A Look into the Chinese Cyber-Invasion

Terry Olaes

I Used to be the [H] News Guy
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
4,646
Popular Science has an article that takes a detailed look into history of China’s hacker attacks on the US. Hackers are to Chinese kids as athletes are to American kids. Pretty crazy stuff.

Hackers are pervasive, their imprint inescapable. There are hacker magazines, hacker clubs and hacker online serials. A 2005 Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences survey equates hackers and rock stars, with nearly 43 percent of elementary-school students saying they "adore" China's hackers. One third say they want to be one.
 
The US spent the last hundred years idolizing the idiot that grabs a ball and runs for the other end of the field.

Is it really surprise to anyone that the US is losing ground in pretty much every way possible? The neanderthal running around on a field with a ball isn't going to acheive much in life, but you can be damn sure he'll get pile of money from a college to go run around on their field. Heaven forbid America promote intellectual acheivement. :rolleyes:
 
The US spent the last hundred years idolizing the idiot that grabs a ball and runs for the other end of the field.

Is it really surprise to anyone that the US is losing ground in pretty much every way possible? The neanderthal running around on a field with a ball isn't going to acheive much in life, but you can be damn sure he'll get pile of money from a college to go run around on their field. Heaven forbid America promote intellectual acheivement. :rolleyes:

you're going to get flamed for this, but man i think that's one of the best posts i've read here in awhile
 
Half of the intelligent people from my hometown realise that the entire educational system there bases itself around promoting people in sports. The fees the rack up are enormous; looking at the schools and their performance, however, is another story. Seriously, the district is cutting about a third of its budget, and guess what is staying intact? Not music programs, but primary school athletics. Jesus.
 
you're going to get flamed for this, but man i think that's one of the best posts i've read here in awhile

This is a tech forum, not a sports forum. He'll be fine. To take it a step further, why are people being fake (actors) idolized more than people who actually make a difference (doctors/engineers)?

Just a sad statement of society overall.
 
Chinese hackers hack US institutions and get jobs and contracts. US hackers hack US institutions and get jobs and contracts.
Chinese hackers hack Chinese institutions and get arrested/shot. US hackers hack Chinese institutions and get a bunch of wasted time.
 
The US spent the last hundred years idolizing the idiot that grabs a ball and runs for the other end of the field.

Is it really surprise to anyone that the US is losing ground in pretty much every way possible? The neanderthal running around on a field with a ball isn't going to acheive much in life, but you can be damn sure he'll get pile of money from a college to go run around on their field. Heaven forbid America promote intellectual acheivement. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, Canada spends most of its citizens money to pay for those who does not want to go to school and become systematically dependent upon the tax payers. Heaven forbid Canada promote intellectual achievement.

PS. you misspelled achievement.


You can extract that from everything. There are some of us here who refuses to pay premiums to watch any sport and refuse to buy into these endorsements. I particularly could care less for sports and believe that chasing a ball for millions or dollars is absurd.
 
The US spent the last hundred years idolizing the idiot that grabs a ball and runs for the other end of the field.

Is it really surprise to anyone that the US is losing ground in pretty much every way possible? The neanderthal running around on a field with a ball isn't going to acheive much in life, but you can be damn sure he'll get pile of money from a college to go run around on their field. Heaven forbid America promote intellectual acheivement. :rolleyes:
Bitter any? Guessing you didn't win a Heisman in college? Seeing people react quickly under pressure is fascinating to most of the population.

Yes, lets admire the parisites that harm the rest of productive society. They're a far better target for adulation! :rolleyes:

This is a tech forum, not a sports forum. He'll be fine. To take it a step further, why are people being fake (actors) idolized more than people who actually make a difference (doctors/engineers)?

Just a sad statement of society overall.
Because we actually see them act. If I saw a doctor doing something crazy like taking part of someone's stomach to use as the sack for their gall bladder every week, I'd be idolizing them too! There are reality shows on this as well...
 
Nemesis has a great point though... when was the last time there was an American show glorifying teachers? Welcome Back Kotter? 30 years ago, eh? Intellectual ability is likely to be the only one with any substantive cache' in the world we're heading towards.
 
On the other hand, Canada spends most of its citizens money to pay for those who does not want to go to school and become systematically dependent upon the tax payers. Heaven forbid Canada promote intellectual achievement.

I'd personally like to know what thought process brought you from "Having an education system that cares more about sports then educations is retarded" to "Hey, let's all act like this country that was never named in the post and has nothing to do with the topic."

Really, I'd like to know how you made that leap.

PS. you misspelled achievement.

Congratulations, would you like another troll-cookie? There's a nice big red line below it. Had I actually given a fuck about fixing the typo I would have right clicked on it and done so.

You can extract that from everything. There are some of us here who refuses to pay premiums to watch any sport and refuse to buy into these endorsements. I particularly could care less for sports and believe that chasing a ball for millions or dollars is absurd.

I honestly couldn't care less what people want to pay to watch people run around. It's their own money to waste however they please. On the other hand, my tax or tuition dollars directly or indirectly being spent to pay for yet another Forest Gump to get an "education" is quite absurd.


Yes, lets admire the parisites that harm the rest of productive society. They're a far better target for adulation! :rolleyes:

Huh? Are you smoking something? The intellectuals are the leeches? Last time I checked they're the ones that moved the world forward. If the athletes were in charge we'd still be trying to figure out fire. Though I guess if you actually believe that the intellectuals are the leaches then we know which group you belong to.

Last time I checked the moron running around with a ball while a little bit of everyone else's money pays their tuition is the leech.

Because we actually see them act. If I saw a doctor doing something crazy like taking part of someone's stomach to use as the sack for their gall bladder every week, I'd be idolizing them too! There are reality shows on this as well...
...

And your point? You seem to be trying to justify the idiotic nature of the system. I really don't care WHY people are amused by people running in circles, it's still moronic to have an education system focus on non-education.
 
I'd personally like to know what thought process brought you from "Having an education system that cares more about sports then educations is retarded" to "Hey, let's all act like this country that was never named in the post and has nothing to do with the topic."

I made the leap by just viewing your profile and seeing that you were Canadian. Perhaps you should make gross assumptions only when being aware that your assumptions are based from the other side of the fence. Your post has nothing to do with the subject either.

Congratulations, would you like another troll-cookie? There's a nice big red line below it. Had I actually given a fuck about fixing the typo I would have right clicked on it and done so.

Big red line? Oh, you mean you use spelling assist. Nice. The troll cookie is all yours, you don't see me attacking countries I don't belong to out of the blue that has no relevance to the actual subject. But hey, nice bashing America... you must be pissed that just a few miles south of you, we enjoy low taxes and great living.

I honestly couldn't care less what people want to pay to watch people run around. It's their own money to waste however they please. On the other hand, my tax or tuition dollars directly or indirectly being spent to pay for yet another Forest Gump to get an "education" is quite absurd.

Well since you don't live in America that is not your problem to decide. But yet you seem quite passionate about how we deal with our own taxes?

We are still one of the lowest taxed nations in the world and yet the most powerful and you are in a high taxed nation, and you are worried what we spend our taxes on?!
 
Yeah I dunno what's going on, but Front Page News has a big problem with people polarizing their views and using ideological straw man nonsense. I mean it's one thing to see a noobie make borderline troll posts. But I'm seeing guys with far longer posting histories who should know better.
 
I'd personally like to know what thought process brought you from "Having an education system that cares more about sports then educations is retarded" to "Hey, let's all act like this country that was never named in the post and has nothing to do with the topic."

Really, I'd like to know how you made that leap.



Congratulations, would you like another troll-cookie? There's a nice big red line below it. Had I actually given a fuck about fixing the typo I would have right clicked on it and done so.



I honestly couldn't care less what people want to pay to watch people run around. It's their own money to waste however they please. On the other hand, my tax or tuition dollars directly or indirectly being spent to pay for yet another Forest Gump to get an "education" is quite absurd.




Huh? Are you smoking something? The intellectuals are the leeches? Last time I checked they're the ones that moved the world forward. If the athletes were in charge we'd still be trying to figure out fire. Though I guess if you actually believe that the intellectuals are the leaches then we know which group you belong to.

Last time I checked the moron running around with a ball while a little bit of everyone else's money pays their tuition is the leech.


...

And your point? You seem to be trying to justify the idiotic nature of the system. I really don't care WHY people are amused by people running in circles, it's still moronic to have an education system focus on non-education.

While I don't necessarily agree with it, (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), universities, like many other establishments, are run for profit. For a large school, sports account for a large portion of the university's income, so it only makes sense that they would want to attract talented athletes.
 
While I don't necessarily agree with it, (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), universities, like many other establishments, are run for profit. For a large school, sports account for a large portion of the university's income, so it only makes sense that they would want to attract talented athletes.

Sports are huge business and its incredibly lucrative for colleges, hence the reason why colleges are able to afford multimillion dollar facilities and sports complexes. It's a huge part of business that associates itself with high paid players.

While I don't think anyone here can justify the salaries or pay, the bottom line is that they are being payed this much because that is what the industry feel what it's worth.
 
I made the leap by just viewing your profile and seeing that you were Canadian.

I suggest some reading.


Perhaps you should make gross assumptions only when being aware that your assumptions are based from the other side of the fence.
I have no clue what you're trying to say here. What fence? Assumptions about the US? That country where I lived the first 26 years of my life? That country where I currently live? :rolleyes: Again, had I given a damn about my profile, I would have updated it. Had I been in any way, shape, or form been discussing Canada, I would have mentioned it.

Your post has nothing to do with the subject either.
The news article is about Chinese hackers. I pointed out that the Chinese system very strongly promotes academic achievement and the advantage that provides. Seems pretty linked to me.


Big red line? Oh, you mean you use spelling assist. Nice.

Duh yuh I r cant spellz with te defalt spelchakar. I haf to turn it onn ur I spall like thas.

Idiot.

The troll cookie is all yours, you don't see me attacking countries I don't belong to out of the blue that has no relevance to the actual subject.

On the other hand, Canada spends most of its citizens money to pay for those who does not want to go to school and become systematically dependent upon the tax payers. Heaven forbid Canada promote intellectual achievement.

Duhurururur. Moron. The topic was China. I contrasted the US system against the Chinese. you brought up a third, and completely unrelated country.

You seem intelligent enough to process some basic information, which leaves you as either a purposeful troll, or simply another angry internet douche. Either way, welcome (back) to the ignore list. Go dump your emo nerd-rage on someone else.
 
While I don't necessarily agree with it, (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), universities, like many other establishments, are run for profit. For a large school, sports account for a large portion of the university's income, so it only makes sense that they would want to attract talented athletes.

High schools? Elementary schools? I assure you, plenty of tax dollars gets wasted on the 99.9% that never go anywhere with it and end up bagging my groceries.
 
You seem intelligent enough to process some basic information, which leaves you as either a purposeful troll, or simply another angry internet douche. Either way, welcome (back) to the ignore list. Go dump your emo nerd-rage on someone else.

Had your post actually indicated what you said, I would have agreed to you. But you basically said that America idolizes these "neanderthals" (your words) as if we are all idolizing them. I took your post as a upside attack.

I'm on a lot of ignore lists, color me surprised.
 
High schools? Elementary schools? I assure you, plenty of tax dollars gets wasted on the 99.9% that never go anywhere with it and end up bagging my groceries.

Dude, don't bag on grocery baggers, or anyone that takes a job neither you nor I would like to have. They make our lives easier by doing the things that would otherwise detract from out time spent on other pursuits. We need people to do manual labor if we are to continue enjoying our current lifestyles.

Determining what's wasteful is an entirely subjective assessment, and while I believe that plenty of schools spend way more on athletics than I would prefer, athletic programs are not without their merits. For many students (this is true for my school, at least), sports give them an incentive to do well in their studies (the football coaches will bench you if you don't maintain at least a 70 in every course). For some, this could be the difference between learning a fair amount and dropping out. In one case, you've got a guy that should be capable of plenty of work, including business-related careers; in the other case, you've got a guy that's almost guaranteed to receive some sort of financial assistance if not live solely on government dole. I prefer the second situation.
 
I suggest some reading.



I have no clue what you're trying to say here. What fence? Assumptions about the US? That country where I lived the first 26 years of my life? That country where I currently live? :rolleyes: Again, had I given a damn about my profile, I would have updated it. Had I been in any way, shape, or form been discussing Canada, I would have mentioned it.


The news article is about Chinese hackers. I pointed out that the Chinese system very strongly promotes academic achievement and the advantage that provides. Seems pretty linked to me.




Duh yuh I r cant spellz with te defalt spelchakar. I haf to turn it onn ur I spall like thas.

Idiot.





Duhurururur. Moron. The topic was China. I contrasted the US system against the Chinese. you brought up a third, and completely unrelated country.

You seem intelligent enough to process some basic information, which leaves you as either a purposeful troll, or simply another angry internet douche. Either way, welcome (back) to the ignore list. Go dump your emo nerd-rage on someone else.

You seem to be a much bigger douchebag than the guy you're arguing with, just sayin'.
 
Dude, don't bag on grocery baggers, or anyone that takes a job neither you nor I would like to have.

No, it really isn't. I did it in my teens for a year, it sucked (and that was when 100% of the money was disposable income) That's precisely the point though. If you want to train people to bag groceries then their are much more efficient ways then several years of high-school with a major in football. (Like... no training at all).

There will always be grocery baggers. Be it (among so many others) a lack of ambition, or intellect, or education, or a disability, or good old fashioned bad luck, there will always be people to do the job.

They make our lives easier by doing the things that would otherwise detract from out time spent on other pursuits. We need people to do manual labor if we are to continue enjoying our current lifestyles.

True, but lets face it, if there was ever a real shortage of people to bag groceries we all know that some engineers would design a functional sorting machines that used the entries into the register to determine how to bag groceries.

Necessity is the mother of invention. We don't have grocery bagging machines because people will do it for minimum wage, not because we are incapable of doing it at a reasonable cost. If Walmart was paying 100% more for their labor (Which is nothing but some more benefits, $5-6/hr more, and the associated taxes) then you would very quickly see new Walmarts opening with automated bagging.


Determining what's wasteful is an entirely subjective assessment, and while I believe that plenty of schools spend way more on athletics than I would prefer, athletic programs are not without their merits. For many students (this is true for my school, at least), sports give them an incentive to do well in their studies (the football coaches will bench you if you don't maintain at least a 70 in every course).

There's intent, and then there is reality. The government seems to be flooded with people that can't distinguish the difference. Intent is meaningless. There are a dozen people of influence over any particular student to "help" them meet their goals. Even if it's something as simple giving that extra half-mark here or there. I've seen a lot of really stupid people almost precisely meet their requirements, while remaining completely oblivious to what they're supposed to be learning.

For some, this could be the difference between learning a fair amount and dropping out. In one case, you've got a guy that should be capable of plenty of work, including business-related careers.

But why should I pay for it? That's the whole issue. You don't need a 10,000 person stadium to play sports. You especially don't need it at the expense of investment in teachers and books and all the other supplies that schools chronically run low on. I strongly support strong government assistance in education. I see it as an investment in a resource, skilled workers. What I don't support is cutting the funding of actual education to support new toys for recreation.


in the other case, you've got a guy that's almost guaranteed to receive some sort of financial assistance if not live solely on government dole. I prefer the second situation.

If someone really can't cut it in high school then the reaction should be to push some other kind of education. There are plenty of jobs that require training, but not necessarily a high-school diploma. Dumping cash on them and generating and atmosphere that nudges up their marks to help them skim through is not the solution. It is a waste of money. If they want extraordinary funding then they should start collecting donations and selling tickets. It's not education, and it's not what my taxes should be spent on.
 
you must be pissed that just a few miles south of you, we enjoy low taxes and great living.

Oh I couldn't pass this up, US has no national health care system like the rest of the industrialized world, US is hated (and for good reason) by most of the world currently due to bullshit conflicts like Iraq, and where's this great living you spiel about? The economy sucks right now, but feel free to give a spiel and wave your little laughable American flag lapel pin and be ignorant of the truth.
 
Dude, don't bag on grocery baggers, or anyone that takes a job neither you nor I would like to have. They make our lives easier by doing the things that would otherwise detract from out time spent on other pursuits. We need people to do manual labor if we are to continue enjoying our current lifestyles.

We need to mechanize these types of jobs. For example, I can't understand why we need people to take toll at major bridges, like the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco. We should encourage technology and advancements like fastTrack and other automations. Would probably lower bridge tolls at least a little...

The problem is that way too many people these days are graduating with degrees in areas like "Mass Communications" and "political science." What we need are engineers, physical scientists, computer scientists, mathematicians, etc. The government should encourage this by offering scholarships to anyone who attends a university and graduates in one of these majors..
 
Oh I couldn't pass this up, US has no national health care system like the rest of the industrialized world, US is hated (and for good reason) by most of the world currently due to bullshit conflicts like Iraq, and where's this great living you spiel about? The economy sucks right now, but feel free to give a spiel and wave your little laughable American flag lapel pin and be ignorant of the truth.

Anyone with a goodjob still has health insurance...and the job situation is no where as bad as other places like Spain where there is already a 17% unemployment. Overall, the economy is really not doing all that horrible so please stop making ignoring blanket statements like "economy sucks.." And most of the world would find other reasons to hate America if not for the war in Iraq anyway (underdeveloped countries especially in the middle east that rely on oil revenue and where unemployment is generally high have to point their problems elsewhere ...so naturally they will point at the richer west)
 
On the other hand, Canada spends most of its citizens money to pay for those who does not want to go to school and become systematically dependent upon the tax payers.
False.
I do enjoy thinkly veiled attacks on Canadian social programs, especially comming from Americans who have just dumped how many billion tax payers dollars into a "stimulus plan". Something like 10% of the total stimulus package is going to pay for American social programs like Medicaid.
 
chinese hacking - now with more death penalty! (only if its against the chinese... otherwise its free game!)
 
Oh I couldn't pass this up, US has no national health care system like the rest of the industrialized world,
Which demonstrates that you are not aware of the pro's and cons of each system, either that or you're disregardng some facts inconvenient to your line of thinking.

The US ranks highly with the most advanced medical care, comparative short wait times for access to that care, and low unemployment rates historically speaking which means that most people have coverage and quick access to all that fancy medical care.

Is the US system perfect? Of course not, but it's hard to argue with it's successes over the years either. And what's a good way to measure medical or technological success you ask? By the number of patents filed every year. That chart will give a you a rough gauge of a country's success and ability to harness creativity, which in turn translates to even more medical advancement.
 
I like our medical system (US), except for the treating the illegals and indigent (drunk bums coming in every night for a warm place to sleep). for free part. sure insurance costs are way too high and need to be deal with, but keeping the government out of the decision making progress is always a win in my book.
 
I like our medical system (US), except for the treating the illegals and indigent (drunk bums coming in every night for a warm place to sleep). for free part. sure insurance costs are way too high and need to be deal with, but keeping the government out of the decision making progress is always a win in my book.

This is the biggest problem we have imho. I have to point out, the assumption that "anyone with a decent job" has insurance and / or "only hobo's cant get it" is false. I could make payments on a luxury vehicle for what my insurance costs. There's something wrong with that picture. For the folks who's employer pays this for them be greatful, it's expensive. And what happens if you're between jobs and get diagnosed w/ something serious? You're fucked. And who exactly decides what the definition of 'pre-existing' is? The insurance company, who you're about to cost some money......you're fucked.
Basically, there's simply isn't anyone backing up the little guy. We're at the mercy of corporate jerk-offs whom after you've paid $100's/mo. for years, get to decide go/ no go for you when the time comes. I understand people being worried about the guv. making medical desicions for them, but i don't really see much of a difference.
 
he private purchase of good health insurance will run you about as much as the monthly payments on a brand new FERRARI. :eek::rolleyes::p

But of course, clearly the avg American can run out and buy a Ferrari at the drop of a hat, everyone knows that. :cool:

Single payer National Healthcare is required to get us back into a competative position. 100% coverage of all citizens regardless of condition of pre-existing whatever. 100% Health, dental, vision, mental.

Tort reform and national Malpractice insurance is also required. It's a complex system and needs to be reorganized from start to finish.
 
We need to mechanize these types of jobs. For example, I can't understand why we need people to take toll at major bridges, like the Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco. We should encourage technology and advancements like fastTrack and other automations. Would probably lower bridge tolls at least a little...

The problem is that way too many people these days are graduating with degrees in areas like "Mass Communications" and "political science." What we need are engineers, physical scientists, computer scientists, mathematicians, etc. The government should encourage this by offering scholarships to anyone who attends a university and graduates in one of these majors..

Automation is going to seriously fuck with the economy. What does that do other than take jobs from people and give companies more money?

Most people cannot handle the science majors. I don't know when you last attended college, but I know 75% of the people in my level 1 Physics course can't handle it. Encouraging people to graduate in these majors will do 2 things: 1) piss of the people already in that major and 2) piss off the professors teaching
 
A lot of bitter people here. From people who hate people who make more money than them to people who hate people who (allegedly) don't work enough to justify their existence.

Are hypocrisy and hate the status quo sentiments of the Internets these days?
 
Automation is going to seriously fuck with the economy. What does that do other than take jobs from people and give companies more money?

Most people cannot handle the science majors. I don't know when you last attended college, but I know 75% of the people in my level 1 Physics course can't handle it. Encouraging people to graduate in these majors will do 2 things: 1) piss of the people already in that major and 2) piss off the professors teaching

Well, that's the point. We want to stop paying you guys for manual labor for a few reasons:

1 - We want you to get jobs which require thinking, to help promote science and technology. There will always be a need for science and technology, but there will not always be a need for manual labor.

2 - Automation is more efficient in the long run, and only good things come from efficiency.

Now, to respond to your argument about people being screwed, that's why there is a transition, and manual labor is slowly phased out, not cut all at once. If you can't pick up the warning bells that your manual labor job is about to be lost (ie., if you can't plan out your life, or make a good attempt), then you've failed anyway. Seek aid elsewhere. Also, to respond to your argument about people not being able to handle thinking jobs, I am very strongly willing to bet that this is because they simply don't try hard enough. Look at the attitude of students in school these days. It's not great. Some kids try, and they end up in a reasonably good position, while other kids don't, and they get what they deserve. In China, the tests for university are difficult, since you have a lot a lot of competition. If you don't make it to a good university, you're relegated to the lower social class of society, unless you can make your way out. That's life.
 
he private purchase of good health insurance will run you about as much as the monthly payments on a brand new FERRARI. :eek::rolleyes::p

But of course, clearly the avg American can run out and buy a Ferrari at the drop of a hat, everyone knows that. :cool:

Lol, well, I did not mean FERRARI when I said 'luxury vehicle'. But to put it another way, my insurance costs nearly 1/3'd of my rent. It is what it is, but that's just retarded. I just find it ironic when someone says 'we have low taxes, and our healthcare's awesome' in the same sentence, ignoring that the insurance costs out the ass.
 
The US spent the last hundred years idolizing the idiot that grabs a ball and runs for the other end of the field.

Is it really surprise to anyone that the US is losing ground in pretty much every way possible? The neanderthal running around on a field with a ball isn't going to acheive much in life, but you can be damn sure he'll get pile of money from a college to go run around on their field. Heaven forbid America promote intellectual acheivement. :rolleyes:

I agree with you on a relatively regular basis.

BUT I don't think i have ever agreed with anyone more whole heartedly than this statement right here. This is the basis for our failure as a society. I am almost in tears of joy that I was NOT the one who had to write that.

thank you :)
 
Well, that's the point. We want to stop paying you guys for manual labor for a few reasons:

1 - We want you to get jobs which require thinking, to help promote science and technology. There will always be a need for science and technology, but there will not always be a need for manual labor.

2 - Automation is more efficient in the long run, and only good things come from efficiency.

Now, to respond to your argument about people being screwed, that's why there is a transition, and manual labor is slowly phased out, not cut all at once. If you can't pick up the warning bells that your manual labor job is about to be lost (ie., if you can't plan out your life, or make a good attempt), then you've failed anyway. Seek aid elsewhere. Also, to respond to your argument about people not being able to handle thinking jobs, I am very strongly willing to bet that this is because they simply don't try hard enough. Look at the attitude of students in school these days. It's not great. Some kids try, and they end up in a reasonably good position, while other kids don't, and they get what they deserve. In China, the tests for university are difficult, since you have a lot a lot of competition. If you don't make it to a good university, you're relegated to the lower social class of society, unless you can make your way out. That's life.

While normally I'm all for kicking people to the curb and saying "Fuck you, work harder," I'm also starting to realize that if we allow a shit load of people to get really poor and jobless, there are going to be way more [dead homeless]* people out there, and I don't want to clean that mess up.

*Just referring to the idea that we're going to have a lot of people that can't sustain their own life and someone is going to have to deal with them.
 
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