Why do PC Games need to be installed anymore?

Acer_Sheep said:
look, nobody is forcing you to buy and install computer games, and of course game installation is a few mins problem and you don't need any extra skills, only write a key, and klicking next, next, next, wait for few minutes and than complete and if you still have a problem so you can read manual, visit creator's website and other more solutions.
So I don't understand why is this a problem. And the installation is only one, so after install you run game same as console and don't understand those stupid players who sold their computers and purchased consoles cause they don't want to install games first.

btw: maybe your kids don't have skill for installing cause you don't teached them and of course as I was at the age of 7 I installed OS, software and games fully without a problem and without learning something before install.

edit: the console gaming will never be better than PC gaming, I can't imagine how I will play FPSs and MMORPGs on console. I think that the consoles are for arcading/racing games but not a real 3D multiplayer games
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Actually, im an applications analyst and I enjoy trying to find ways to make software work better.. I enjoy my job quite a bit.. this is an academic debate above all. I personally don't own a console that I play (other than my NES), been a die hard PC gamer since '89 and have several hundred retail titles.

But the question the kids asked was valid and got me to thinking, hence the reason for this thread that has got you thinking.. it’s the only way positive change can be made is to put an idea out there and hash it out, pros and cons. I am really enjoying reading everyone’s answers here. This is a great debate.
 
Personally, I prefer the PC over consoles because I can make more changes to the config and settings. If I buy an older game, I have the option of really improving the visuals, audio, and other settings. If I buy a game that is very new, I still have the option to change some settings so that I can play even if the graphics are as nice.

And, with a PC I have the option to do spreadsheets, documents, web surfing, email, picture editing, audio editing, and video editing. On a console that potentially costs anywhere from 90% to 50% of the cost of my built PC, I get the option to play games as soon as I place the disc into the drive. I'm not sure if I like that 'benefit' enough to purchase a very limited feature console.
 
Litfod said:
Like a few others who have replied, I personally find discs less convenient than having a bunch of games installed (and cracked) or on Steam. I think we should be moving further away from physical media (on all formats), not relying on them even more. I can imagine consoles going that way too, especially as Microsoft work to make blu-ray obsolete by moving to net-based delivery.
It's like having a PVR vs. video cassettes.
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Not to get too far off topic, but I like the notion that another posted put on here, Flash Drive Games. I have seen some music being sold on a small flash key, I prefer the digital method for that.. But for a 2-4gb game, a USB 2.0 Based Flash Key with the entire game on-board with some space to store the save games and configuration would be a boon in my mind. I could just plug the thumb drive in and launch the title.. Want to use it on my laptop, just plug it in.. You could even have each one serial encoded so there is no more copy protection needed. (Of course, I buy all of my titles)

Just another Idea to throw out there.. There is no "Once Size Fits All" for everyone, but that is a REALLY neat idea whos time has come.
 
Another Idea is a "Thin Client" Approach.. Imagine having steam, but instead of installing the game, you only launch a front end like Citrix. The entire application is run on a High End Server using virtulization and ultra-high-end rendering hardware. You are only sending commands over the wire and receiving the audio/visuals back, instead of your PC doing any of the work. It would require ultra-low latency.. but Surely that could be solved with some software development..

no more $500 Video cards..
 
Quake 3 played off the CD just fine, and sure, the load times were a little longer than off the HD, but they weren't too bad honestly...

give it a try sometime.... its surprisingly quick.....
 
Does the WoW DVD installer take a long time for some reason, or are you referring to the online updates?
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Just the DVD installer, takes almost an hour on two PCs I have. The last time I installed WoW, I started the DVD and downloading the patch (~700MB) at just about the same time. Having learned from past mistakes of getting the patches after installing the game, this was my solution to save time. The patch was finished downloading before the DVD was done :rolleyes:
 
good luck, OP. you are not going to get much more than cynical comments from people on this forum...I agree though, the process doesnt need to be as burdensome as it is, but the PC platform offers more than just a 100% game centralized profile and because of that, it works better if the game is fully installed (reg entries and so forth allow it interact with the OS). now if the tray and play was its own little sandbox that held the computer's info and referenced that to stream and configure, it would work like a console.
 
CDs and now DVD games are become obsolete as some have stated, I would much prefer to buy my games off of Steam now as they are all contained in one window, no more cds or serials or anything else that is annoying, just download and go. So if you have faster internet then it is not a problem at all, only other downside is no way to say, sell a game once you buy it, though if you don't like it, at least you can delete it with the option of always reinstalling again just by downloading.
 
TheBluePill said:
But for a 2-4gb game, a USB 2.0 Based Flash Key with the entire game on-board with some space to store the save games and configuration would be a boon in my mind.
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It's a cool idea despite the still high cost of NAND memory, which is, according to my knowledge, currently about $3.25/GB. With the controller, casing and so on, we're talking about a very, very high distribution cost.

But, yeah, they could function like an iLok or other secure dongle. Just pop it in a USB port and go. No activation, no CD keys and no installs (and pretty fast, too).

An alternative option would be for consumers to purchase large (32GB+) USB thumb drives that could be "refilled" at Gamestop/EB Games and other retailers or perhaps even at mall kiosks (no more annoying Gamestop employees). The thumb drive could store information about the user's system as a sort of rough system requirements check before the buyer is given the option to purchase the game and the game data and usage license is uploaded to the secure portion of the dongle. Think of this as something like Steam for the less broadband-fortunate with the added capability that users could rent games.

Lots of cool ideas, but also lots of impracticalities and roadblocks.
 
Lets not forget that some newer games are already coming on multiple DVDs. I don't know about you guys, but I'd damn sure rather install than have to disc juggle (anyone remember Wing Commander 4? 6 CDs?).
 
[RCKY] Thor;1032250289 said:
Lets not forget that some newer games are already coming on multiple DVDs. I don't know about you guys, but I'd damn sure rather install than have to disc juggle (anyone remember Wing Commander 4? 6 CDs?).
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Yeah, I have WC4 on the 6 CDs and on one DVD Also... Blu Drives are under $150 for PCs now and Im seeing them in some of the $799 OEM PCs.. I figure they will have pretty good market penetration in the next 18 months.. There shouldnt be that many Multiple DVD Titles out in that space and then we will see Blu titles.. And that lends well with having un-compressed game files too.. So a win-win there..
 
phide said:
It's a cool idea despite the still high cost of NAND memory, which is, according to my knowledge, currently about $3.25/GB. With the controller, casing and so on, we're talking about a very, very high distribution cost.

But, yeah, they could function like an iLok or other secure dongle. Just pop it in a USB port and go. No activation, no CD keys and no installs (and pretty fast, too).

An alternative option would be for consumers to purchase large (32GB+) USB thumb drives that could be "refilled" at Gamestop/EB Games and other retailers or perhaps even at mall kiosks (no more annoying Gamestop employees). The thumb drive could store information about the user's system as a sort of rough system requirements check before the buyer is given the option to purchase the game and the game data and usage license is uploaded to the secure portion of the dongle. Think of this as something like Steam for the less broadband-fortunate with the added capability that users could rent games.

Lots of cool ideas, but also lots of impracticalities and roadblocks.
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Thats a heck of an idea.. a Refillable Thumb Drive.. DL straight to it or go in a game-stop or something and plug it in to a Kiosk and have it filled in Seconds.. that would actually reduce the cost...

Someone like Steam could sell them for cheap or even give them away, and tie the Drive in to your account. the Drive's SN could Soft-match the games installed on it, so no copy protection. You could then take it with you, just like a console game, plug it in any PC and use it, since it doesnt install anything.. The Liscense follows you and its always legit. Granted there are ways to "hack" things like this, its a step in the right direction if done right..
 
I swear I remember that in the old days some games could actually be ran from a CD or installed to be quicker. Even now.. when I accidentally pop a CD in the box and it brings up the menu saying 'play now'.. I always say NO, and go find the installed icon, just in case it tries loading something off the PC !

It would be nice to pop in and play, but the speed of optical media would mean longer loading times, and perhaps non customisable elements of the games.

I tend not to have a problem with installs to be honest, and cant remember the last time I ever got close to running out of HD disk space.
 
You seem to think that the future of gaming is to run the game of the CD/DVD. IMO that would be a big step backwards. It is a limited media, read only, and limited to a certain size. Not to mention, slow. I think PC games should be moving more towards digital distribution (steam or something similar). This is (IMO) more convenient than having to find CD/DVDs when I want to reinstall my games and such.

As it happens, I was considering asking the exact opposite question: Why can't you install console games? Having recently gotten a PS3 and some games, I am slightly disappointed by the long loading times, especially when I have a 60GB hard drive that could, in theory, load the data much faster.

That having been said, it would be kinda nice to eliminate the install time on games. It just seems like an insignificant problem compared to all the other work that goes into game development. Or, as my friends like to remind me when I get a bad idea: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I do think the idea of a high speed USB key like media is intriguing. I imagine there would be major concerns with piracy that would derail the idea, but it would be pretty cool.
 
ilikecake said:
I do think the idea of a high speed USB key like media is intriguing. I imagine there would be major concerns with piracy that would derail the idea, but it would be pretty cool.
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Some of the business apps we install have a USB Key with a hardware Serial Number built in that is required to run the application. If you could Tie that key's SN to the game that goes on it and to your Account, it would work.

Imagine This;

You Are Given or buy the Drive, lets say 32gb for Arguments Sake. (USB or even External SATA..)

The Drive has a Hard-Wired SN. You plug it in and it pops up a "steam like" Console or web-page. You create your account and it ties it to the Drive's SN.

You can then DL Games that are Encrypted to your Drive's SN either over the web, or in store at a Kiosk. You can fill it up, except for a 500mb Space reserved for Save Games and Configs.

You can Plug that Drive in ANY PC and it will bring up a List of the Games on it and you can use them from there, High-Speed.

Loose your Drive? Easy, Go online, Declair it lost and get a replacement and retain all of your software rights and the old key is de-activated.

____

Scenario 2 has a Retail Packaged Key with a Single Game on it, hard-Coded to that one Drive, plug and play, no account needed.

____________

This would cut Piracy by a VERY wide margin and make it more of a fringe practice..
 
Digital distribution is the future. Once we can all download at increased speeds, there will be no need for companies to waste money on physical media such as CDs, DVDs, or flash drives.

Hopefully this day comes sooner rather than later.
 
Wow BluePill, I think you are actually on to something there, if there was a way to beta this out some way, I think it would catch on be actually nicer. Again, you could probably hack these kinds of things as anything digital can be hacked, just takes time but still a really good idea.
 
Interesting idea, though the biggest problems will probably be cost and performance. Flash drives aren't exactly cheap (especially compared to digital distribution or optical disks), so who's going to pay for it? Might be difficult to convince the gamers to pay for it themselves instead of buying the disks or using Steam.

Plus, flash drive performance isn't up to par with hard disks (yet), and i'd imagine that these drives would be made as cheap as possible (otherwise it'd get really expensive should a company decide to subsidize the cost).

Research would have to go toward making it relatively uncrackable otherwise many distributors won't want to use it. In the end, you may end up having the same DRM restrictions that we have now but in a different form - maybe even worse. After all, locking down the flash hardware alone probably won't be effective enough and would require some DRM on the client computer too.
 
TheBluePill said:
You can then DL Games that are Encrypted to your Drive's SN either over the web, or in store at a Kiosk. You can fill it up, except for a 500mb Space reserved for Save Games and Configs.

You can Plug that Drive in ANY PC and it will bring up a List of the Games on it and you can use them from there, High-Speed.
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I'm wondering if you can't do this already with Steam. Install the client on some removable media and point the steamapps folder to the same drive.
Obviously you don't really want to do that with today's thumb drives, but multilayer flash and similar being used in higher end SSD drives may migrate down in price to make the transfer speeds viable.
 
go play a flash game if you dont like installing pc games. i realy dont like things made for me already, im a type of person that wants to play around things to suit my taste, in this case pc gaming. one major reason why i favour pc to console gaming is the ability to tweak and mod teh shit out of my games to match my needs. console games doesnt allow you to do that at all.

another fine example is with mobile phones. i recently switched to a htc tytn2 which is a iwnodws mobile phone and my god its liek day and night in comparison to my old N95 which is pants.

either way i dont mind the hassle because at the end of teh day i will have a product that i can configure on my own
 
I dont find it a hassle at all, when I first started gaming having to go into DOS (windows 3.1) and figure out how to open the Floppies and eventually cd rom then tell it to install somewhere on the computer was a hassle. Especially with your 5 or 6. Now though you just put the CD in and let it do everything for you, you dont even have to tell it to open the installer as its all automatic. If you want to install it somewhere else tell it then when it asks. Simple for even the hooked on phonix drop outs.

Now I do agree that it could be better, but personally I find it more of a problem to insert my console's discs and spend time loading the same thing every time. If you look at SSBB or the Final Fantasy serries that spend a fair ammount of time downloading the same files into the buffer and onto the hard drives it makes more sense to keep those files installed. I dont think consoles do it since they are not upgradable, whereas computers you can cheaply just drop in another hard drive.

I also like having my files installed in case I want to tweek them to have more fun or back them up. Discs can get scratched or broken but my bakups just sit till I need them. With Crysis I enjoy now that I have beaten the game running around with super speed that wont run out or strength that never fails having fun with all that can be done. Or in GTA games going in and making boats so fast and light you can bounce off a wave and fly across the map lol. Cannot do any of that with consoles.

Having to keep the disc in the drive is just rediculous though, all games should allow you to install and never have to bother with the disc again. One reason I like steam so much, no discs ever. And if you backup your game data no long downloading either. Games that do require cd's I just make an ISO of the required disc and run it when I need it.

Game mods and other things are much easier as mentioned here for game data. Also the console hardware is always the same, yes games do read what you have and try to optimize for your system, but some people will drop settings to improve performance in some areas while loosing something they didnt care about.
 
TheBluePill said:
Actually, im an applications analyst and I enjoy trying to find ways to make software work better.. I enjoy my job quite a bit.. this is an academic debate above all. I personally don't own a console that I play (other than my NES), been a die hard PC gamer since '89 and have several hundred retail titles.

But the question the kids asked was valid and got me to thinking, hence the reason for this thread that has got you thinking.. it’s the only way positive change can be made is to put an idea out there and hash it out, pros and cons. I am really enjoying reading everyone’s answers here. This is a great debate.
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Well, maybe the one way is possible, the game that be able to run it directly form external memory media and it's components will be installed during play time, or downloaded form network.
 
TheBluePill said:
Another Idea is a "Thin Client" Approach.. Imagine having steam, but instead of installing the game, you only launch a front end like Citrix. The entire application is run on a High End Server using virtulization and ultra-high-end rendering hardware. You are only sending commands over the wire and receiving the audio/visuals back, instead of your PC doing any of the work. It would require ultra-low latency.. but Surely that could be solved with some software development..

no more $500 Video cards..
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That would require server hardware with processing/rendering power equivalent to a gaming pc meeting reasonably playable specs for each instance of the game being run off of the server. Not reasonably possible at this point. I shudder at the cost of the hardware. I don't even want to consider the cost of the bandwidth. Personally I hate thin clients. Especially when the server is not only not in the same building, but in a different city a 3 hour drive away. So painful I want to cry at times.

Older games did allow minimal installs. DukeNukem3d for instance. With HD space being so cheap and only getting cheaper, running from the DVD or Flash drive seems more trouble than it is worth. Possible yes, but not desirable imho. $60 gets you a 250-400 gig hd, and $125 gets you a 500 gig these days if you shop around.
 
Its all about performance baby. If anyone is turned off by installing a game then they should have a console.
 
TheBluePill said:
This is baffling to me... This rant comes from an experience I had at Christmas. I bought the kids a Wii and a few games and some for their PS2. I received a couple of PC games.. After trying all of their new games over the course of the morning, the Kids wanted me to try out my new games.. I told them that It would have to wait, I didn’t have the time right now to go through all of the installs and I needed to clean up several gigs of space on my 160gb HD, as it was getting too low.. They looked at me like I was crazy..
They just got done playing 5 new games on their consoles.. why couldn’t I just fire my new games up?


Every console on the market is Plop-and-play. You Plop the disc in the drive, turn it on and you have instant satisfaction. Configuration data and saves are stored in a small file on a mem card or the consoles HD without the player seeing it. Anyone can do it.

Every PC game on the market is an exercise in patience and sometimes frustration. You plop the disc in the drive and the installer launches.. or doesn’t. the first go-around involves anywhere from 5 minutes to nearly an hour of waiting with as much as 5gb of data being transferred to your pc. Then you typically have another session of punching in a 10-20 character code. then you have to run the games configuration program and set the settings. Finally, you attempt to play the game, but if something in your system isn’t right, that just doesn’t happen without a long period of research and/or tech support.

And what does all of this Copying and install get you? 9 times out of 10 you have to have the disc in the drive anyways..


Why do we put up with all of this, a lot of consumers don’t and they now have consoles.


Why cant we insert the disc in our PC, let the program run a simple benchmark and set some basic settings in the background and make a small temp folder for all of this. Same for setting changes and user customizable data and save games.

Level loads could happen in the back ground in to a temp folder on the PC during game play, even 200mb of data could transfer in the time the title screens go by.. every console does it this way with a minimal footprint.. Bigger data that is needed for the next scene or level could slowly load to the temp folder during the current level..

There is just no reason for all of this head ache to play a game, ¾ of the games on the PC are cross platform too, those consoles don’t make you go through the same procedures. I'm not using a stack of Floppies anymore..
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Thank you for articulating the essence of everything I've been saying about consoles versus PCs from the console gamer's point of view. A console is a toy, a PC is an experience.

TheBluePill said:
Thats the Attitude that has lead to PC gaming current state of decline. Things dont need to be this complicated for the average user and that is what has become a turn-off.
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Fuck the average user.

How's that for a PC gaming philosophy?
 
To anyone claiming that the disregard of the "average" user has been the decline of the PC gaming industry, I would like to point you back to the PC gaming days of old. It has NEVER been easier of the end user to play a game.

As for myself, I like the PC gaming arena being more complicated for the simple fact that it weeds out noobs. Don't know how to click through an install? Then I don't wanna be on the same server as you.
 
Quite frankly I'd be rather mortified if I had to run everything off the disk for a pc game. Diablo 2 minimum install = fail!
 
All you need to do is play an UE3 game on a console and see why. On a pc if I run around a corner to another part of the map, I will see the environment, textures etc. While on a console, if I get to another "section" of the map (again UE3 is horrible at this, and I use it because of its popularity) all I see are objects, and no textures until I hear the jet taking off from inside my console, to load the textures.

Whereas a PC does not have to spin up a disc to load the textures.

Not to mention textures on the PC are MUCH higher resolution and look 100% better than their console counterparts.
 
Installing software is not complicated.

Anyone can put a disc in a drive and click "Next" until it is done. And if you find someone who can't, they should be playing console games.

Yes, it takes time. No, it is not complicated. The problem isn't the games, or the platform. The problem is people's obsession with instant gratification. If you lose interest or get frustrated because something because it takes more than a few seconds, you have a problem that you should address, and it has nothing to do with video games.
 
PureBooYah said:
Not installing PC games wouldn't make it better though.I honestly don't understand how people can stand console load times. I recently bought a PS3 which is my first console since the Playstation and the load times are absurd. I think they should make console games installable (which probably might happen since they're becoming more like PC's anyway)
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Those gastly load times are terrible. Then lets not forget the electric lawnmower sound coming from my right hand side.... no thanks. I live in an apartment, I don't need to constantly piss off the whole building plus the woman just because I'm changing levels at 11:30pm.


Mark_Warner said:
Installing software is not complicated.
Anyone can put a disc in a drive and click "Next" until it is done. And if you find someone who can't, they should be playing console games.
Yes, it takes time. No, it is not complicated.
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and 15 minutes now will save me 9257298572985729875927525 minutes in load times over the next 3 months. <3<3<3 installs.

Mark_Warner said:
The problem is people's obsession with instant gratification. If you lose interest or get frustrated because something because it takes more than a few seconds, you have a problem that you should address, and it has nothing to do with video games.
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I agree here 100%. The thumb drive idea is ok, but still not a perfect solution, I want it installed and as long as it can be set up in a way that BluePill has his solution for ADD gamers, thats grand. But I BETTER not have to pay more or wait longer because of it. Its bad enough that there is rarely a "bargin bin" for old PC games, they just can't be found.
 
Mark_Warner said:
Installing software is not complicated.

Anyone can put a disc in a drive and click "Next" until it is done. And if you find someone who can't, they should be playing console games.

Yes, it takes time. No, it is not complicated. The problem isn't the games, or the platform. The problem is people's obsession with instant gratification. If you lose interest or get frustrated because something because it takes more than a few seconds, you have a problem that you should address, and it has nothing to do with video games.
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Very well said and I agree totally. I think Mark hit the nail on the head there....instant gratification versus waiting an extra 5 or 10 minutes to boot up that shiny new game. The evidence for it is not only in gaming, but other aspects in life. People want things that are quick and easy -> the less work the better. I don't know about everyone else, but I've the best things are ones that take work and some time to finish i.e. putting together a nice home-cooked meal with friends/family, planning a daytrip with the GF, spending week(s) tweaking and OC'ing that new rig (I just had to throw that one in!!), etc.
 
TheBluePill said:
Actually, there is is plenty of room to multi-task file copies in the back ground on any modern computer. to state that the PC can-not copy a file from the Games Disc to the hard drive because there is already too much going on is absolutly crazy
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Yea, one would think it can be done and it has been tried on the PC. I remember I had a Dos game on cdrom called 'Fast Attack' (sub-sim) that loaded all data from cdrom instead of the HDD and every time it loaded data from the cdrom it would cause the game to stutter and pause. Not a fun way to play a game. Maybe it would be different on Windows, I don't know. Maybe Consoles have a more efficient sub-system so they don't get issues with pauses when loading data from cdrom/dvd?
 
TheBluePill said:
Again, Not really, many games are virtually identical to their console counterparts.
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In this thread, this is the only issue that truly matters.

Too often they are identical. It gets even worse when the PC version is the port.

Note to devs: my PC is not a console.
 
Personally I would not want to hear my DVD howling away and/or have to wait for the game to automatically cache 4-8GB of stuff to my drive everytime I wanted to play a game. Maybe implementing something like that for impatient folks, the mentally handicapped, or 4 year old children might be nice though. As long as it is optional. I like to install my game, image the disc, and put it away. Anything but listen to a loud ass optical drive whirr away or deal with crap load times as longs load off a disc.
 
I didn't read every single post in this thread but the OP and his supporters are going to be in a tough bind when consoles go to the installing game to hard drive format. They are going this route not the other way around.

It is already being done on the PS3 and installing games to a hard drive on a console will be a common place with the next generation consoles. There is no getting away from it, it is all about performance.

Also by installing games on the hard drive the game developers will be able to use higher resolution textures, and generally make their games look better.

Hard drive installing is here to stay, in the present and the future for all platforms.
 
Personally the PC has come a long way. I remember the days of the 386 when I had to put 12 friggin floppy discs to install and play strike commander lol Now that was brutal.
 
Well, thankfully I didn't get into the PC when they didn't have HDD's and had to load data for games from a tape drive.

Many PC games do allow you to choose a small install where only some of the data is intsalled to the HDD and the rest is read from the optical disk but in any case where I have seen that option it has always been beneficial to install the complete game to the HDD from a performance standpoint. Still, I would like to know how consoles can load driectly from optical disk without pauses and stuttering but PC's can't. There has to be something about the console hardware design that is far more efficient than a PC.
 
milkweg said:
Well, thankfully I didn't get into the PC when they didn't have HDD's and had to load data for games from a tape drive.

Many PC games do allow you to choose a small install where only some of the data is intsalled to the HDD and the rest is read from the optical disk but in any case where I have seen that option it has always been beneficial to install the complete game to the HDD from a performance standpoint. Still, I would like to know how consoles can load driectly from optical disk without pauses and stuttering but PC's can't. There has to be something about the console hardware design that is far more efficient than a PC.
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It comes from having a controlled environment to develop for. A console is a console is a console. All of them have the same latency, bandwidth, and access time in regards to their optical media access (as well as being identical in every other area). PCs do not have this level of uniformity.
 
A better question would have been, how come after installing a game do some games make you have the CD/DVD media in the drive?
 
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