Greek New Testament Papyrus Discovered On eBay

Megalith

24-bit/48kHz
Staff member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
13,000
And here's the latest one-of-a-kind find off everyone's favorite auction site.

Dr. Smith contacted the seller and urged him to halt the online auction — apparently the first on eBay for a Greek New Testament papyrus, he and other scholars said — and let him study the fragment. The seller agreed, and now, on Saturday, Mr. Smith will present his research at the annual conference of the Society of Biblical Literature in Atlanta.
 
I am glad they removed it from ebay. There are those out there who would just as soon buy it and destroy it as anyone else. Now, the question is whether it is authentic or not.
 
From the title, it almost sounded like they discovered a new true type font.
 
I would have relisted it with more information once I knew what it was. Fuck this noise:

“Collectively, globally, it’s ours,” continued Dr. Jones, who also communicated with the seller, who wishes to remain anonymous. “It needs to be available for research, to be put on display.”
 
I also am glad they took it off ebay and allowed it to be studied. The Bible is THE most important work whether you believe it or not. I am one who believes.
 
If they want to study it, they can buy it!

Exactly. I wouldn't sell it on eBay though. Imagine the biggest PayPal claim ever! An auction house that deals in this kind of thing would be a much better choice. Or an individual via a reputable escrow service.
 
I also am glad they took it off ebay and allowed it to be studied. The Bible is THE most important work whether you believe it or not. I am one who believes.

Biased opinion. It really isn't that important. We can do absolutely fine without it. I mean, really, as far as a book filled with stories goes it's actually quite dull. Other religions do it better.
 
Exactly. I wouldn't sell it on eBay though. Imagine the biggest PayPal claim ever! An auction house that deals in this kind of thing would be a much better choice. Or an individual via a reputable escrow service.

An auction house would probably end up taking more than PayPal most likely.
 
I also am glad they took it off ebay and allowed it to be studied. The Bible is THE most important work whether you believe it or not. I am one who believes.

Well if we are just slinging opinions around like this, imo its just another collection of fairy tales that cause idiots to kill each other.

As for the news story, good on the guy for letting them study it but if its really that big a deal maybe they should pay for it. Just because they see it as important does not make it that way for everyone, to him its just an object thats got a value and he has every right to try and do as he pleases with it.
 
*pops popcorn and waits for the potential of an angry debate about religion*

I'll Start.
(but nothing angry here) ;)
There are currently hundreds of copies of validated books of the new testament in Greek dating from the first few centuries AD. This is the source of valid modern translations of the new Testament. The varies copies of the letters of Paul,James, Peter, etc are contrasted and the differences are taken into account; but these differences are usually minuscule and do not change the content and meaning of the scriptures.

Contrary to the FICTION that the books of the bible are comprised of copies of different translations, of translation, of translation over the centuries and thus lost their original meaning. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I would agree that some -translations- are better than others.
For instance the old King James Version is inferior to the more modern translation. Really in my opinion the KJV is just BAD; it is confusing because of it's archaic language for one and it failed to properly translate the original texts correctly in many places.
If you want a good Modern English translation I would suggest a ESV (English standard version) or the NAS (New American Standard). A popular version is the NIV (New international version). The difference here is it is a "idea for idea" translation, and not a word for word. It proves not to be as accurate a translation as the ESV or the NAS.
 
I'll Start.
(but nothing angry here) ;)
There are currently hundreds of copies of validated books of the new testament in Greek dating from the first few centuries AD. This is the source of valid modern translations of the new Testament. The varies copies of the letters of Paul,James, Peter, etc are contrasted and the differences are taken into account; but these differences are usually minuscule and do not change the content and meaning of the scriptures.

Contrary to the FICTION that the books of the bible are comprised of copies of different translations, of translation, of translation over the centuries and thus lost their original meaning. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I would agree that some -translations- are better than others.
For instance the old King James Version is inferior to the more modern translation. Really in my opinion the KJV is just BAD; it is confusing because of it's archaic language for one and it failed to properly translate the original texts correctly in many places.
If you want a good Modern English translation I would suggest a ESV (English standard version) or the NAS (New American Standard). A popular version is the NIV (New international version). The difference here is it is a "idea for idea" translation, and not a word for word. It proves not to be as accurate a translation as the ESV or the NAS.

Well that's not angry or very debate-y at all. Those kinds of things haven't really gotten started yet, but once the popcorn is ready, you're welcome to grab a bowl. :)
 
I would have the piece authenticated, researched, give it a clean bill of health and then co-sign it to Sotheby's Auction House with a high reserve. The ultimate buyer can then afford to allow further study or not.
 
Biased opinion. It really isn't that important. We can do absolutely fine without it. I mean, really, as far as a book filled with stories goes it's actually quite dull. Other religions do it better.

It's laughable that people who were born in recent times, attempt to determine that a script/book from almost 2000 years ago isn't important. The world is ruled by dead men who wrote books of beliefs hundreds and thousands of years ago. The United States was built on books written way before our time; When people valued knowledge and didn't only believe in themselves.

Where where you when it was written? Clearly your input wasn't important enough to create it and thankfully we have people who appreciate history in charge of this. Maybe we need to talk about monkeys and theories about the universe to get everyone's attention. Keep thinking your education, job and retirement account is all you need in this world. When you get older and closer to the end of your life, your self-pride and ignorance will wear off.
 
It would just be nice if everyone could believe what they want to believe and leave it at that. But no, you have those pesky Christians that believe they need to "spread the word of God to the unbelievers". If you believe in the Bible, God, and all the rest.. good for you. If you don't, well good for you too.

It's amazing that some feel there is a "war on Christianity" when they have kinda brought it on themselves over centuries of trying to push their belief system on the rest of the world. Now when more people want to stand up and say "I don't want to hear anymore" they get all offended because they aren't allowed to make Christmas, Easter, etc. a big deal and have to generalize it into things like "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas".
 
Forgot to add my "on topic" comment ;)

While I do think the document (and the Bible in general) is important and needed to be studied, I don't feel that it should be done so out of any kindness or altruistic reason. If a religious or scholastic group feels the need to further study the document, they can purchase it study it to their heart's desire. It's not like the Roman Catholic Church, or any other large religious organization doesn't have money to purchase the relic.
 
It's laughable that people who were born in recent times, attempt to determine that a script/book from almost 2000 years ago isn't important.

The book was written by men, yet men aren't qualified to judge it's importance? Especially considering the tools and wealth of comparative knowledge that did not exist before?

The world is ruled by dead men who wrote books of beliefs hundreds and thousands of years ago.

Maybe if you're a Muslim. I'm certainly not bound by the texts of any old books or ruled by them.

The United States was built on books written way before our time; When people valued knowledge and didn't only believe in themselves.

So to be clear, by "knowledge" you are actually referring to ancient scripture of questionable origin, and you are claiming that believing in one's self is a bad thing? Ok. :rolleyes:

Maybe we need to talk about monkeys and theories about the universe to get everyone's attention.

Is that supposed to be some underhanded jab at evolution and modern knowledge? Ironically, the only people who ever talk about humans evolving from monkeys are anti-evolution folks who latch onto ignorance and spout that almost as a joke. Humans did not evolve from Monkeys, rather, we share a common ancestor. That common ancestor was not a "monkey".

Keep thinking your education, job and retirement account is all you need in this world. When you get older and closer to the end of your life, your self-pride and ignorance will wear off.

So basically, people who are scared of dying latch onto religion because it makes them feel better. Dying is scary, I don't blame them. It's also scary thinking about all the stuff people have been conned into doing over the years because they were fooled into believing a happy afterlife is waiting for them.
 
Lol. Right. The book that has touched everything in your life, including our laws... it's not important at all.

You can't prove nore disprove the accounts of the Bible. Calling someone's belief system "fairytales" without empirical evidence to back your view up is both insensitive and ignorant. Most people on this forum were probably bullied quite often for being the nerds in school. Now you choose to be the bully? Congratulations!

How can you logically disagree with the statement that the Bible is the most important piece of literature in history when even now, whether you like it or not, or even realize it, plays a roll in your life?


On topic- nifty find. It's amazing these scrolls have survived for so long.
 
The Bible is one of the most important books in human history. Whether or not you believe in the stories or what they mean is irrelevant. Wars have be waged over the contents of that book. Laws have been created because of it. Millions of people read and believe the words in that book.

If the Bible isn't an important book, the Constitution of the US is equally worthless.

Important as a history book? Not really? Importance as a historical document? Hell yes.

I'd offer it up to research to those that wanted to study it, but offer it for sale as well. I like supporting education, but if someone wants to buy it, fine. Just let people study it first.
 
Lol. Right. The book that has touched everything in your life, including our laws... it's not important at all.

You can't prove nore disprove the accounts of the Bible. Calling someone's belief system "fairytales" without empirical evidence to back your view up is both insensitive and ignorant. Most people on this forum were probably bullied quite often for being the nerds in school. Now you choose to be the bully? Congratulations!

How can you logically disagree with the statement that the Bible is the most important piece of literature in history when even now, whether you like it or not, or even realize it, plays a roll in your life?


On topic- nifty find. It's amazing these scrolls have survived for so long.

The ignorant claim you can at least debate on but insensitive - wow. People are so victimized these days. All this PC BS is just that BS.

One of the greatest lines ever - without intending to be - was in Star Wars: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
 
It's laughable that people who were born in recent times, attempt to determine that a script/book from almost 2000 years ago isn't important. The world is ruled by dead men who wrote books of beliefs hundreds and thousands of years ago. The United States was built on books written way before our time; When people valued knowledge and didn't only believe in themselves.

Where where you when it was written? Clearly your input wasn't important enough to create it and thankfully we have people who appreciate history in charge of this. Maybe we need to talk about monkeys and theories about the universe to get everyone's attention. Keep thinking your education, job and retirement account is all you need in this world. When you get older and closer to the end of your life, your self-pride and ignorance will wear off.
What's more laughable is that people believe something written 2000+ years ago that has been empirically disproved by science, archeology and written records across countless civilizations.

Here's a pro tip. You can maintain your belief in God and Jesus without giving a shred of credibility to the joke that is the bible. There is no need to continue arguing in the face of facts. The bible is wrong on just about everything. If you want to believe in God, that's cool. But let's stop pretending the bible is anything other than a collection of personal stories written by people who were woefully ignorant.
 
I also am glad they took it off ebay and allowed it to be studied. The Bible is THE most important work whether you believe it or not. I am one who believes.
Same here :) Although I'm hoping that the compensated the seller (probably not as much as some collectors would have offered but just a little)

Biased opinion. It really isn't that important. We can do absolutely fine without it. I mean, really, as far as a book filled with stories goes it's actually quite dull. Other religions do it better.

It's true that AK0tA might be biased but that doesn't necessarily make AK0tA wrong.
I've had atheist friend who've read different books of other religion and also the Bible and he said that the Bible is the most consistent and most well written.
I've skimmed other books as well and I tend to agree... but then as you would say to me, since I believe, I am very biased. But I do try my best to make an objective observation (at least that's how I learned to do things in medical school)

I'll Start.
(but nothing angry here) ;)
There are currently hundreds of copies of validated books of the new testament in Greek dating from the first few centuries AD. This is the source of valid modern translations of the new Testament. The varies copies of the letters of Paul,James, Peter, etc are contrasted and the differences are taken into account; but these differences are usually minuscule and do not change the content and meaning of the scriptures.

Contrary to the FICTION that the books of the bible are comprised of copies of different translations, of translation, of translation over the centuries and thus lost their original meaning. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I would agree that some -translations- are better than others.
For instance the old King James Version is inferior to the more modern translation. Really in my opinion the KJV is just BAD; it is confusing because of it's archaic language for one and it failed to properly translate the original texts correctly in many places.
If you want a good Modern English translation I would suggest a ESV (English standard version) or the NAS (New American Standard). A popular version is the NIV (New international version). The difference here is it is a "idea for idea" translation, and not a word for word. It proves not to be as accurate a translation as the ESV or the NAS.

ESV Rocks. Although, my dad studies the manuscripts (he speaks Aramic, Greek, and Hebrew and probably more), so I go to him for original stuff. :p
 
The Bible is one of the most important books in human history. Whether or not you believe in the stories or what they mean is irrelevant. Wars have be waged over the contents of that book. Laws have been created because of it. Millions of people read and believe the words in that book.

If the Bible isn't an important book, the Constitution of the US is equally worthless.

Important as a history book? Not really? Importance as a historical document? Hell yes.

I'd offer it up to research to those that wanted to study it, but offer it for sale as well. I like supporting education, but if someone wants to buy it, fine. Just let people study it first.

That's exactly the problem with it right there. Fanatics waging war over a piece of literature. That's reason enough for me to ban all religious books and all religions. People need to start believing in proven facts instead of fairy tales.
 
That's exactly the problem with it right there. Fanatics waging war over a piece of literature. That's reason enough for me to ban all religious books and all religions. People need to start believing in proven facts instead of fairy tales.

One of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen here. What are you 13 years old??
 
I really hope "It belongs in a museum!" was uttered at some point in the conversation between Dr. Smith and the seller.
 
I really hope "It belongs in a museum!" was uttered at some point in the conversation between Dr. Smith and the seller.

Dr. Smith?

DrSmith11.jpg
 
What's more laughable is that people believe something written 2000+ years ago that has been empirically disproved by science, archeology and written records across countless civilizations.

Here's a pro tip. You can maintain your belief in God and Jesus without giving a shred of credibility to the joke that is the bible. There is no need to continue arguing in the face of facts. The bible is wrong on just about everything. If you want to believe in God, that's cool. But let's stop pretending the bible is anything other than a collection of personal stories written by people who were woefully ignorant.

That's simply not true. I understand your argument about science, but archaeology and the written historical records are far more reliable than any other material dated from the same period. This isn't hard to research either. So while the people 3000 years ago were "woefully ignorant" you are simply "willfully ignorant."
 
That's simply not true. I understand your argument about science, but archaeology and the written historical records are far more reliable than any other material dated from the same period. This isn't hard to research either. So while the people 3000 years ago were "woefully ignorant" you are simply "willfully ignorant."

I'm not willfully ignorant about anything. The research has been done and has proven time and time again that there is very little historical accuracy in the bible. I've researched this time and time again over the years.
 
I'm not willfully ignorant about anything. The research has been done and has proven time and time again that there is very little historical accuracy in the bible. I've researched this time and time again over the years.

Hmmm.. that's the first I've heard of that.
I mean I've heard such things mentioned regarding Genesis and its dating and the way how Chronological record does not match up with the age of this planet.
But there's an issue of whether some people accept first few chapters of Genesis as poem or as literal account.
And then there's another issue of Hebrew culture where the use of numerology (don't remember if this is the technical term for it) makes those chronological record terrible to actually calculate actual time passed.

Other than that, I know quite a few people (including non-Christians) who can definitely tell you that some of the historical records in the Bible is very accurate and can even be used a reference point.

But I'm sure you've done your research and you probably have some valid points as well.
But coming from a field where I have to read lot of articles and publications (usually medical stuff; so might not apply to others), there are lots of "articles" that tell you how valid their thesis is and another "article" telling you exactly the opposite. It's important to stick to the "peer-reviewed" stuff.

Regardless, I'm excited about what's actually written on the back of this newly found manuscript as well since we are already familiar with the Gospel of John.
 
Back
Top