EPA Overhauling Emissions Tests To Catch “Defeat Device” Cheaters

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The Environmental Protection Agency should make Volkswagen foot the bill for all the the upgrades and changes that have to be implemented.

A week after ordering Volkswagen to recall 500,000 vehicles that contain “defeat devices” designed to cheat emissions tests, the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes to ensure vehicles meet standards not only in controlled environments but in real-world driving conditions.
 
The Environmental Protection Agency should make Volkswagen foot the bill for all the the upgrades and changes that have to be implemented.

A week after ordering Volkswagen to recall 500,000 vehicles that contain “defeat devices” designed to cheat emissions tests, the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes to ensure vehicles meet standards not only in controlled environments but in real-world driving conditions.

So the EPA is going [H] :D:D
 
The last I knew, the states that actually do emissions testing have it set up something like this.

1. If a car is below a certain age, all they do is verify that the engine check light is not on. No other testing is done.

2. If a car falls out of that range but is not above a certain age, it goes through the normal idle, load, and then after load idle testing.

3. If a car is above the age of testing, it is just exempted from any testing.

4. The testing equipment is a probe that is stuck in the tailpipe.

What doesn't make sense to me is, how exactly did VW circumvent this? I mean, the load test only goes up to about 45mph. I would not expect any mfg to even worry about meeting some stupid power and fuel mileage sucking "standard" above what the vehicles are tested at.

Having the test go over that speed will cause it to be more dangerous. What happens if the tester malfunctions while you have the wheels spinning at some stupid high speed? It would launch you off the tester into a brick wall or cause some other equally dangerous situation. That's what would happen.

A fuel powered car is not going to pass emissions "standards" under all situations. But the EPA could care less. They basically want to apply some arbitrary standards to every vehicle no matter if those standards are possible or not.

In AZ, on older cars, you basically take the car in to get tested, see where it fails, and then detune it so it will pass. Then after you pass the test, you adjust it back to where you had it before. The system is so stupid.

If I kept my cars tuned to pass emissions in AZ year round, I would have lost at least 7mpg on my 280z. Not sure about other cars.. but basically the tuning to make them pass made them run horrible.
 
I wonder how this will affect third party firmware on cars. Will be interested to see if these are now detected.
 
The Environmental Protection Agency should make Volkswagen foot the bill for all the the upgrades and changes that have to be implemented.

A week after ordering Volkswagen to recall 500,000 vehicles that contain “defeat devices” designed to cheat emissions tests, the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes to ensure vehicles meet standards not only in controlled environments but in real-world driving conditions.

Yeah, no.

While its not the EPA's fault that VW cheated, its the EPA's fault that they had a test that was so easily defeated. The EPA should have to foot the bill.
 
The last I knew, the states that actually do emissions testing have it set up something like this.

1. If a car is below a certain age, all they do is verify that the engine check light is not on. No other testing is done.

2. If a car falls out of that range but is not above a certain age, it goes through the normal idle, load, and then after load idle testing.

3. If a car is above the age of testing, it is just exempted from any testing.

4. The testing equipment is a probe that is stuck in the tailpipe.

California never did tailpipe testing for diesel cars or light trucks; before 2010, they weren't required to do a smog check at all. They were added in 2010 as part of the odb-2 only smog check; they do interface with the port, and read more than just the engine light. For diesels, 1998 and newer does odb-2 only, 1997 and older doesn't do a check. For gas, 2000 and newer does odb-2 only, 1976 to 1999 does dyno + tailpipe.

The California dyno + tailpipe is done at idle, and two fixed speeds. Super simple way to cheat would be set 'enhanced emissions compliance' mode when the car starts, and turn it off if there is significant steering input, or if vehicle speed has a normal looking variation (maybe something with the brakes too). It's been a while, but I think they usually drive the car onto the dyno, turn it off, strap it down, put a probe in its tailpipe and then turn it back on to do the test; if it's not common to turn it off while you get set up, you could have enhanced mode come on after a few minutes of idling.
 
I wonder how this will affect third party firmware on cars. Will be interested to see if these are now detected.
Well i mean with aftermarket ecu you could easily just tune your car to pass smog then tune it for performance after you get your pass.
 
I was surprised that the investigation started with and followed through on by activists and not any government entity that is 'testing' these 11,000,000 examples distributed throughout many countries. I wonder how many countries testing regimes were duped/cared? The truth is out there, so they can cash in now regardless, but not very proactive in the whole ordeal.

Its no different than cars that are designed to specific crash test standards that get noticed when the test changes. Or heck, when they changed the mileage test and the 'same' car on a lot that were one model year different had two different mileage ratings despite no mechanical differences between them, just the test that defines the numbers.

Here in my state they almost allowed newer model cars to be tested every other year but the entities that issue the tests were able to successfully lobby that they would lose too much money if that were to happen; so yearly testing continues. Clearly it is due to an abundance of concern for the environment.

Back on track: If you give everyone the same map, someone will somehow find a shorter route than everyone else. In this case 11,000,000 times.
 
California never did tailpipe testing for diesel cars or light trucks; before 2010, they weren't required to do a smog check at all. They were added in 2010 as part of the odb-2 only smog check; they do interface with the port, and read more than just the engine light. For diesels, 1998 and newer does odb-2 only, 1997 and older doesn't do a check. For gas, 2000 and newer does odb-2 only, 1976 to 1999 does dyno + tailpipe.

The California dyno + tailpipe is done at idle, and two fixed speeds. Super simple way to cheat would be set 'enhanced emissions compliance' mode when the car starts, and turn it off if there is significant steering input, or if vehicle speed has a normal looking variation (maybe something with the brakes too). It's been a while, but I think they usually drive the car onto the dyno, turn it off, strap it down, put a probe in its tailpipe and then turn it back on to do the test; if it's not common to turn it off while you get set up, you could have enhanced mode come on after a few minutes of idling.

They actually strap the front wheels down in CA on the dyno test? They don't do that in AZ.

They also don't turn the car off prior to the dyno test.

This whole thing makes me wonder how the older Toyota Camrys that had the button on the console to switch between economy and power mode would fare in an emissions test. Not sure if it actually affected tuning or just shifting rpms.
 
The real-world conditions angle is long overdue IMO. If you have an AWD car, you are pretty much exempt from any dyno testing whatsoever.

I learned this when I purchased my first AWD car on the used market. I couldn't believe it at first.
 
The real-world conditions angle is long overdue IMO. If you have an AWD car, you are pretty much exempt from any dyno testing whatsoever.

I learned this when I purchased my first AWD car on the used market. I couldn't believe it at first.

AWD dynos are expensive as hell.
 
California never did tailpipe testing for diesel cars or light trucks; before 2010, they weren't required to do a smog check at all. They were added in 2010 as part of the odb-2 only smog check; they do interface with the port, and read more than just the engine light. For diesels, 1998 and newer does odb-2 only, 1997 and older doesn't do a check. For gas, 2000 and newer does odb-2 only, 1976 to 1999 does dyno + tailpipe.
Bought a bus to basically be a hauling truck, don't need to stop at weigh stations either, and we specifically aimed for prior to 1997 specifically because of this.


The California dyno + tailpipe is done at idle, and two fixed speeds. Super simple way to cheat would be set 'enhanced emissions compliance' mode when the car starts, and turn it off if there is significant steering input, or if vehicle speed has a normal looking variation (maybe something with the brakes too). It's been a while, but I think they usually drive the car onto the dyno, turn it off, strap it down, put a probe in its tailpipe and then turn it back on to do the test; if it's not common to turn it off while you get set up, you could have enhanced mode come on after a few minutes of idling.
While I have loved the 9+ years of my Prius not ever costing me $40-60 for an emission test tax, I hated when I sold my previous car because it cost me another $1000+ to fix since the fucker was idling a too fast, even though all the EMISSIONS were well below the guideline, because it was idling fast I was screwed, and not knowing why of course cost me money since the fucking mechanics checked a few things out before hand that I'm sure they knew weren't the cause.
 
Yeah, no.

While its not the EPA's fault that VW cheated, its the EPA's fault that they had a test that was so easily defeated. The EPA should have to foot the bill.

Yes. I agree. Because the poor corporate scumbags...the poor scum sucking kocksuckers need the money. Will somebody think of the poor corporate scum?!!!
 
What doesn't make sense to me is, how exactly did VW circumvent this?

This will make you facepalm: the defeat device simply checked to see if the steering wheel was being turned.

"Michigan’s Stefanopolou says computer sensors monitored the steering column. Under normal driving conditions, the column oscillates as the driver negotiates turns. But during emissions testing, the wheels of the car move, but the steering wheel doesn’t. That seems to have have been the signal for the “defeat device” to turn the catalytic scrubber up to full power, allowing the car to pass the test."

http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/09/the-study-that-brought-down-volkswagen/407149/
 
I love my jetta tdi and I really hope the fix turns out to be quick and simple or have an option for a vw buyback, then I can get myself a gas guzzling pickup truck, thx EPA.
 
I was surprised that the investigation started with and followed through on by activists and not any government entity.

Well, not exactly, on either the activists or the non-governmental parts. The whole thing started when the EU's Joint Research Centre (doesn't this count as a governmental entity?) noted some discrepancies with emissions testings in Europe of diesel cars, and thought that the tighter emission controls weren't working to reduce the emissions as much as they should be. They weren't looking for corporate trickery at all; they just thought the tests themselves weren't properly designed. Tests were contracted out to be done on American vehicles because the regulations were even tighter, so they thought they would be getting a good control group from those vehicles to compare to the looser European vehicles.
 
The netflix of porn eh...
Nutflix?
Titflix?
Fetflix?
I could go on but I have a feeling I'm already over the line...
 
Headline should read "Government shocked to learn it cannot change physics through regulation, continues anyway".
 
The netflix of porn eh...
Nutflix?
Titflix?
Fetflix?
I could go on but I have a feeling I'm already over the line...

Oh what a time to click the wrong tab and not have edit.

latest
 
its the EPA's fault that they had a test that was so easily defeated
That is some backward ass 'blame the victim' sort of thinking you're exhibiting there dude.

Do you also blame shop owners for having easily steal-able goods out in front of the store or by the register?

Or a women for getting raped if she is wearing suggestive clothing, 'looks like she was asking for it' as it were?

I can't help but wonder if after the EPA redesigns their test hardware/procedure if some people in the industry, and of course various pundits and congressmen, a few years down the road start complaining about it as an example of govt. over reach, anti business, govt. waste, etc. and ignore why these changes were made. Or better yet down play them with a 'not all car manufacturers' angle in the media.
 
"Government shocked to learn it cannot change physics through regulation, continues anyway".
Corruption in business is a law of physics?! Is it some sort of quantum mechanical quirk that forces businessmen to break the law or what?

Ideologies, even the ones you really like, aren't reflections of reality.
 
That is some backward ass 'blame the victim' sort of thinking you're exhibiting there dude.

Do you also blame shop owners for having easily steal-able goods out in front of the store or by the register?

Or a women for getting raped if she is wearing suggestive clothing, 'looks like she was asking for it' as it were?

I can't help but wonder if after the EPA redesigns their test hardware/procedure if some people in the industry, and of course various pundits and congressmen, a few years down the road start complaining about it as an example of govt. over reach, anti business, govt. waste, etc. and ignore why these changes were made. Or better yet down play them with a 'not all car manufacturers' angle in the media.

Comparing cheating on some arbitrary government bullshit test to raping a woman is just plain stupid.
 
It's likely that what VW did is actually legal under California law. The law only requires that the vehicle meet the emission standard at the time of testing, which it did. Changing the settings after the test was over isn't covered. This is, of course, an immensely stupid way to have written such a law, but California has a tendency toward well-meaning but poorly drafted laws and regulations that lead to legal shenanigans. Facing a minor hit, VW might just have rolled over to soften the damage to their reputation. Threaten them with a multi-billion dollar fine and they'll hire hordes of flesh-eating lawyers to get out from under.
 
Comparing cheating on some arbitrary government bullshit test to raping a woman is just plain stupid.
The logic underlying both is the same so its valid.

If the logic you use allows for all sorts of horrible things as 'reasonable' is it good or horrible logic?

Why its almost as if, by using an more extreme example of the same logic, I was trying to make a point. I would however also point out I first used a more mundane example too in that same post which you seem to have ignored.
 
The EPA can go fuck themselves. VW did every TDI owner a favor.

What you did with your two Nvidia GTX 970s after the 3.5GB scandal:

Bladestorm said:
Newegg finally caved and let me return my cards, though for store credit only.

I'll probably sell my 4K G-sync monitor, go back to 1440p (FreeSync?), and get a 290X or wait for a 390X.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1041427074&highlight=#post1041427074

WV does essentially the same thing on a much larger scale and you applaud them. That's some nice hypocrisy there.
 
It's likely that what VW did is actually legal under California law. The law only requires that the vehicle meet the emission standard at the time of testing, which it did. Changing the settings after the test was over isn't covered. This is, of course, an immensely stupid way to have written such a law, but California has a tendency toward well-meaning but poorly drafted laws and regulations that lead to legal shenanigans.

Citation needed.

Here, I'll even help you out - the legislation you speak of might be here, but actually searching through all that to back up your statement is your job, not mine.
 
He is just parroting a meme that is currently making the rounds on all the far right sites at the moment. He probably doesn't actually know the first thing about the law.
 
maybe a dumb question but in the 9.4 years ive been a member of this forum ive never really looked in this section before. Out of sheer boredom i decided to check it out and i gotta ask why in the fack does every post contain a link that opens a new page with the same exact text and link as the first one requiring you to click the same thing twice to get the actual story? very freaking pointless and annoying in my opinion but there must be a valid reason for this repetitive behavior and i gotta know what it is, thanks. ;)
 
Corruption in business is a law of physics?! Is it some sort of quantum mechanical quirk that forces businessmen to break the law or what?

Ideologies, even the ones you really like, aren't reflections of reality.

Emissions regulations are attempts to bypass the laws of physics. [H] posters of all people should know that there is only so much efficiency to be gained from an existing system. You cannot simply will another 20 FPS into being. Likewise, you cannot simply will another 10 MPG into being. Reality does not work that way.

To raise the average MPG of their vehicle fleets, auto makers have put out electric mini deathtraps that no one buys. They're wasting millions of dollars and resources building things that no one wants, to meet an arbitrary number set by a person or committee who've never engineered so much as a paper bag.

Government: combining extreme levels of intrusion and control of all facets of life with low employee competence.
 
I don't understand the hatred of the EPA in this thread. They didn't even discover the change in emissions, European Regulators did. The EPA confirmed it.

And the fallout for all of this is hardly a USA or EPA exclusive issue. VW suspended sales of their diesels, and is facing regulatory fines from nearly every European country in which these vehicles were sold.
 
I don't understand the hatred of the EPA in this thread. They didn't even discover the change in emissions, European Regulators did. The EPA confirmed it.

And the fallout for all of this is hardly a USA or EPA exclusive issue. VW suspended sales of their diesels, and is facing regulatory fines from nearly every European country in which these vehicles were sold.

people dont hate the epa because of this, they were hated long long ago. Their asinine regulations are the reason we dont have 50+ mpg small diesel cars in the usa. Their regulations cause vehicles to be more expensive to produce, have expensive complicated emissions systems prone to failure and get way lower MPG than they would be capable of without these systems. While i believe some pollution reducing measures are necessary they are going a tad overboard trying to get zero emissions when the technology isnt really economical or good enough yet, ban wood fires to heat your home, or while camping and other such nonsense.
 
The last I knew, the states that actually do emissions testing have it set up something like this.

What doesn't make sense to me is, how exactly did VW circumvent this? I mean, the load test only goes up to about 45mph. I would not expect any mfg to even worry about meeting some stupid power and fuel mileage sucking "standard" above what the vehicles are tested at.

This really about the EPA federal certification, than state tests (which are actually a lot easier to pass).

It wouldn't take any competent programmer more than few minutes to write the code to check that the front wheels are spinning, and the back wheels are not (I'm on a Dyno and being emission tested).
 
If you're on VW's side in this, you're full stop a giant moron. I'm impressed you rember to breathe. O say this as a TDI owner with an affected car (Passat TDI)

People hate the EPA because they are global warming deniers. If you think emissions do nothing then limiting them just hurts business with no perceived benefit. So again morons.
 
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