Devs: Xbox360/PS3 CPU performance weak.

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rm19

Limp Gawd
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Jun 1, 2005
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Anandtech article reveals disappointing performance from IBM's cores.

Speaking directly with developers working on next gen dev kits, they say that IBM pulled the wool over MS/Sony's eyes with their astronomical performance numbers and low costs. Basically, "You get what you pay for."


"...the real-world performance of the Xenon CPU is about twice that of the 733MHz processor in the first Xbox...floating point multiplies are apparently 1/3 as fast on Xenon as on a Pentium 4."

"The Cell processor doesn’t get off the hook just because it only uses a single one of these horribly slow cores; the SPE array ends up being fairly useless in the majority of situations, making it little more than a waste of die space. "

"The most ironic bit of it all is that according to developers, if either manufacturer had decided to use an Athlon 64 or a Pentium D in their next-gen console, they would be significantly ahead of the competition in terms of CPU performance."

"Although both manufacturers royally screwed up their CPUs, all developers have agreed that they are quite pleased with the GPU power of the next-generation consoles."


At least we're getting state of the art graphics from ATI/Nvidia.
 
Lets not forget that the first XBOX only had a celery 733, and was still able to handle whatever was thrown at it. I would think doubling the CPU power while increaseing the GPU power significantly would not be a disapointment .... but thats just me.
 
bonkrowave said:
Lets not forget that the first XBOX only had a celery 733, and was still able to handle whatever was thrown at it. I would think doubling the CPU power while increaseing the GPU power significantly would not be a disapointment .... but thats just me.
Click to expand...

In hindsight, based on the article, a simpler design like a single Athlon 64 4000 + Ageia PhysX processor + ATI/Nvidia GPU would have been much easier to program for and would have provided insane performance especially in a closed box.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-console, in fact I can't wait for them. It's just that I hoped an IBM 3.2 GHz would at least come close to a P4 3.2GHz. The bottom line is the end results and I'm still impressed as hell with what I've seen so far.
 
I was very dissappointed with that article. I thought that the nextgen consoles were finally oing to get it right. I thought that their cpu's were a strong point, not 1/3 as slow as current day cpu's. Oh well, GT4 looks better than any game on my pc and it was done on a 300mhz cpu. The graphics will still probably be great. BTW, where is the revolution in all these tests. I know they are using more conventional hardware and focusing on unique gameplay. Wouldn't it be funny if they were actually the strongest when NIntendo was rumoured to be the weakest by far.
 
^^ Oy... here's where we get coined PC elitist butt knobs... GT4 may look as good as any game on YOUR PC. Not mine. I have a sneaking suspision GT4 looks the same on my PS2 as yours so the only logical conclusion I can draw is that your PC sucks.

Unless of course you're overexagerating, OR don't know how to set up your VC, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there. My money is on overexaggerating, bad PC games, or you're legally blind.
 
Ah yes... back on topic... other have said the same thing quoting devellopers. Should still come out sweet. Dunno but it makes sense to me. I couldn't see Sony and MS being fooled but I could see taking hits on AI etc to have top of the line graphics in a 3-$400 box... or Sony being stubborn SOBs, refusing to give it up that there chips haven't exactly inspired chip engineers the world abound.
 
I have a good A64/9800Pro pc. I just think games like Forza, Chaos Theory, etc match or beat my pc even on outdated hardware.
 
Blinkme323 said:
I was very dissappointed with that article. I thought that the nextgen consoles were finally oing to get it right. I thought that their cpu's were a strong point, not 1/3 as slow as current day cpu's. Oh well, GT4 looks better than any game on my pc and it was done on a 300mhz cpu. The graphics will still probably be great. BTW, where is the revolution in all these tests. I know they are using more conventional hardware and focusing on unique gameplay. Wouldn't it be funny if they were actually the strongest when NIntendo was rumoured to be the weakest by far.
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nintendo said their system would be 3x as powerful as the cube. go real world numbers eh?
 
Developers are going to need lots of optimization tools for this - in-order execution is simply going to demand tight code. The lack of a branch predictor can't help though, especially for AI.

I expect the tools are going to need to mature - it's not going to be like Xbox where you're tapping 80% of the system's power at launch.
 
how is 3 3.2ghz powerpc core with vectore extensions and capable of handleing 6threads at once only twice as powerful as a celeron of any stature i call complete bs on that its unbelivable sure mabey the cell(haha come on the cell is a joke compared of what was expected)but these cores in the xbox 360 are based off the mac version
 
Well I would compare this to how multiple processors on pcs don't give 2x the performance as only one. The multiple processors on the console would be utilized in the future so each core would handle separate things.
http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453

The first games on these consoles would be merely a GPU war according to the article.
 
Blinkme323 said:
I have a good A64/9800Pro pc. I just think games like Forza, Chaos Theory, etc match or beat my pc even on outdated hardware.
Click to expand...

Surprised Chaos Theory itself wouldnt look better on your PC then xbox then. I noticed it, and thought the difference pretty significant in all the splinter cells (and the first one I just had an OC'd 9700). Ah well, back to new consoles.
 
Noodle Boy said:
Well I would compare this to how multiple processors on pcs don't give 2x the performance as only one. The multiple processors on the console would be utilized in the future so each core would handle separate things.
http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453

The first games on these consoles would be merely a GPU war according to the article.
Click to expand...
ever hear of the elder scrolls and the AI in oblivion which will be a launch title for xbox360 :eek: thats the sound of being owned haha just playing
 
Kevin Lowe said:
Developers are going to need lots of optimization tools for this - in-order execution is simply going to demand tight code. The lack of a branch predictor can't help though, especially for AI.

I expect the tools are going to need to mature - it's not going to be like Xbox where you're tapping 80% of the system's power at launch.
Click to expand...

Thats what the new XNA tools are for.
 
see, why did people doubt me when I stated that MS and Sony's numbers were bloated?

obviously though, we need to wait for the PEOPLE to actually get their hands on them, I don't trust devs to much :eek:
 
Ballz2TheWallz said:
how is 3 3.2ghz powerpc core with vectore extensions and capable of handleing 6threads at once only twice as powerful as a celeron of any stature i call complete bs on that its unbelivable sure mabey the cell(haha come on the cell is a joke compared of what was expected)but these cores in the xbox 360 are based off the mac version
Click to expand...

I think they were comparing a single 3.2 core running a single thread to the Xbox One's single 733MHz CPU. At least I hope that's what they meant.
 
bonkrowave said:
Lets not forget that the first XBOX only had a celery 733, and was still able to handle whatever was thrown at it. I would think doubling the CPU power while increaseing the GPU power significantly would not be a disapointment .... but thats just me.
Click to expand...

Well, you're obviously not in the technology business or have any exposure to it, so i'll explain it to you: For a technology that is 5 years apart, 'doubling' the CPU is extremely underpowered.
 
The devs still have kits that can't be labled beta yet.

The only beta part in the current dev kits is the GPU. The kits they are running on are single core still.

So basically they are still running modified G5's with a beta 360 GPU.
 
rayman2k2 said:
see, why did people doubt me when I stated that MS and Sony's numbers were bloated?

obviously though, we need to wait for the PEOPLE to actually get their hands on them, I don't trust devs to much :eek:
Click to expand...

I don't think the article's intentions were to say that the numbers were bloated, just that they don't matter when it comes to real world performance.
 
moralpanic said:
Well, you're obviously not in the technology business or have any exposure to it, so i'll explain it to you: For a technology that is 5 years apart, 'doubling' the CPU is extremely underpowered.
Click to expand...

Congradulations on that elitest remark captain asshat!

The XBOX 360 is almost entirely GPU dependant anyway. And besides we have all seen the demos running on Alpha kits, and there is no visible, bottleneck with the CPU there.
 
Sounds like they are already apologizing for a sucktastic 1st round of launch games, lol.
 
Nasty_Savage said:
Sounds like they are already apologizing for a sucktastic 1st round of launch games, lol.
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That would be the devs fault, not the hardwares. Also, each dev is different. PGR3, NFS:MW, and The Outfit already look great where other dev's games look like Xbox games in comparison.
 
is it just me or do devs say alot of things

xbox360 is best-probably payed
ps3 is so much more powerfulprobably payed
add other coments here

i wonder did nintendo payed for this article lol
 
Nasty_Savage said:
Sounds like they are already apologizing for a sucktastic 1st round of launch games, lol.
Click to expand...

I don't know, some of those launch games look pretty awesome and MS themselves have admitted that the first and maybe second gen games will use only a single thread like PCs do today. Writing multi-threaded code is extremely difficult but when those games engines eventually trickle in, we'll see some even better looking stuff.
 
It may very well be, but I've been uber happy and console free for three or four years. It would really have to be mind numbing for me to bite. And even then, I'll wait for the smoke to clear. I certainly will not be an early adopter. Hopefully you are correct and these games are awesome. Usually, the first volley of games have certain weaknesses to them. I'm predicting wicked easy or short games with lotsa gah gah graphics, but I haven't been following it too closely. But lotsa luck to you early adopters...I leanred my lessons over the years ;)
 
rm19 said:
Anandtech article reveals disappointing performance from IBM's cores.

Speaking directly with developers working on next gen dev kits, they say that IBM pulled the wool over MS/Sony's eyes with their astronomical performance numbers and low costs. Basically, "You get what you pay for."


"...the real-world performance of the Xenon CPU is about twice that of the 733MHz processor in the first Xbox...floating point multiplies are apparently 1/3 as fast on Xenon as on a Pentium 4."

"The Cell processor doesn’t get off the hook just because it only uses a single one of these horribly slow cores; the SPE array ends up being fairly useless in the majority of situations, making it little more than a waste of die space. "

"The most ironic bit of it all is that according to developers, if either manufacturer had decided to use an Athlon 64 or a Pentium D in their next-gen console, they would be significantly ahead of the competition in terms of CPU performance."

"Although both manufacturers royally screwed up their CPUs, all developers have agreed that they are quite pleased with the GPU power of the next-generation consoles."


At least we're getting state of the art graphics from ATI/Nvidia.
Click to expand...

Its official, the next gen consoles PWNZ!!! PC statements should stop.

While I do acknowledge that the console devs can do more with a dedicated platform, the PC's still have more potential. Plus physics processing cards are a simple matter to install as are any other dedicated hardware we'd need to enhance the gaming experience.

bonkrowave said:
Lets not forget that the first XBOX only had a celery 733, and was still able to handle whatever was thrown at it. I would think doubling the CPU power while increaseing the GPU power significantly would not be a disapointment .... but thats just me.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Blinkme323 said:
I was very dissappointed with that article. I thought that the nextgen consoles were finally oing to get it right. I thought that their cpu's were a strong point, not 1/3 as slow as current day cpu's. Oh well, GT4 looks better than any game on my pc and it was done on a 300mhz cpu. The graphics will still probably be great. BTW, where is the revolution in all these tests. I know they are using more conventional hardware and focusing on unique gameplay. Wouldn't it be funny if they were actually the strongest when NIntendo was rumoured to be the weakest by far.
Click to expand...

No company can afford to lose $2500 on $3K consoles. Few people ever purchase enough games to offset that much cost. Think about what a $3K PC is made of. You take similar architecture and try to turn it into a $500 console. You have to cut corners.

Losing a couple hundred bucks or so on a console is one thing if you can make it up with accessory and game sales. Beyond that isn't a good business model.

GT4 has good graphics but the aliasing is some of the worst I've ever seen in a game. A PC can do that so much better. Look at some of the PC racing games such as Need 4 Speed Underground 1 & 2. I think they look as good or better than GT4.

Still GT4 is a better game than the above mentioned NFS games. ITs not all about graphics. Consoles also bring gamng goodness to people who can't afford high end PC's. Which is a good thing.

bonkrowave said:
Congradulations on that elitest remark captain asshat!

The XBOX 360 is almost entirely GPU dependant anyway. And besides we have all seen the demos running on Alpha kits, and there is no visible, bottleneck with the CPU there.
Click to expand...

I agree with this too. The fact that the GPU's aren't as powerfull as originally thought changes nothing.

AMD and Intel were never threatened by the Cell anyway, as the Cell doesn't and isn't capable of executing x86 instructions. Even if it was more powerfull.
 
Sir-Fragalot said:
Its official, the next gen consoles PWNZ!!! PC statements should stop.

While I do acknowledge that the console devs can do more with a dedicated platform, the PC's still have more potential. Plus physics processing cards are a simple matter to install as are any other dedicated hardware we'd need to enhance the gaming experience.



Agreed.



No company can afford to lose $2500 on $3K consoles. Few people ever purchase enough games to offset that much cost. Think about what a $3K PC is made of. You take similar architecture and try to turn it into a $500 console. You have to cut corners.

Losing a couple hundred bucks or so on a console is one thing if you can make it up with accessory and game sales. Beyond that isn't a good business model.

GT4 has good graphics but the aliasing is some of the worst I've ever seen in a game. A PC can do that so much better. Look at some of the PC racing games such as Need 4 Speed Underground 1 & 2. I think they look as good or better than GT4.

Still GT4 is a better game than the above mentioned NFS games. ITs not all about graphics. Consoles also bring gamng goodness to people who can't afford high end PC's. Which is a good thing.



I agree with this too. The fact that the GPU's aren't as powerfull as originally thought changes nothing.

AMD and Intel were never threatened by the Cell anyway, as the Cell doesn't and isn't capable of executing x86 instructions. Even if it was more powerfull.
Click to expand...
and if it was adapted well it would be a POS because of no ooi and branch prediction,%80 preformence reduction on general processes
 
I am a little dissapointed. I do believe Anand.

But at least both the GPUs are supposed to be very fast.

Seems that the 360 has a CPU that is comprable to the underpower of the Celery 733 when the Xbox came out. And MS has been talking about physics how they were going to improve and all. Well I don't think so running on this CPU. Maybe X3.
 
meanmodda[H] said:
They sure pulled the article off quick.Someone got a phonecall from the lawyers methinks.
Click to expand...

Damn! I wonder if they'll shut this thread down. :eek:
 
someone PLEASE browse offline in your cache etc for the article and copy and paste it in here???
 
The article was taken down for some reason, but anyways, I have no doubt that while the Xbox360 will be powerfull, it won't be anything special compared to a high end pc of today.
 
MS and Sony know something about computers/consoles that computer savvy people don't get. Joe sixpack hears "Xbox360 has 3 cpus each with 3.2ghz!" and he thinks its gonna kickass. By using simpler in order processors with multicores and vector units it impresses the ignorant and its up to them to make it work right. I have no doubts that eventually developers are gonna figure out how to suck the power from the chips, like anand said its just going to take longer , and cost them more. Perhaps that poster was right when he said that nintendos machine might be best served with a "simpler" single or dual core out of order (more similar in architecture to a general purpose a64 or p4) cpu? Maybe they will have that and a spiffy new input device that makes console gameplay fun and new agian? I'm glad their still being secretive, otherwise i would be really dissapointed about the way the next gen systems are turning out. And anyone who didn't suspect that Sony was totally blowing smoke at E3 hasn't been paying attention to the last 2 generations.
 
Apparently Anand got too sensitive information about the Xenon from a developer that was under NDA and released it in the article.

Now MS is investigating Anand's sources, and has nicely asked Anand to remove/pull the article.

Lesson: If your article/info is wrong, MS doesn't track down your sources.
 
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