Bookshelves for Audiophiles only?

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Coldblackice

[H]ard|Gawd
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Aug 14, 2010
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Alright, I know this topic has been beaten to death. I found a couple old discussions on it, but at risk of digging up a thread that's too old, I thought I'd repose the question --

What's the point of bookshelf speakers? Additional sound card? Can the average lay person really tell a difference, without having both systems side-by-side and hopping back and forth?

I have some Logitech Z Cinemas (I know, I know, some of you are probably wiping the spew from between your keys). I've felt like they have decently good sound (for my tastes), but lately it's felt like the sound is starting to fade away. I also loathe the USB (buggy) connection, and the fact that I nearly always have to have the volume level at 75%+ to even get hearable sound, and this is in my small 12x12 room.

I think I'm going to sell them on those negative points alone, and I'm now looking for a new set. I've been tempted by the receiver/bookshelf option as many have suggested, but the negatives are that they do seem to run a lot higher in price compared to consumer-grade BestBuy type computer speakers, and... they look HUGE! :(


I imagine I'm going to get "Well if those sound good to you, then stay with them." But part of me wants to find reason to wear the "1337 uber speaker club" badge that many of you don :) Is there really mind-blowing difference between high-end Logitech speakers vs standard bookshelf/external receiver setups?

Aghh, even as I write this, I feel like I'm being redundant and my answer lies in the myriad of past posts. I apologize for posting this; the OCD part of me hopes that there have been recent developments in sound/speaker technology :)
 
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No recent developments; a decent set of passive speakers and a receiver or external DAC + stereo amplifier were always exponentially better than 98% of multimedia speakers, and just "better" than the other 2%.

Speakers are a good investment in the sense that decent ones don't diminish in value significantly, so you can always trade/sell them to another enthusiast.
 
Ya there's a pretty significant difference between good bookshelf or powered monitor speakers and cheap multi-media speakers. Speakers are always going to be the biggest problem in your sound system (other than your room) so more money spent on them can result in larger improvements.

If you want technical details as to why I can provide some but just in general yes, they are better.

Only thing to keep in mind is that you are probably going to spend more. The reason they are better isn't magic, it is that more money buys better components and construction, and thus better sound.
 
Thanks. And how does one judge quality/value/worth in bookshelf speakers? It seems that there are a plethora more variations and types of bookshelf's than the handful of typical computer speaker system. As such, it is more difficult to find (at least as far as I've seen) a hefty base of reviews for models.

Is there a solid review site that I'm overlooking? Otherwise, how do you judge the seemingly non-mainstream bookshelfs you find on craigslist? (for the specific speaker and not just solely ranking/reviewing the company's name alone)
 
If you do not need surround sound I highly recommend some good studio monitors. They make a world of a difference and produce the most accurate sound.
 
How do we as audiophiles judge speakers?

We judge them the only way they can be judged. By going out and listening to them.

Audio is very very subjective so the only way you can really know if you will like a certain set of speakers is go to listen to them yourself.

This means going to audio stores to listen to the speakers or going to peoples homes who have offered to allow people to listen to their systems.

I went out and listened to 6 or 7 sets of speakers in my price range before I decided which ones to buy myself.
 
bart1975 said:
If you do not need surround sound I highly recommend some good studio monitors. They make a world of a difference and produce the most accurate sound.
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+1

I have a receiver + bookshelves + subwoofer. They sound fantastic, but if I were to do it over I'd get a pair of powered monitors and a sub. I have no interest in adding a center/surround speakers and the receiver takes up a big chunk of desk space.
 
Good point, Sir.

@bart -- are you referring to an actual speaker (like the KRK Studio Monitors) or the studio monitor-type of speakers?
 
@MrWolf

So is your setup not the same as a 'studio monitor' setup? From what I can tell, studio monitors also require a sub and receiver....

How would that path be different from the one you took?

(I'm guessing maybe studio monitors have a receiver built-in...?)
 
Coldblackice said:
@MrWolf

So is your setup not the same as a 'studio monitor' setup? From what I can tell, studio monitors also require a sub and receiver....

How would that path be different from the one you took?

(I'm guessing maybe studio monitors have a receiver built-in...?)
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Powered monitors have built-in amps so no receiver is needed. A subwoofer isn't a necessity for monitors or receiver + bookshelves, but most people prefer that extra punch, especially for gaming, watching movies, TV, etc.
 
Gotcha. So would monitors + a subwoofer be enough of an all-around good music/gaming setup? Would the sub connect to the monitors (like the KRK 5's), or would they have to connect to some external amp or source?

From my reading, I'm gathering that studio monitors are a waste if you don't have some kind of external audio box to connect them to... Is this true? If so, could a consumer grade soundcard do the same job?

I understand paying more for a setup like this compared to the Logitech route, but if it takes $200-$300 for speakers alone, plus hundreds more for a sub and soundcard/receiver... I think I might be in over my head!
 
Mr. Wolf said:
+1

I have a receiver + bookshelves + subwoofer. They sound fantastic, but if I were to do it over I'd get a pair of powered monitors and a sub. I have no interest in adding a center/surround speakers and the receiver takes up a big chunk of desk space.
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Mr. Wolf, the problem with a sub + studio monitor combination is that you don't get the bass management or room acoustics management that a modern receiver gives you. No, not everyone needs those things, but I've had so much trouble getting subwoofers to integrate into my room that I want all the help I can get.

coldblackice, what's your budget? What existing audio equipment do you own?
 
I am currently using a pair of M-Audio Studio pro 3 on this system. They are really small studio monitors that sound really large. I have a pair of Yamaha HS50M hooked up to the TV in the living room. I have no need for a subwoofer.
 
450, by bass/room management, do you mean a receiver's ability to "autotune" the sound according to the room's size and acoustics? Can you define your trouble in integrating subs into your room? My non-audiophile mind can't fathom what that specific trouble might be, only imagining it being an issue of adjusting sub volume up or down (I hope it's not having to adjust freq values in an equalizer one-by-one... yuck!)

My budget is about $200, maybe a smidgen over to stretch for something. I'm by no means an audiophile, only caring for 192-320kbps music, movies, and gaming.

I don't have enough deskspace for all the children of africa; in fact, I'm quite limited. I can fit a hefty sub underneath my desk, and could make fit some monitors on top. If a standard receiver is as wide as I'm imagining (like the big, wide black DVD-playerish boxes), I think that might be a bit overboard for space and size-wise.

Also, I'd prefer to not have to adjust or fine-tune values like individual frequency ranges and the such. Mostly because I don't have the ear for it, and it's only going to crush my self confidence :) Besides the shortcomings mentioned above, I've relativey enjoyed my Logitech Z Cinemas sound system and plug-and-forget style. The notion of equalizing your own sound based on what you're doing on the computer (music, gaming, movies) would drive me crazy -- I would never know what's "right" or "better" and the infinte configuration of possibilties would drive me crazy, especially have to do it for a bunch of different settings.


EDIT: Price is obviously taking into account used gear pricing, and especially 'good' used pricing at that.
 
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450 said:
Mr. Wolf, the problem with a sub + studio monitor combination is that you don't get the bass management or room acoustics management that a modern receiver gives you. No, not everyone needs those things, but I've had so much trouble getting subwoofers to integrate into my room that I want all the help I can get.

coldblackice, what's your budget? What existing audio equipment do you own?
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I've never bothered with the Audyssey features of any receiver as I prefer to make adjustments, if any, according to what I actually hear. I tend to believe things like Audyssey are more marketing hype than anything substantive. Maybe it makes a difference with 5.1, 7.1 or 7.2 setups... but with 2.1? Not buying it.

Coldblackice - With your budget, I'd get a pair of monitors and save some more cash for a decent sub.
 
I've never bothered with the Audyssey features of any receiver as I prefer to make adjustments, if any, according to what I actually hear. I tend to believe things like Audyssey are more marketing hype than anything substantive
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So answer me this...if you never bothered with those features...how can you be so sure they are hype and that you can do it better on your own? ;)
 
Mr. Wolf said:
I've never bothered with the Audyssey features of any receiver as I prefer to make adjustments, if any, according to what I actually hear. I tend to believe things like Audyssey are more marketing hype than anything substantive. Maybe it makes a difference with 5.1, 7.1 or 7.2 setups... but with 2.1? Not buying it.

Coldblackice - With your budget, I'd get a pair of monitors and save some more cash for a decent sub.
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To be fair, my speakers are Magnepan MG1.6's, and with those, sub integration is a bit tricky.
 
450 said:
To be fair, my speakers are Magnepan MG1.6's, and with those, sub integration is a bit tricky.
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How so? Are you implying that sub integration is going to be tricky with (mostly) all studios, short of having a receiver that can "autotune" according to room acoustics?
 
Coldblackice said:
How so? Are you implying that sub integration is going to be tricky with (mostly) all studios, short of having a receiver that can "autotune" according to room acoustics?
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No. Depends on the room and speakers. My room and speakers are both hard to setup right. Having a subwoofer pre-out is also nice.

I would consider saving up for something like the Swan M50w since your budget is $200-ish.
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?p=swan-m50w&products_id=167

Those are $280. They are a 2.1 set so you don't need a receiver or anything else.

If your budget is strictly $200, then skip the subwoofer, get a used receiver and some used floorstanding or bookshelf speakers. Craigslist and Audiogon will be both your best friend and worst enemy.
 
For most of us, once you try nice speakers, it's hard to go back. I'm guessing you'll be quite happy with some high quality speakers, and holy **** does that Swan M50w look nice. :) In fact, those might be my next set.

When it comes to good speakers, people tend to focus on bass. Bass is a wonderful thing, but with good speakers you'll also get more detail and clarity, better fidelity to the source, and once properly setup in the room- excellent stereo imaging and soundstaging.

One of my favorite things is the way a good vocal will just hang in midair between the speakers, centered and maybe slightly back. Close your eyes and it sounds like someone is standing there. How do you measure that? I don't know, but I like that you-are-there effect. It's great with Tori Amos, or the ambient sounds in Stalker, and can be really holographic with classical music.
 
I will say this once and probably will have to again:

If you know your way around system setup, you probably do not need audyssey. Especially if you have high end equipment and thus are best tweaking by ear anyway.

For most, especially noobs with their first real system, audyssey is excellent. Especially for HT and gaming setups. Not so much for music.

To answer the OP. Bookshelf and component stereo systems take up more space, time and money to setup. If it is worth it to have bad ass sound to go with your rig, great. There is a point of diminishing returns but for even $100 you can have a nice little setup compared to what $100 "pc system" will get you. So you do not have to be an audiophile to appreciate getting more for the same $$.
 
shaolin95 said:
So answer me this...if you never bothered with those features...how can you be so sure they are hype and that you can do it better on your own? ;)
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I'll trust what I hear over what a receiver tells me I should hear. Works for me.

Yo, spaceman! Haven't seen you around here in a long time!! :D
 
Mr. Wolf said:
I'll trust what I hear over what a receiver tells me I should hear. Works for me.

Yo, spaceman! Haven't seen you around here in a long time!! :D
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What's up. Been back for a bit now.

Yeah, just like you and I said. If you know what you are doing, go ahead. If not, follow instructions and use the software. No harm in it. Gives noobs a benchmark to build on.
 
Coldblackice said:
Is there really mind-blowing difference between high-end Logitech speakers vs standard bookshelf/external receiver setups?
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Yes. I was astounded at how crappy my old Logitech z-560's sounded. Heck, I even shudder at the M-Audio AV40's that are hooked up to my wife's computer.

Yes, the AV-40s are decent speakers and have much better sound quality than most computer speakers. I was so impressed by them that I yearned to trash my z-560's. So I took the plunge and went bookshelf / receiver & sub. Wow.

My bookshelf speakers rival the sound quality of my Polk RTi 8 tower speakers on my home theater.

Mind you, I spent $180 on the speakers, $120 on a used onkyo receiver and $170 on the subwoofer (rebadged HSU 10" 150w sold by parts-express) for a grand total of $470. So yeah, it should sound better than the $140 M-Audio studio monitors.

It is well worth it. Your primary method of interaction with a computer are sight, sound and touch. Thankfully they haven't released the usb odor replicators yet.

Don't skimp on your LCD, keyboard, mouse or speakers. it's how you interact with the computer.
 
Shucks, I thought I was onto something after looking at the smorgasbord of good reviews for the MV40s on amazon. :)

Ok well I guess I'm sold on jumping ship from the logitech-style speakers. Is there a general consensus here on studio moniotrs vs bookshelves/receiver setups? And for either of those two parties.... do you recommend getting a beefy soundcard to go with either of the setups?

I'm of the mindset that I'd rather buy gadgets that are fairly mainstream enough that I'll be able to easily resell them down the line when I upgrade (even if it means having to pay a bit more up front)
 
Studio monitors don't require a receiver to power them (generally) since they are all active. They are an easier setup to use. Studio monitors also try to accurately reproduce the music in the shape is was originally made - this means no "bass boost xtremez". They may sound harsh to most people.

You do not need a fancy soundcard for a bookshelf/receiver combo, just a way to connect pc -> receiver which can be done by most motherboard's digital outlets.

I will suggest for you to go here some speakers. Go to Guitar Center and listen to some monitors. Then find some local owners who own some bookshelves in your budget and listen to them.

I ditched the Logitech boat a few years ago, got some studio monitors (KRK Rokit 5s), and now I am trying to sell them and get bookshelves. The bookshelves I want sound the best to my ear (for my budget) and will be something I can own for a long, long time.
 
I've always felt the built-in amps in powered monitors insufficient and tends to produce more tweeter hiss compared to a decent receiver.
 
dragonhawke said:
I've always felt the built-in amps in powered monitors insufficient and tends to produce more tweeter hiss compared to a decent receiver.
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Then it's quite obvious you've only heard generic desktop powered computer speakers or very cheap studio monitors.

I would choose powered studio monitors over passive hi-fi speakers for my PC in a small-medium office any day.. if i had £2000 to spend... (Genelec 8030A + Genelec 7050B). However if sitting back on the sofa listening to music or watching music i would instantly turn to receiver + passive.
 
personally after hearing how much better separates can be.id have a hard time going back to a receiver.so i say preamp,and power amp all the way.
 
Yeah if you think about it, compared to what is required of a full receiver, for the same price I imagine in theory you get a better amplifier in stand alone powered monitors. It's essentially like having a pair of monoblocks. Of course, mounting an amplifier inside of a speaker cabinet also has it's downsides, but at that point you are getting into splitting hairs...
 
Rossi~ said:
Then it's quite obvious you've only heard generic desktop powered computer speakers or very cheap studio monitors.

I would choose powered studio monitors over passive hi-fi speakers for my PC in a small-medium office any day.. if i had £2000 to spend... (Genelec 8030A + Genelec 7050B). However if sitting back on the sofa listening to music or watching music i would instantly turn to receiver + passive.
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OPs budget is $3200+? Didn't know that. Interesting.

I've heard the Genelec 1030s at a guitar center and they do have some noticeable hiss. But they were *only* $1200 so they are obviously the "cheap studio monitors" that you alluded to. I have to admit I have never heard the fabulous 8030As.

Personally I've never owned anything beyond the Dynaudio BM5As, which I got for only $800, so again, nothing but cheap monitors. You are very right; I know very little about quality monitors.
 
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dragonhawke said:
OPs budget is $3200+? Didn't know that. Interesting.

I've heard the Genelec 1030s at a guitar center and they do have some noticeable hiss. But they were *only* $1200 so they are obviously the "cheap studio monitors" that you alluded to. I have to admit I have never heard the fabulous 8030As.

Personally I've never owned anything beyond the Dynaudio BM5As, which I got for only $800, so again, nothing but cheap monitors. You are very right; I know very little about quality monitors.
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Troll hard much jeeze?...
 
Nihsnek said:
Studio monitors don't require a receiver to power them (generally) since they are all active. They are an easier setup to use. Studio monitors also try to accurately reproduce the music in the shape is was originally made - this means no "bass boost xtremez". They may sound harsh to most people.

You do not need a fancy soundcard for a bookshelf/receiver combo, just a way to connect pc -> receiver which can be done by most motherboard's digital outlets.

I will suggest for you to go here some speakers. Go to Guitar Center and listen to some monitors. Then find some local owners who own some bookshelves in your budget and listen to them.

I ditched the Logitech boat a few years ago, got some studio monitors (KRK Rokit 5s), and now I am trying to sell them and get bookshelves. The bookshelves I want sound the best to my ear (for my budget) and will be something I can own for a long, long time.
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Just picked up these exact ones from Best Buy (KRK 5's). I think they sound terrible :/ Granted, I knew that they were designed to sound flat, and it's probably because I don't have a beefy sound card, and maybe even crappy cables, and maybe because now I'm sub-less (and have been used to having a nice bump of boost with music/games).

dragonhawke said:
I've always felt the built-in amps in powered monitors insufficient and tends to produce more tweeter hiss compared to a decent receiver.
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I'm also hearing a lot of hiss from these KRK's. Bleh. Maybe I'm just not grown up enough to appreciate their specialized use and flatness.

pharoah said:
personally after hearing how much better separates can be.id have a hard time going back to a receiver.so i say preamp,and power amp all the way.
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And it doesn't help the (KRK's) cause that this is the amount of mouse room I'm left with :)




Well.... aren't the Klipsch Promedia's pretty highly recommended around here (second to bookshelfs)?

Really appreciate your guys guidance and help on this, but would you mind suggesting some bookshelfs/receivers with fairly high resale value? Used pricing, I'm looking at $200-$300 total, the higher end being more resellable and original investment-recoupable.
 
Rossi~ said:
Troll hard much jeeze?...
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I doubt very few people would share your position. More likely the other way around.

I shared my experience on powered monitors in the OP's budget range, and out of the blue you interject:

1) tell me I've never listened to anything good
2) then list a $3200 setup as an example of "what's good"

When the OP has stated at $200 budget. And then when I explain to you I have heard what I consider are decent monitors, you call me a troll instead of responding with a post of substance?

Good luck finding some one who sides with you there. I'm afraid you fit the textbook definition of a troll yourself.
 
He is hearing how shitty the source of his sound is.

This means upgrade your soundcard at the very least. I would go with an external dac with optical or usb input and rca out for the speakers. That will kill the hiss, lower the noisefloor and sound much better.
 
spaceman said:
He is hearing how shitty the source of his sound is.

This means upgrade your soundcard at the very least. I would go with an external dac with optical or usb input and rca out for the speakers. That will kill the hiss, lower the noisefloor and sound much better.
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Yep, probably that and maybe connectors/cables. Just use monoprice RCAs with a decent soundcard or DAC, and it should be pretty flat. Might want to try some speaker stands or isolators, too. Having heard the KRK 6 a good amount, they don't hiss on their own.
 
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