How The DMCA May Have Let Carmakers Cheat Emissions

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You know, if these guys put half as much effort into making cars that can pass emissions as they did into making a software "defeat device," they would have had cars running cleaner than a Tesla by now. ;)

Automakers have been able to apply the 1998 the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) to their vehicle software, making it unlawful for independent researchers to look at the code without permission. "The fact that automakers can assert a DMCA claim against researchers is a deterrent to going in and actually looking at the code to understand what it's doing," said Kit Walsh, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
 
Don't worry, someday soon the data-mining by Google Vehicle Division will generate emission reports that they can sell.
 
Diesels are just dirty, this is why there are almost no diesels approved for sale in the US. Mazda couldn't get their 2.2L diesel approved for the CX5 and it makes the grade in Japan and Europe. The only non-VW group diesel passenger cars in the US I can think of are the Chevy Cruze Diesel and a few high-end Mercedes and they might be considered trucks.
 
Quix said:
Diesels are just dirty, this is why there are almost no diesels approved for sale in the US. Mazda couldn't get their 2.2L diesel approved for the CX5 and it makes the grade in Japan and Europe. The only non-VW group diesel passenger cars in the US I can think of are the Chevy Cruze Diesel and a few high-end Mercedes and they might be considered trucks.
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No that not why
You see diesels
In US is 85% Gas to 15% Diesels
Where in other Counrty it the way around
 
With a little luck, this will drum up support to repeal the horrible DMCA legislation which turns fair use into a crime, and ordinary citizens into criminals.
 
Quix said:
Diesels are just dirty, this is why there are almost no diesels approved for sale in the US. Mazda couldn't get their 2.2L diesel approved for the CX5 and it makes the grade in Japan and Europe. The only non-VW group diesel passenger cars in the US I can think of are the Chevy Cruze Diesel and a few high-end Mercedes and they might be considered trucks.
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Uhm no. A properly made Diesel is actually cleaner than an equivalent gas engine. This is why they are so popular in other countries where people are taxed based on how much a car pollutes at the time of purchase.

In fact, a large proportion of people who bought VW diesels in the U.S. did so because of the environmental benefits over gas engines.

Diesels today are not the smoky horrible things of the 70's and early 80's we all remember (unless some jerk wad has modified them to "blow coal")

The irony with this whole mess is that the U.S. has some of the toughest diesel emissions standards in the world, and even though VW's diesels emit 40x higher emissions than the standards allow, they are still a pretty reasonable environmental choice.

If you look at diesels which are actually conforming to regulations, like those BMW uses or, Mercedes Bluetec Common Rail designs, they are just about the most environmentally friendly combustion engines per unit of power delivered, money can buy, and they only get better if you use biodiesel :p
 
Steve said:
Automakers have been able to apply the 1998 the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) to their vehicle software, making it unlawful for independent researchers to look at the code without permission. "The fact that automakers can assert a DMCA claim against researchers is a deterrent to going in and actually looking at the code to understand what it's doing," said Kit Walsh, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Click to expand...

Good. Unintended consequences of screwing everyone else over. The people sure as fuck didn't pass the DMCA. Greedy companies sure as fuck didn't pass the DMCA. You know where the blame lies.
 
mynamehere said:
EPA meets DMCA. Who will win? Could this spell the end of the dreaded DMCA?
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Of course not.
After this fiasco, they will just add a clause somewhere that automakers are not protected by the DMCA (if the lobbyists don't get to them first)
 
Yet again it shows that DMCA is an abomination. Though with all the lobbying behind this law, unlikely anything will change.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041884050 said:
Uhm no. A properly made Diesel is actually cleaner than an equivalent gas engine. This is why they are so popular in other countries where people are taxed based on how much a car pollutes at the time of purchase.
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They also suck to drive (inb4 Audi Le Mans exception) and follow, and mostly sound like trash. CO2 emissions are marginally better at the expense of higher NO2, which can be filtered but isn't legally required.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33254803

I never understood the appear of diesel unless you tow stuff a lot. Or you want to be super eco-friendly. Or you want better MPGs which seems to be offset by higher fuel costs.

/hypocrisy (I drive a F150 w/ a 5.0 and Borlas..)
 
Zarathustra[H];1041884050 said:
Uhm no. A properly made Diesel is actually cleaner than an equivalent gas engine. This is why they are so popular in other countries where people are taxed based on how much a car pollutes at the time of purchase.

In fact, a large proportion of people who bought VW diesels in the U.S. did so because of the environmental benefits over gas engines.

Diesels today are not the smoky horrible things of the 70's and early 80's we all remember (unless some jerk wad has modified them to "blow coal")

The irony with this whole mess is that the U.S. has some of the toughest diesel emissions standards in the world, and even though VW's diesels emit 40x higher emissions than the standards allow, they are still a pretty reasonable environmental choice.

If you look at diesels which are actually conforming to regulations, like those BMW uses or, Mercedes Bluetec Common Rail designs, they are just about the most environmentally friendly combustion engines per unit of power delivered, money can buy, and they only get better if you use biodiesel :p
Click to expand...
No, only on CO2 emissions, do diesels do well, and CO2 was never the issue with diesel emissions (or even gas/petrol), since CO2 is just a simply CH & O2 reaction byproduct (basically, we count it as MPG, other countries count it as reacted fuel products per km).

NOX and particulates (basically, unburned crap), however, is where diesels fail to meet up with their gasoline cousins. This is what VW is getting dinged on. Diesels already have to use a lot of particular matter filters (the most well known being adblue/urea (basically, sheep piss extract)) just to even meet their generally less stringent requirements (relative to gas/petrol).

In the US, even though our diesel emissions regulations are somewhat relaxed, relative to petrol/gas, they are still more strict than any other (major) nation on this planet, bar none. I generally don't quite like making these sort of "never" claims, however, that's exactly where we are. Honda has failed to get their diesel on the market, as will Mazda (arguably, they already have failed), simply because their engineers couldn't figure out a way to get their in-house diesels on the market, competitive to VW USA's price/performance ratio. Motortrend's article on VW's emissions cheat has noted Honda engineers in 2009 directly stated they didn't know how VW managed to deliver on their (then) new diesel engine. This is the same Honda which has normally lead gas/petrol engine development wrt to emissions (in the eyes of CARB; which is the only entity in the US allowed to have stricter regulations than the EPA), is the only real competition to Toyota's hybrids (even if they did have a dull period between '08 and '13), and they couldn't deliver when it came to diesels, despite having gained experience and know-how from a tech/engine hookup (trade, really) with GM/Isuzu/Duramax.

In the end, diesels will pollute more per mile, than gasoline engines will (another "never" statement that I usually don't like to make). Byproducts of their compression-ignition architecture, which effectively prohibits (in the modern era; another "never") effective pre-combustion fuel/air mixing, a major part of how gasoline engines manage to reduce unburnt fuel and emissions. When it comes down to it, we will either see diesels become more like gasoline engines in every way (unlikely, though Mazda's current diesel is arguably trying), or they will return to being commercial-only (not a strict definition) in the long run.


All of this is a poorly-structured IMO, of course.
 
Wow, too many spelling and grammatical errors in the first two structures to even count. Sorry.
 
If emissions were properly tested in the first place, it couldnt be an issue.
Leave a loophole...
 
Well, as I've said before and I'll say it again, the DMCA is the most nefarious and draconian piece of legislation this country has had in the last 50 years. Repeal it now.
 
jeremyshaw said:
NOX and particulates (basically, unburned crap), however, is where diesels fail to meet up with their gasoline cousins. This is what VW is getting dinged on. Diesels already have to use a lot of particular matter filters (the most well known being adblue/urea (basically, sheep piss extract)) just to even meet their generally less stringent requirements (relative to gas/petrol).
Click to expand...

Back in the day, guys used to hook up spark plugs wired to their batteries at the tips of exhaust to burn off what didn't burn and also because it looked cool. This actually made for clean running cars believe it or not. But, that practice was banned because jaywalking women were getting their nylon panty hoses and legs burned by them on city streets, so there went your clean burn into the air.

I say bring it back and frankly, I'd like to see this technology implemented: http://www.gizmag.com/diesel-spark-plug-gasoline/12484/
 
Methadras said:
Well, as I've said before and I'll say it again, the DMCA is the most nefarious and draconian piece of legislation this country has had in the last 50 years. Repeal it now.
Click to expand...

Would probably say the PATRIOT Act outclasses it by several miles, but wouldn't mind seeing them both go.
 
shspvr said:
No that not why
You see diesels
In US is 85% Gas to 15% Diesels
Where in other Counrty it the way around
Click to expand...

In other countries it's the other way around because manufacturers, like VW, have clearly been lying about how clean the diesels are. The US uses third party verification, instead of manufacturer chosen verification, which foreign diesels fail and that's why they are not sold here.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Would probably say the PATRIOT Act outclasses it by several miles, but wouldn't mind seeing them both go.
Click to expand...

PA doesn't even close the draconian nonsense that the DMCA provides. I've read both, so I know the comparatives.
 
Methadras said:
I wonder if BMW is going to get snared in this.
Click to expand...

In another thread, I posted a link to an interview with one of the researchers that discovered this, and BMW was one of the cars they tested and it didn't have any issues. I believe it was a diesel, but I don't recall if that was explicitly stated or not.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041884033 said:
With a little luck, this will drum up support to repeal the horrible DMCA legislation which turns fair use into a crime, and ordinary citizens into criminals.
Click to expand...

But, but, think of John Deere, how could that company make a living without extorting poor farmers for each and every checkup/fix since it is unlawful for you to do them thanks to the very same DMCA!
 
So the EPA simply contracts out the testing to another country who isn't stupid enough to have the DMCA.
 
For those interested in why diesel is not as popular in the USA check out this arcicle from the BBC:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34329596

I miss my Chevy diesel pickup which had over a 600 mile range and got 17+MPG vs. my f250 gas which gets 12MPG and has about a 350 mile range. I don't miss the diesel smoke however and the f250 has better passing power useful on the 2 lane highways I mostly drive on.
 
When you see a pickup truck with diesel stacks sticking up through the bed you count the number of stacks to discover the driver's IQ.
 
Lith1um said:
When you see a pickup truck with diesel stacks sticking up through the bed you count the number of stacks to discover the driver's IQ.
Click to expand...

You sound butthurt. Maybe pay attention to yourself instead of what others do.
 
Lith1um said:
When you see a pickup truck with diesel stacks sticking up through the bed you count the number of stacks to discover the driver's IQ.
Click to expand...

Why does that bother you? That's like saying a guy with bull horns on the front of his grill is a meat murderer.
 
Because I think it's fucking rediculous to shove more diesel fuel into an engine than it can burn, just to entertain a bunch of mother breathers. Particularly the type who does it while screaming "fuck the environment" in a backwards ass rebel yell.
 
nilepez said:
In another thread, I posted a link to an interview with one of the researchers that discovered this, and BMW was one of the cars they tested and it didn't have any issues. I believe it was a diesel, but I don't recall if that was explicitly stated or not.
Click to expand...
one of their cars passed, but then they did actually get burned on another
 
SilverSliver said:
In other countries it's the other way around because manufacturers, like VW, have clearly been lying about how clean the diesels are. The US uses third party verification, instead of manufacturer chosen verification, which foreign diesels fail and that's why they are not sold here.
Click to expand...
this isn't true. the US doesn't even use third party verification for starters of how incorrect this statement is.
 
Lith1um said:
Because I think it's fucking rediculous to shove more diesel fuel into an engine than it can burn, just to entertain a bunch of mother breathers. Particularly the type who does it while screaming "fuck the environment" in a backwards ass rebel yell.
Click to expand...

I kinda agree that redneck culture is a bad thing, but I think its more of a matter of civilized, intelligent society lending a helping hand to make people who, by no fault of their own, are born into a culture where huge pickup trucks, NASCAR, drunken gun ownership, and life in a trailer court are held in high esteem. They're taught from the first moment of their lives to speak with one of those awful southern accents and to believe in the message of country music so you can't blame them. The best thing to be done about that is to offer to help by sharing knowledge and insightful thoughts that the higher tiers of the nation's social strata have learned so they have the mental tools available to grow as people, waste less, stay sober, and have fewer children within their own family trees.
 
Huge pickup trucks are awesome, but I would not own one. Semi stacks in the back of a pickup bed just take up valuable space for hauling stuff, like sheets of plywood,etc. NASCAR is OK, but I don't watch it as I would rather watch college football. I support people's right to get drunk and I think everyone should have the right to bear arms with out restriction. However, being drunk and using weapons should not go together, that is just a recipe for disaster. Not everyone can afford a brick and morter house, but it isn't the wisest thing to put your trailer in the middle of tornado alley. I applaud home ownership of any kind, be it a trailer, a condo, a single family residence, a mansion or a teepee in the woods. Owning is better than renting. Southern accents are not bad at all at least when compared to the east coast , NewYork thug accent. There isn't anything wrong with the message of country music, at least it doesn't profess to bust a cap in some one and smoke some weed while drinking a forty on the street corner trying to sell crack. I am not from the south, but the times I've been there the people have always been friendly, pleasant and courteous. I am not a religious freak, rather I support all peoples rights to believe in what ever the fuck they want ;that's kink of the point of religious freedom. I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment and believe that it should not be infringed. I have no problems with rednecks, college elitists, professionals, trades people, etc. I'm not a racist, but I believe it is everyone's right to be one if they want to. I will listen to anyone's viewpoint on anything and only ask that in return, you listen to mine. I don't have any sisters so inbreading is out. Plus, I can read history; the Russian czars / royal family...didn't work out for them too well. I believe in climate change....the climate has and will always change. Nothing stays in a stagnation, is violates fundamental laws. For all of you hippy environmentalists, you are willing to place your faith in a bunch of model predictions that are not much more accurate than a weather forecast? You are so convinced that the world is fucked, that you are willing to give up basic freedoms because a model that is trying to predict 20 to 30 years in the future tells you to... they can't even get the weather right next week....and you call me dumb....take a look in the mirror.

CreepyUncleGoogle said:
I kinda agree that redneck culture is a bad thing, but I think its more of a matter of civilized, intelligent society lending a helping hand to make people who, by no fault of their own, are born into a culture where huge pickup trucks, NASCAR, drunken gun ownership, and life in a trailer court are held in high esteem. They're taught from the first moment of their lives to speak with one of those awful southern accents and to believe in the message of country music so you can't blame them. The best thing to be done about that is to offer to help by sharing knowledge and insightful thoughts that the higher tiers of the nation's social strata have learned so they have the mental tools available to grow as people, waste less, stay sober, and have fewer children within their own family trees.
Click to expand...
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
I kinda agree that redneck culture is a bad thing, but I think its more of a matter of civilized, intelligent society lending a helping hand to make people who, by no fault of their own, are born into a culture where huge pickup trucks, NASCAR, drunken gun ownership, and life in a trailer court are held in high esteem. They're taught from the first moment of their lives to speak with one of those awful southern accents and to believe in the message of country music so you can't blame them. The best thing to be done about that is to offer to help by sharing knowledge and insightful thoughts that the higher tiers of the nation's social strata have learned so they have the mental tools available to grow as people, waste less, stay sober, and have fewer children within their own family trees.
Click to expand...

As a west coast non-redneck reading what you said, this is one of the most condescending, patronizing, effete, snide pieces of superiority complex screeds I've ever read.
 
Jarod888 said:
Huge pickup trucks are awesome, but I would not own one. Semi stacks in the back of a pickup bed just take up valuable space for hauling stuff, like sheets of plywood,etc. NASCAR is OK, but I don't watch it as I would rather watch college football. I support people's right to get drunk and I think everyone should have the right to bear arms with out restriction. However, being drunk and using weapons should not go together, that is just a recipe for disaster. Not everyone can afford a brick and morter house, but it isn't the wisest thing to put your trailer in the middle of tornado alley. I applaud home ownership of any kind, be it a trailer, a condo, a single family residence, a mansion or a teepee in the woods. Owning is better than renting. Southern accents are not bad at all at least when compared to the east coast , NewYork thug accent. There isn't anything wrong with the message of country music, at least it doesn't profess to bust a cap in some one and smoke some weed while drinking a forty on the street corner trying to sell crack. I am not from the south, but the times I've been there the people have always been friendly, pleasant and courteous. I am not a religious freak, rather I support all peoples rights to believe in what ever the fuck they want ;that's kink of the point of religious freedom. I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment and believe that it should not be infringed. I have no problems with rednecks, college elitists, professionals, trades people, etc. I'm not a racist, but I believe it is everyone's right to be one if they want to. I will listen to anyone's viewpoint on anything and only ask that in return, you listen to mine. I don't have any sisters so inbreading is out. Plus, I can read history; the Russian czars / royal family...didn't work out for them too well. I believe in climate change....the climate has and will always change. Nothing stays in a stagnation, is violates fundamental laws. For all of you hippy environmentalists, you are willing to place your faith in a bunch of model predictions that are not much more accurate than a weather forecast? You are so convinced that the world is fucked, that you are willing to give up basic freedoms because a model that is trying to predict 20 to 30 years in the future tells you to... they can't even get the weather right next week....and you call me dumb....take a look in the mirror.
Click to expand...

I didn't mention the environment or climate change in my post, nor the merits of home ownership, or the value or not of being able to move quantities of bulky objects around (which doesn't require making silly looking changes to an automobile). I also didn't call you dumb.

And this is the kind of thing I advocate that we step into and help. Reading comprehension is one of those crucial elements that needs to be bolstered in southern um... "good ole' boy" culture (I hesitate to use that, but I think it's the best way to isolate the population segment I'm talking about that specifically needs our assistance in order to grow).

Methadras said:
As a west coast non-redneck reading what you said, this is one of the most condescending, patronizing, effete, snide pieces of superiority complex screeds I've ever read.
Click to expand...

I totally get that and it's okay to have pride in your upbringing and reasonable to respond to an offer for help with hostility. That's completely understandable, but I think that the culture you take pride in is already fading away slowly by the introduction of information services and better quality education along with the inevitable migration of other cultures into traditionally "redneck" areas of the US. Changes are coming and I'd ask you to work really hard to look past your limitations, which I know is super difficult, and accept the enlightenment the higher social classes will someday offer.
 
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