U.S. Ramps Up Fight With Apple

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It looks like this case is going to drag on for a few more weeks, if not longer, as both sides present their case. Oh well, if things don't work out, there is always the John McAfee route. ;)


"Rather than assist the effort to fully investigate a deadly terrorist attack ... Apple has responded by publicly repudiating that order," prosecutors wrote in the Friday order. "Apple’s current refusal to comply with the court’s order, despite the technical feasibility of doing so, instead appears to be based on its concern for its business model and public brand marketing strategy,” prosecutors said.
 
This keeps on getting butter and butter, er better and better.

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The court has ordered Apple to create a new version of iOS that can be placed on the phone. I don't understand how the court can order a company to create a new product for the government. That seems like a huge overreach.
 
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If the DOJ wins, then I think Apple and Google will introduce encryption on their products they can even break. Then our next pres and congress will ban encryption, and blah, blah, blah, blah cause 'for the children.' I swear if people just saw any information encrypted as literally documents that were burned or shredded beyond recovery (think Enron) then this is a non-issue. If it were open source encryption, the DOJ would have no company to blame.
 
I support Apple in them telling the gubrment to eff off. If the government wants good encryption for there stuff without a vendor backdoor, then they can let vendors encrypt their products without a gubrment back door.
 
I hope if Apple loses they "accidentally" wipe the phone, their modded firmware and all documented code. "Oooops. Sorry FBI. We done goofed."
 
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And the court only started telling Apple how to do the job after Apple said that they could pull it off but they didn't want to. Actually, Apple even told the court that this is one of the ways they might have to do it. Furthermore, you don't have to remake a whole new product, just do what they already do but for a single phone, modify the code as a patch and push it to the phone in their development lab. Oh, and it's not a product to begin with, you sell products, this one they'll have to give away.

Shotglass01, encrypted files are not beyond recovery, they are just data at rest and if you needed those encrypted files to prove your own medical malpractice case after a doctor fucked up your back you'd be talking a little different I think.

Shotglass01, encryption isn't the issue, it's unlocking the phone. It's something Apple has done many times in the past but recently they are refusing, it's not even the first case they have refused but this one is a little different.

The dead guy wasn't the phone's owner. The phone actually belongs to San Bernadine County who has given their permission to have Apple unlock it. Apple doesn't stand a chance in this case and if they slam this one through before the other one they'll loose that one to just because. The owner of the phone who pays the bill wants their phone unlocked and all the public opinion in the world isn't going to help Tim Cook beat it. Not this one.
 
If they think it is technical feasible why don't they do it themselves. Oh right because they don't want to be accused of violating people's privacy.
What is more sad is the politicians falling over themselves to pile on Apple to show how tough they are on terrorists.
 
If they think it is technical feasible why don't they do it themselves. Oh right because they don't want to be accused of violating people's privacy.
What is more sad is the politicians falling over themselves to pile on Apple to show how tough they are on terrorists.

They think it's technically feasible cause Apple told them that they could do it, and how, which is exactly what the Judge has now asked Apple to do.

And they don't have to worry about privacy cause the owner of the phone gave their permission for Apple to go ahead and unlock it.
 
Shotglass01, encrypted files are not beyond recovery, they are just data at rest and if you needed those encrypted files to prove your own medical malpractice case after a doctor fucked up your back you'd be talking a little different I think.

Shotglass01, encryption isn't the issue, it's unlocking the phone. It's something Apple has done many times in the past but recently they are refusing, it's not even the first case they have refused but this one is a little different.

Yep, saw your other post, daughter notwithstanding, I would agree they could do an unlock. If it is truly encrypted then no, I'd disagree. Cause we're able to do that today and DOJ couldn't force us to cough up a password if we really didn't want to.
 
Here is a very well written article on the subject it like myself, he seems to be most concerned with the applicability of the All Writs Act. Yet still, from what I have read, this is the same justification the government has used everytime and Apple has complied to the same type of court orders based on this same All Writs Act so that doesn't sound like it's going to hold up either.

This guy is a much calmer writer then I am ;)
Preliminary thoughts on the Apple iPhone order in the San Bernardino case (Part 1)


I wonder if he get's paid more than I do?
 
What you are missing is what the FBI is asking for.. They are asking for a tool that will let them unlock any iPhone at any time they want.. And once that is made if you think that tool will only be used for this one case and will never get in the bad guys hands you are kidding yourself. The FBI CAN access the data WITHOUT apple's help, yes it is a bit harder and it won't make accessing other phones easier, but that is the point. The iPhone 5c (the one in this case) has a separate chip that does the security (newer phones do not) so if they MOD the phone, the can try the encryption again and again, and if Reddit knows this (google it) I sure hope the FBI does.

So this has nothing to do with Apple refusing to help in this one case where they are not needed.

This is TOTALLY about the FBI wanting to go BIG BROTHER ORWELL on YOU and have permission to put a camera in everyone's butt without a warrant, but just a judge's writ to force Apple to give them the butt camera.
 
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Apparently the government changed the Apple ID while they had the phone.


Epic fail.
 
Yep, saw your other post, daughter notwithstanding, I would agree they could do an unlock. If it is truly encrypted then no, I'd disagree. Cause we're able to do that today and DOJ couldn't force us to cough up a password if we really didn't want to.
They're not going to decrypt it. What they want is for apple to write a version of the OS that disables the auto wipe feature, so they can brute force the password.
 
The FBI CAN access the data WITHOUT apple's help, yes it is a bit harder and it won't make accessing other phones easier, but that is the point.

I wish Apple would make this point. AFAIK they haven't and as mentioned by Retronym before changing the Apple ID makes it much more difficult. In any case, you have to figure this is the hacking case of the century. And the best outcome for everyone is for a 3rd party to hack this phone successfully. That way both Apple and the government come out looking much better. But even then there will be the conspiracy theorists who say the government forced Apple, that there's always been a backdoor, etc., etc., etc. And it only took like a dozen dead people for all of the excitement.

I think the thing that's bumming out about all of this is how easily we just ignore victims of violence these days. Be it these people or gang violence in Chicago or the tipple homicide in a small town, "They're dead, so what?"
 
I wish Apple would make this point. AFAIK they haven't and as mentioned by Retronym before changing the Apple ID makes it much more difficult. In any case, you have to figure this is the hacking case of the century. And the best outcome for everyone is for a 3rd party to hack this phone successfully. That way both Apple and the government come out looking much better. But even then there will be the conspiracy theorists who say the government forced Apple, that there's always been a backdoor, etc., etc., etc. And it only took like a dozen dead people for all of the excitement.

I think the thing that's bumming out about all of this is how easily we just ignore victims of violence these days. Be it these people or gang violence in Chicago or the tipple homicide in a small town, "They're dead, so what?"

I don't know that we really ignore, maybe it's just that it's frequent enough that's it's no longer shocking. And, if Apple didn't even respond, if they had done what the FBI and DOJ asked, we wouldn't have probably known it happened at all. Maybe toe story could have been another couple questioned in conjunction with, etc. I still think though encryption is encryption. It's meant to keep data private good or bad. It's a technology. And I have no doubt, Apple and Google alike will make it such that they'll be unable to decrypt their own software. I think Apple might already have this in their latest versions. Not sure about Android. Not sure about ignore, wish it weren't so common. :(
 
This'll start to get really awesome when Apple gets held in contempt and US Customs and Border Protection halts their ability to import finished devices from China.
 
that might start a revolution, you take away iphones or facebook and that might get the people off their ass.
 
And the court only started telling Apple how to do the job after Apple said that they could pull it off but they didn't want to. Actually, Apple even told the court that this is one of the ways they might have to do it. Furthermore, you don't have to remake a whole new product, just do what they already do but for a single phone, modify the code as a patch and push it to the phone in their development lab. Oh, and it's not a product to begin with, you sell products, this one they'll have to give away.

Shotglass01, encrypted files are not beyond recovery, they are just data at rest and if you needed those encrypted files to prove your own medical malpractice case after a doctor fucked up your back you'd be talking a little different I think.

Shotglass01, encryption isn't the issue, it's unlocking the phone. It's something Apple has done many times in the past but recently they are refusing, it's not even the first case they have refused but this one is a little different.

The dead guy wasn't the phone's owner. The phone actually belongs to San Bernadine County who has given their permission to have Apple unlock it. Apple doesn't stand a chance in this case and if they slam this one through before the other one they'll loose that one to just because. The owner of the phone who pays the bill wants their phone unlocked and all the public opinion in the world isn't going to help Tim Cook beat it. Not this one.

If the owner of the phone wanted it to be able to be unlocked without difficulty, they should of gone ahead and activated the provisioning system that is available before handing the phone over to the employee. That's how much corporate phones are handled. Then they could simply use the key escrow feature and unlock the phone. That they didn't isn't apples problem.

And its highly unlikely the phone contains anything of actual value. The perpetrators destroyed two separate phones which were likely the ones they used for confidential work. And so far all the examples of information that the FBI wants are available from other sources.
 
Huawei to US govt: Forget Apple. Our phones already come with a backdoor courtesy of the Chinese govt :D
 
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I don't see how Apple has *any obligation* to "assist" the government in this matter.
 
Maybe Apple will need to move their headquarters...
 
it's like a dictator ship thing, "we ordered you... comply or else!" am I the only one who think that?
 
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Apple will lose this if it continues through the court.

The main point here is that the request to get into the phone is legal. The phone was seized due to a criminal act and can be searched. Even if it wasn't seized during the criminal act, the FBI, or whoever, can get a legal warrant to search a phone. This isn't a backdoor, this is a legal requirement to search a device.

The problem is the FBI, NSA, or whoever, abusing this to search whatever they want whenever they want without getting the warrant. Apple is basically refusing to help the FBI because of the possibility that the government will misuse this new system to allow for phone searches.
 
Apple will lose this if it continues through the court.

The main point here is that the request to get into the phone is legal. The phone was seized due to a criminal act and can be searched. Even if it wasn't seized during the criminal act, the FBI, or whoever, can get a legal warrant to search a phone. This isn't a backdoor, this is a legal requirement to search a device.

The problem is the FBI, NSA, or whoever, abusing this to search whatever they want whenever they want without getting the warrant. Apple is basically refusing to help the FBI because of the possibility that the government will misuse this new system to allow for phone searches.

I don't think you are aware of the actual legal issues...
 
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Apple will lose this if it continues through the court.

The main point here is that the request to get into the phone is legal. The phone was seized due to a criminal act and can be searched. Even if it wasn't seized during the criminal act, the FBI, or whoever, can get a legal warrant to search a phone. This isn't a backdoor, this is a legal requirement to search a device.

The problem is the FBI, NSA, or whoever, abusing this to search whatever they want whenever they want without getting the warrant. Apple is basically refusing to help the FBI because of the possibility that the government will misuse this new system to allow for phone searches.

Well when you use the term request, anything is legal. I can request nikki cox toss my salad, doesnt mean shes gonna do it. Law enforcement has its own responsibilities when investigating a crime, and as the courts have stated, you dont have to unlock your god damned phone for fear of aiding law enforcement in your

Possibility my ass. Each and every one of us has no rights anymore. Anything you use your phone to do, you should think like a convicted felon, your calls and actions are being monitored and recorded. However, this isnt a sure thing for the feds, but they have obviously stacked the deck with the actual case they chose to set a precedent. Terrorism, the big boogeyman. Terrorism is gonna get you, so you better stay home and stare at a wall for the rest of your life, but make sure you stare out the window at your neighbors so you can rat them out like good little hitler youth's.
 
The FBI is the one who wants to "hack" the phone. the FBI acknowledges they have to use brute force to crack the passcode. They are only asking that Apple make a special iOS that removes the waiting when trying to enter too many wrong passcodes. So the real issue comes down to whether or not Apple, as a company, is obligated to provide a product or service to the US government against their wishes.

It's an important question, but it's being framed incorrectly by most of the talking heads who are commenting on it, which is probably not their fault...they just didn't read or understand the specifics.
 
I think they should open the phone, print all the information inside, give to them, that's it. if apple give them the key or the tools to open anytime any phone, they will abuse (you cant trust people that demand things without first saying "please").
 
If Apple is able to do a straight memory dump of an iPhone, then it should be very quick work for the Government to brute force the relatively weak internal encryption of the iPhone itself. What seems to be the issue is the 10 try limit or the phone re-formats itself. This means that whatever method Apple is forced to use will be available "in the wild" sooner rather than later, and they'll need to close down Apply Pay.

If Apple does this, then they'll probably need to simultaneously update iOS with something like proper 128/256-bit banking grade internal encryption with no 4-6 digit PIN crap. (same PIN crap Android uses also). Looking like unlocking a phone will need to be more complicated.
 
I think they should open the phone, print all the information inside, give to them, that's it. if apple give them the key or the tools to open anytime any phone, they will abuse (you cant trust people that demand things without first saying "please").

The FBI understands that Apple will not agree to an "any device, any time" solution. What they are asking is for Apple to give them a very specific version of software that will remove the "repeated password fail" mechanic on this very specific phone so that they can brute force the passcode.

The question is not about Apple giving them access...Apple does not have the access code. But what they do have is the ability to create a way AROUND the safety mechanism, and this is where you are getting in to new ground. Is Apple (or any company) compelled, even if by court order, to provide the government a NEW method of access?

The question for the citizens is: Do you accept that there may be places the government can't get access to, or are all things viewable by the all seeing eye?

dollar_ase.gif
 
The FBI is the one who wants to "hack" the phone. the FBI acknowledges they have to use brute force to crack the passcode. They are only asking that Apple make a special iOS that removes the waiting when trying to enter too many wrong passcodes. So the real issue comes down to whether or not Apple, as a company, is obligated to provide a product or service to the US government against their wishes.

It's an important question, but it's being framed incorrectly by most of the talking heads who are commenting on it, which is probably not their fault...they just didn't read or understand the specifics.
The waiting? That's not what they want. They want Apple to change the OS, and possibly hardware, so that the phone doesn't wipe itself if they don't get it right within 10 tries. Why should Apple be required to write a new version of an OS to help law enforcement recover from their own fuck up?
Why is this even relevant? The attackers had burner phones, which they went out of their way to destroy. It's a really really good assumption that they communicated on the burner phones, not on a company phone that (as far as the guy was concerned) could be monitored by his company.

This is the government trying to set a precedent for forcing Apple (and other companies) to unlock devices for them.
 
If Apple is able to do a straight memory dump of an iPhone, then it should be very quick work for the Government to brute force the relatively weak internal encryption of the iPhone itself. What seems to be the issue is the 10 try limit or the phone re-formats itself. This means that whatever method Apple is forced to use will be available "in the wild" sooner rather than later, and they'll need to close down Apply Pay.

If Apple does this, then they'll probably need to simultaneously update iOS with something like proper 128/256-bit banking grade internal encryption with no 4-6 digit PIN crap. (same PIN crap Android uses also). Looking like unlocking a phone will need to be more complicated.

They can already get a full dump. Doesn't do jack. The whole image is encrypted with AES. Don't know where you got this idea of weak internal encryption from, but AES would take decades at a minimum to crack. AES FYI, is the same encryption that the NSA/CIA/Banks/EVERYONE uses.
 
They can already get a full dump. Doesn't do jack. The whole image is encrypted with AES. Don't know where you got this idea of weak internal encryption from, but AES would take decades at a minimum to crack. AES FYI, is the same encryption that the NSA/CIA/Banks/EVERYONE uses.

AES or not... disable the 10 try wipe limit, and that new 6 digit pin code Apple is using is not going to do much on a brute force attack.
 
This is the ONLY time, I mean the ONLY TIME I have EVER wanted Apple to succeed.
 
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