabled despite the frames being locked below the monitor's refresh rate (50-60fps).

I am not sure what the problem is. I know of the phenomon of screen tearing and this definately is not that; it clearly is stuttering to the extent of frame skipping. This exact problem was explored here: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1646309

The following video provided by user adrift02 shows the problem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X86bHg3ORjw

Games to note that I have tested this in:
Just cause 2
Starcraft 2
Battlefield 3
Mount and Blade
minecraft (teehee)
Witcher 2

I can max out all of these games and have solid 'smoothness' when vysnc is forced on along with tripple buffering; but when disabled...the horror...THE HORROR!!!

I really dont know what to do anymore...Is my monitor the culprit for not refreshing fast enough forcing GPU to hold back frames to the extent of this. If this were the case; why when vysnc is disabled and I force frames down to 50-60 the stuttering still occurs. Or are both my GPU's faulty for not being able to render and send frames in a correct order? I'm not much of an expert on this so please feel free to highlight the 'obvious' and 'stupid' in what I'm saying.

If my monitor is the culprit then that'll be great; easy fix. Has anyone experienced this and found a solution? If anyone can give me there two cents on the matter I'll be very grateful!

Thanks very much!

Michael.M

 

[Frito]

well having vsync off will cause the tearing i see in that video you linked, i see the studder as well and its probably from SLI/CFX if he is running that. otherwise my suggestion is lower your graphics settings/turn of AA and see if it goes away.

of the games you listed you have tried the only one i play is BF3 and with my 560 Ti SLI setup i do not experience any studdering in multiplayer but i do not try to run high graphics settings because my main concern is that the game stays well above 60 FPS and never goes below that point, if i start to turn setttings up to the max i have experienced microstudder on my rig and its not acceptable to me. keeping the game set to low settings at 1920 x 1080 provides me with the extremely fast silky smooth performance i want and IMHO the game does not look much different on low than it does on high or ultra anyways and when your running around constantly and also using things like the IRNV scope or thermal cam on tanks how the game looks is not a big deal

 

[mmarasco]

well having vsync off will cause the tearing i see in that video you linked, i see the studder as well and its probably from SLI/CFX if he is running that. otherwise my suggestion is lower your graphics settings/turn of AA and see if it goes away.

of the games you listed you have tried the only one i play is BF3 and with my 560 Ti SLI setup i do not experience any studdering in multiplayer but i do not try to run high graphics settings because my main concern is that the game stays well above 60 FPS and never goes below that point, if i start to turn setttings up to the max i have experienced microstudder on my rig and its not acceptable to me. keeping the game set to low settings at 1920 x 1080 provides me with the extremely fast silky smooth performance i want and IMHO the game does not look much different on low than it does on high or ultra anyways and when your running around constantly and also using things like the IRNV scope or thermal cam on tanks how the game looks is not a big deal

Thankyou for your reply.

Definately nothing in to do with graphic settings; I've tried all low / medium / high and without vysnc it'll stutter.

My thinking at this point is the idea that without vysnc, the gpu is sending out frames in varying intervals resulting in the appearance choppy gameplay, this occurs mostly in SLI / CROSSFIRE setups.

However; I have tested with both cards running as single and without vysnc, the stutter still occured. My main concern and query is if this is a known problem and nothing of hardware is at fault to the extent it is faulty and must be returned to manufacturer.

I don't mind vysnc, but when majority of users I have seen are able to play without vsync with no stuttering sort of debunks my position. Furthermore, I have tested fixing frame rates at 50-60FPS below the monitor refresh rate and the stuttering still occurs; this to me suggests the GPU or other component is sending frames out in unequal intervals and thus is at fault.

So my question is if the above is 'normal' and no hardware is at fault for this; the only solution being a 120hz monitor. OR Something is at fault because despite higher FPS than the monitor refresh rate, disabling vsync should not result in stuttering across ALL games.

Cheers!

 

[TCM]

Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do that *bends arm above head to the back and scratches ass*

If I were to enable vysnc, the stuttering is gone and the game runs silky smooth at locked 60FPS.

There, fixed.

For some insane reason you seem to think that 60fps is not enough and that you gain anything by running video refresh rates 1) async to and 2) above the monitor's physical refresh rate.

Hint: you don't.

Edit: If you are worried about faulty hardware, run stress tests that give verifiable negatives.

 

[Adzsask]

All your problems are from your frames hopping from 200 to 100 or less, v-sync locks it to 60, problem gone.

 

[mmarasco]

Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do that *bends arm above head to the back and scratches ass*

There, fixed.

For some insane reason you seem to think that 60fps is not enough and that you gain anything by running video refresh rates 1) async to and 2) above the monitor's physical refresh rate.

Hint: you don't.

Edit: If you are worried about faulty hardware, run stress tests that give verifiable negatives.

Thank you for your reply.

I do not mind having to enable vysnc, it certainly does have a much better visual appeal than disabled (screen tearing). My hopes are to confirm my understanding of what is occuring, ofcourse anything above 60fps is going to be dropped anyway and wont be displayed on the monitor. However many people, and I myself in the past, turn vysnc off and experience no stuttering.

The idea is there should be no stuttering. Vysnc enabled, GPU usage will be lower, say 40-50%. In a game like battlefield 3 where scenary can change from normal to absolute chaos, the jump in GPU usage is noticeable at times. Disabling vysnc improves on this as GPU is increased and thus can 'handle' the change in scenary.

From personal preference, I would like to disable vysnc across all games. What I am trying to find out and confirm if this is actually completely normal for games to appear choppy when disabling vysnc. With my past computer builds, I never had this issue and thus why I highlight it now.

Yes, vysnc is a 'solution', but then why when I cap frames below the monitor refresh rate, the stuttering still occurs. Does anyone else experience this with vysnc disabled?

Cheers!

 

[mmarasco]

All your problems are from your frames hopping from 200 to 100 or less, v-sync locks it to 60, problem gone.

Thank you for your reply.

Would you agree that this is 'normal' considering my frames jump from around 80-30. My understanding is that in multi-gpu setups, stuttering can occur because of out of sync frames being rendered. However I also tested this with a single GPU and it still occured.

My main concern is that around the internet and from personal experience, frames above the monitor refresh rate should not cause such severe stuttering when Vysnc is disabled. Or is this the norm?

 

[TCM]

Vysnc enabled, GPU usage will be lower, say 40-50%. In a game like battlefield 3 where scenary can change from normal to absolute chaos, the jump in GPU usage is noticeable at times. Disabling vysnc improves on this as GPU is increased and thus can 'handle' the change in scenary.

Exact the opposite IMHO. GPUs don't need a "warmup" where they handle sudden load better if they are already loaded.

If a GPU runs at 100% putting out 200fps and suddenly the complexity increases so that they only manage 100fps, that - in combination with wildly varying physical to video frame rate ratios - means the visual effect is less smooth than if they constantly put out 60fps perfectly in sync to the display.

Run a stress test to verify correct operation and play with vsync on. Anything else is just mindgames.

 

[Adzsask]

Thank you for your reply.

Would you agree that this is 'normal' considering my frames jump from around 80-30. My understanding is that in multi-gpu setups, stuttering can occur because of out of sync frames being rendered. However I also tested this with a single GPU and it still occured.

My main concern is that around the internet and from personal experience, frames above the monitor refresh rate should not cause such severe stuttering when Vysnc is disabled. Or is this the norm?

Yes it is normal, it is not caused by the higher then 60 FPS framerates, it is from the leaps from 80-30 FPS like you saw.

 

[Bman123]

I have had the same tearing and stutter with the past 3 pcs I've built and its my display. 3 8800gts, 1 hd4850 and 1 9800gtx all did it. At first I thought it was the video card so I kept switching, built a new pc same thing.

 

[Frito]

i personally don't get the studdering, i never run v-sync and like to play games esp multiplayer FPS games with the highest frame rates i can get. horizontal tearing comes with the territory and will always happen if your frame rate does not match your display's refresh rate because of how both display's and video cards work.

i've done extensive input lag testing on LCD displays (mainly TV's) in the past because of my desire to use a large LCD TV as a computer monitor/gaming display and its hard to find a good LCD that will do this while still looking good and have low input lag. one thing i discovered in my testing was that digital displays like LCD's contrary to popular belief refresh the image via horizontal updating of the display grid from the top of the screen to the bottom in lines. (much like CRT's do the same with their operation) the source of the tearing is because rather than seeing 1 complete frame when your moving in a game with vsync off and getting over 60 FPS you are seeing parts of each frame as the display refreshes every 16.6 ms. this is in fact one way of explaining how getting 120 fps in a game can put you at a slight advantage over your enemies because you very well might see them before they see you though i will admit that its not a big deal. it really just more or less give you the peace of mind that your system is not holding back your performance in game.

 

[adrift02]

My issue ended up being 2 things. I'll go over where I'm at, hope it helps.

Without vsync: I found the "frame skip" or "stutter" effect is actually normal (at least I've seen it on 3 completely different rigs now). As you get away from your monitor's refresh rate you'll see the skipping (60hz at 80fps for example). Once you get above ~120fps it's a non-issue. To see if your issue is the same thing try capping your fps in-game at your refresh rate and strafe across a pillar or something. Try the same at say 80fps. If it's much more choppy at 80fps that's what your seeing. I use Dxtory to set an upper limit of 60fps in games where vsync is an issue to fix this. It's also worth mentioning that forcing 60fps using dxtory (or any fps limiter) should smooth out the game (it will be like vsync but with tearing).

With vsync: I was getting stutter panning around and it was mostly triggered around light sources. This seems to be a driver issue as it's been improved in some games by messing with different versions. The light source stutter is a weird one and something I havnt fixed, thought it was AMD only tho. Also, dxtory helps this (oddly) and sometimes running in window modee.

Hope that helps in some way. Btw, I have to mention, ppl (TCM) please stop saying "just use vsync" when people have issues without it (or vice versa). There are tons of reasons why we can't use that "solution" (in many scenarios), so it's just an ignorant reply.

 

[mmarasco]

My issue ended up being 2 things. I'll go over where I'm at, hope it helps.

Without vsync: I found the "frame skip" or "stutter" effect is actually normal (at least I've seen it on 3 completely different rigs now). As you get away from your monitor's refresh rate you'll see the skipping (60hz at 80fps for example). Once you get above ~120fps it's a non-issue. To see if your issue is the same thing try capping your fps in-game at your refresh rate and strafe across a pillar or something. Try the same at say 80fps. If it's much more choppy at 80fps that's what your seeing. I use Dxtory to set an upper limit of 60fps in games where vsync is an issue to fix this. It's also worth mentioning that forcing 60fps using dxtory (or any fps limiter) should smooth out the game (it will be like vsync but with tearing).

With vsync: I was getting stutter panning around and it was mostly triggered around light sources. This seems to be a driver issue as it's been improved in some games by messing with different versions. The light source stutter is a weird one and something I havnt fixed, thought it was AMD only tho. Also, dxtory helps this (oddly) and sometimes running in window modee.

Hope that helps in some way. Btw, I have to mention, ppl (TCM) please stop saying "just use vsync" when people have issues without it (or vice versa). There are tons of reasons why we can't use that "solution" (in many scenarios), so it's just an ignorant reply.

Thankyou very much for your reply. That certainly does help alot and puts my mind at ease; thats pretty much the same scenario for me, particularly around light sources even with vysnc enabled.

As this is normal and we can only hope with future driver updates that such issues will be resolved is good to know; least there is nothing physically wrong!

Thanks very much everyone!

 

[TCM]

Btw, I have to mention, ppl (TCM) please stop saying "just use vsync" when people have issues without it (or vice versa). There are tons of reasons why we can't use that "solution" (in many scenarios), so it's just an ignorant reply.

Name one, please.

If your display is 60Hz, you gain nothing by feeding it more frames/s as we all could see in this thread. The OP himself said with vsync the game runs "silky smooth".

So I'm curious, what technical reason prevents you from using vsync?

 

[mmarasco]

I believe in terms of gaming, especially games that require 1:1 input, then vysnc can hurt it. Its a known issue that vysnc can create input lag, fast pace games like quake and UT would suffer most for this.

But to put things into perspective, its the idea of having to be 'forced' to do this. It is a known issue that affects some people but not everyone, I was hoping to figure out if this is an issue to the extent of a faulty part within the machine which can be difficult given the process of images being displayed on a screen. The following link discusses some of the benefits and pitfalls associated with Vysnc http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_9.html

So I am glad to know that others are indeed experiencing this issue and thus negates the notion of there being a fault with the system.

Cheers!

 

[adrift02]

Name one, please.

If your display is 60Hz, you gain nothing by feeding it more frames/s as we all could see in this thread. The OP himself said with vsync the game runs "silky smooth".

So I'm curious, what technical reason prevents you from using vsync?

Vsync isn't an option in games like BF3 and COD4 where it produces noticible mouse lag or mp games where your fps drops below 60fps (tripple buffering can help but it has its own issues). Also, some games like skyrim can introduce stuttering with vsync. Without vsync some games and monitors produce additional tearing. Also games like COD4 have benefits with higher fps (over 60) as you can adjust your packets and hit prediction to the higher rate, giving you a slight advantage. There's many variables at play that change whether vsync is the best option.

 

[mt2e]

Each game is different in terms of tearing, stutter, and vsync

120hz monitor will facilitate more then 60fps with vsync enabled

There's a reason Skyrim dosen't give u an option by default to disable vsync, its because without it there's tearing.

Multi-GPU stutter is also an issue.

Remember a 60hz monitor is the bottleneck for most people....60fps max viewable

u can throw 4x 580s at a 60hz monitor, fraps will tell u 200 frames but yer only actually gettin 60 to yer eyeballs....