VW Used Software In 482K Diesels To Skirt US Clean-Air Rules

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It's going to be hard to claim ignorance when your company actually installed emissions-control software on almost a half million cars that is specifically designed to beat emission testing. :eek: If you are VW owner, you'll probably want to read this follow-up article.

EPA officials called the software a “defeat device” that allowed VW and Audi vehicles to fulfill emissions standards in lab testing, but emit nitrogen oxides at up to 40 times allowable levels in real-world driving. Under federal law, the EPA can levy a maximum possible fine of $37,500 per vehicle, EPA officials said on a conference call with reporters today, meaning VW and Audi face potential fines of up to $18 billion for the alleged violations.
 
Was reading about this on Friday. This is a BIG deal. VW did this knowingly. They actually admitted to it instead of lawyering up. When was the last time a large corporation threw in the towel instead of deny, deny, deny?

If you are a VW owner, the difference in mileage/mileage is really insignificant, but that's not the point. I would be more worried about what other corners they are cutting, and from my experience with recent VW's that is a whole lot.
 
Yeah, this was pretty red handed.

They probably deemed they would be better off owning up, punishing those involved (unless this direction came from the top, which I doubt).

That being said, their stock price dropped by a fifth today when the markets opened.
 
If you are a VW owner, the difference in mileage/mileage is really insignificant, but that's not the point. I would be more worried about what other corners they are cutting, and from my experience with recent VW's that is a whole lot.

From the article (highlights by me):

EPA officials called the software a “defeat device” that allowed VW and Audi vehicles to fulfill emissions standards in lab testing, but emit nitrogen oxides at up to 40 times allowable levels in real-world driving.

Now what do you do with 500k cars that can't pass emissions? Damn. :eek:
 
Now what do you do with 500k cars that can't pass emissions? Damn. :eek:

Yeah, that was my thought too.

Not only is there the potential $18 billion fine, but VW could be forced to buy back as many as 500k vehicles or somehow recall and alter them to make sure they pass emissions.

Their customers certainly won't be happy if they fail emissions testing and can't drive them.
 
*golf clap for VW*

busted.jpg
 
From the article (highlights by me):



Now what do you do with 500k cars that can't pass emissions? Damn. :eek:

Actually they already pass the emissions test, since the software keeps the emissions in range during testing. It's just the real world driving that they are out of compliance :)

They can fix this by install a software update without the bypass coding.
Of course this will likely mean worse mileage and less power.
So the real question is, how much are they going to pay each car owner since the updated car will no longer have the same performance/mileage they paid for?

My guess, is there will be a large fine (more money for the government), a recall where they update or replace the cars computer, and for each original owner who brings the car in to be updated, a coupon good for $500 off the next VW they buy.
 
Have to wonder;

VW can just say;" 30K fine per car?? That's fine. We will just close down our US plants and toss 10K people out of work. No choice; have to pay your fine."
 
Have to wonder;

VW can just say;" 30K fine per car?? That's fine. We will just close down our US plants and toss 10K people out of work. No choice; have to pay your fine."

Hard to "toss out" 10,000 employees in the US when you only employ 2,000 in the country.

Works out to about $9,000,000 in fines per job. Sounds like the US comes out way ahead.
 
Have to wonder;

VW can just say;" 30K fine per car?? That's fine. We will just close down our US plants and toss 10K people out of work. No choice; have to pay your fine."

"Emissions testing? Ok, fine, but our cars won't pass and we'll have to close down our US plants and throw 10k people out of work."
 
Have to wonder;

VW can just say;" 30K fine per car?? That's fine. We will just close down our US plants and toss 10K people out of work. No choice; have to pay your fine."

They'd still have to pay the fine. I'm pretty sure that the USA is capable of enforcing their fines against foreign corporations. Especially from countries that have effectively no military.

This is disgraceful and it will keep me away from buying any Volkswagen Group (It's a lot of brands) vehicle for a long time and I don't even own one of the affected vehicles. If they're willing so do this, what else are they willing to do? If I owned one of these I'd be trying to get them to buy it back post haste. We have periodic emissions testing where I live and defeat devices are illegal, which means now that we know about it it has to be disabled. Effectively all of these cars will never pass the test, not without serious changes. It may not even be practical to retrofit them.
 
Sounds like a pretty good benefit to the customers. We modders have to pay extra to trick emissions equipment. VW gave it away for free.
 
They'd still have to pay the fine. I'm pretty sure that the USA is capable of enforcing their fines against foreign corporations. Especially from countries that have effectively no military.

What? What does a military have to do with collecting a fine? That's absurd.

However. There is a much much much more effective tool we have. If a country uses the dollar for any international transaction, then they are subject to our fines. That's why China wants out of the dollar standard.

The military part, just lol.
 
Now, I believe fines for violating emissions laws are appropriate, but the scale here seems a little bit off, especially coming as it does, right on the tails of the news of GM's fine for the ignition switch issue.

GM Was fined $900M for lying about and not correcting a safety issue resulting in the death of 124 people and the injury of an additional almost 300.

VW's fine for cheating on emissions tests would be 20 times higher than that?

Isn't safety more important than emissions?

If it were up to me, I'd fine VW the $900M and fine GM the $18B...

that being said, the safety issue, while handled catastrophically was not intentional. It's not like they intentionally bypassed safety regulations. They wound up with a bad design of a component, and failed to address it properly.

VW on the other hand has demonstrated intent, and that tends to make a difference in fines.
 
This was only for diesel cars, which didn't even need to be smog tested until recently.... I'm guessing the software fix was easier to implement than adding a bunch of smog equipment to existing/new vehicles.

And these cars are more efficient than those stupid smart cars (and a LOT safer)... We still have a 98 TDI with 350k miles that gets almost 50mpg....
 
What? What does a military have to do with collecting a fine? That's absurd.

However. There is a much much much more effective tool we have. If a country uses the dollar for any international transaction, then they are subject to our fines. That's why China wants out of the dollar standard.

The military part, just lol.

Agreed.

Even if Germany weren't our ally as part of NATO, we would never use military force to back up a fine or criminal charge. With most countries we have extradition treaties which help us in criminal cases. Not sure what happens in the case of civil fines against corporations, but I'm sure there is something similar there as well.
 
Who gives a shit? The EPA makes shit so strict that I'm sure 40 times what their rules are are probably pretty safe.

FWIW, I don't own a VW, so I'm not defending them to keep myself from feeling like I got duped. I'd buy a VW, though.
 
Since the corporate managers approved this "subroutine" to defeat emissions testing, it was not a software bug, shouldn't criminal charges be filed? Or since you can pay 11 figure fines you get a "get out of jail free card" :mad:
 
If the owners of a VAG car want to keep the performance ECU program will they be forced to switch out for the compliant flash update? Seems like the illegal performance version could become more desirable from an enthusiast perspective. Kind of like hiding an aftermarket flash from the dealership when having a car serviced.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041867081 said:
Isn't safety more important than emissions?

In America? No. Even doubly so when its a US based company that received US bail out money (GM). We, the country went easy on them.
 
@Zerathustra - the argument is likely to be "bad emissions cause health issues, including contributing to deaths"

You gotta give credit to VW for having the guts to try this. The fact that they got away with it for 10 years is pretty impressive. As the old saying goes, "if you ain't cheatin'...."

I heard someone say that VW might be able to beat this on a technicality, if the regulation is vague or written a certain way, like " meets emissions spec of X when tested..." Technically, their cars *do* pass those tests.

There's another side to this whole business, though, and that is this: are emissions regulations appropriate to the issues of today? When they were instituted, LA was shrouded in smog. Now, cars have far lower emissions, and LA's sky is (more or less) clear. Do the regulations need to stay as strict as they currently are, or could they be relaxed a bit so that engines can run more efficiently and produce less CO2?
 
The diesel emission regulations in this country are f'ed. Some cars/trucks when you remove the emission devices and get a proper tune, you get almost double the fuel mileage.

If I owned one of the effected vehicles, I wouldn't take it in for this recall.
 
Oh well, another superior technology about to die due to over regulation.

Sure seems like a convenient way to keep those evil diesels that get great fuel economy off the road in the usa.

Sure seems convenient that this all happens right as diesel finally starts to become cheaper than gasoline again.

Sure seems convenient that the fines are somehow utterly disproportionate to the offense... more than the price of the vehicle? That's not regulation, it's thuggery or extortion.

Did VW do it? If we simply take the story at face value without doing our own digging it looks like it. So let's assume they did for the sake of argument. A reasonable fine per vehicles sold in the USA? No. Just ban the cheating bastages from ever selling cars here again? No. Some idiotic cluster-fluck of a absurd number that could total 18 billion? Sounds GREAT!!!

It's makes the EPA look worse than VW. Which is nothing less than I expect from this country anymore.
 
Seems car companies are getting busted quite a lot lately. BMW got hit awhile back about lying on the MPG's for the Mini brand, they had to shave 4mpg off for numerous years.
 
Oh well, another superior technology about to die due to over regulation.
Some idiotic cluster-fluck of a absurd number that could total 18 billion? Sounds GREAT!!!

It's makes the EPA look worse than VW. Which is nothing less than I expect from this country anymore.

Huh? Way to take the situation and twist it to an anti-EPA stance. The fine *could* total $18bil - that max fine value is for companies that refuse to comply. Why don't you wait until they levy judgement before jumping to conclusions?

My guess is VW will be hit with a $10mil-ish fine. And they'll also be forced to:

- Fix the cars/software
- Make the customer whole (by fixing the cars or compensating the customer)
 
There are two things that cut down NOx... lower combustion temperatures(diesel likes high temp, better burn) and the use of the urea, more commonly known as DEF, or diesel exhaust fluid. I drive a '15 Jetta SEL TDi and a '12 F250 6.7l. My guess is VW had trouble getting the performance they wanted out of the engine while still letting the SCR system do it's intended job. Either that, or the DPF burn-out process (two different ways, late cylinder injection to toss some raw fuel into the DPF and get it to burn directly, or straight up get the exhaust gases as hot as the engine can handle to indirectly burn it clean) is the culprit. Or, they didn't want to market excessive DEF fill ups. I've got a little over 10k on the Jetta, and haven't added any DEF yet. Does make me wonder..
 
Zarathustra[H];1041867160 said:
Agreed.

Even if Germany weren't our ally as part of NATO, we would never use military force to back up a fine or criminal charge. With most countries we have extradition treaties which help us in criminal cases. Not sure what happens in the case of civil fines against corporations, but I'm sure there is something similar there as well.

Well they did sell nearly 600k automobiles in the US last year, not allowing them to sell anything in the US might be a good sized hit to them. While a fraction of their total global sales, it still is a significant market to be locked out of.
 
I'd be curious if the affected vehicles in the US pass the emissions testing in the EU without this defeat device? I know if Europe they have higher octane ratings, but not sure how that translates when it comes to diesel. Just wondering how different our product is than the Euro versions, enforcement of a different countries regulations and all...

Still, pretty ballsy to do this and admit doing it. I bet you can get a good deal on a used VW...
 
Sounds like a pretty good benefit to the customers. We modders have to pay extra to trick emissions equipment. VW gave it away for free.

None of my flashed ECU ROMs would auto-detect emissions testing equipment like VW implemented in their ROM, they had to be flashed back to stock to pass inspection! Jealous...
 
I'd be curious if the affected vehicles in the US pass the emissions testing in the EU without this defeat device? I know if Europe they have higher octane ratings, but not sure how that translates when it comes to diesel. Just wondering how different our product is than the Euro versions, enforcement of a different countries regulations and all...
The USA in general has the toughest emission standards in the world, such that diesels generally needs expensive additional emissions equipment to meet those requirements.

Interestingly, it seems that this issue was found out when a European organization testing Euro VWs couldn't get them to meet Euro standards and began testing US VWs to confirm that diesels could be made clean.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group
 
Sure seems convenient that this all happens right as diesel finally starts to become cheaper than gasoline again.
The EPA didn't catch this, the International Council on Clean Transportation a West Virginia University research team noticed emissions were very different in daily use than when undergoing testing. VW's been doing it for 7-8 years, they just didn't get caught until now. The fact it took so long is a testament to government incompetence, not malevolence.

Sure seems convenient that the fines are somehow utterly disproportionate to the offense... more than the price of the vehicle? That's not regulation, it's thuggery or extortion.

Did VW do it? If we simply take the story at face value without doing our own digging it looks like it. So let's assume they did for the sake of argument. A reasonable fine per vehicles sold in the USA? No. Just ban the cheating bastages from ever selling cars here again? No. Some idiotic cluster-fluck of a absurd number that could total 18 billion? Sounds GREAT!!!

It's makes the EPA look worse than VW. Which is nothing less than I expect from this country anymore.
Statutory fines are like that. In this case the fine is at worst 1.5x the value of the product. Are you proportionately more outraged by file sharing fines that are 25,000x the value of the product ($250,000 fine, $10 album)?
 
Who gives a shit? The EPA makes shit so strict that I'm sure 40 times what their rules are are probably pretty safe.

FWIW, I don't own a VW, so I'm not defending them to keep myself from feeling like I got duped. I'd buy a VW, though.

WIN!! I mean what's the big deal? Folks are acting like the sky is falling. What is the hit on mileage? What 44mpg to 43.6mpg?
 
Current administration waited until the 500,000 vehicles number was in the U.S. and decided to ring up an $18 billion dollar bill for VW. KACHING! Easy money.
 
Current administration waited until the 500,000 vehicles number was in the U.S. and decided to ring up an $18 billion dollar bill for VW. KACHING! Easy money.

If only there was something VW could have done to avoid being fined in the first place.... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
There's another side to this whole business, though, and that is this: are emissions regulations appropriate to the issues of today? When they were instituted, LA was shrouded in smog. Now, cars have far lower emissions, and LA's sky is (more or less) clear. Do the regulations need to stay as strict as they currently are, or could they be relaxed a bit so that engines can run more efficiently and produce less CO2?

Are you asking that regulations be reduced so that pollution levels can rise again?
 
None of my flashed ECU ROMs would auto-detect emissions testing equipment like VW implemented in their ROM, they had to be flashed back to stock to pass inspection! Jealous...

I know, right. Or in extreme cases a second ecu. Talk about value added. VW should license that software to tuners.
 
$18 Billion makes sense to me, if it is retaliation for the ridiculously high fines put upon a few American companies by EU governments.
As far as VW not paying it, just put 50-100% import tax on VW cars until it's paid off. Either they trash their stock value by having to bow out of the US market, or they pay the fine.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041867081 said:
Now, I believe fines for violating emissions laws are appropriate, but the scale here seems a little bit off, especially coming as it does, right on the tails of the news of GM's fine for the ignition switch issue.

GM Was fined $900M for lying about and not correcting a safety issue resulting in the death of 124 people and the injury of an additional almost 300.

VW's fine for cheating on emissions tests would be 20 times higher than that?

Isn't safety more important than emissions?

If it were up to me, I'd fine VW the $900M and fine GM the $18B...

that being said, the safety issue, while handled catastrophically was not intentional. It's not like they intentionally bypassed safety regulations. They wound up with a bad design of a component, and failed to address it properly.

VW on the other hand has demonstrated intent, and that tends to make a difference in fines.

With the EPA, they could care less about safety. It is all about their agenda to control everybody, using (debunked) claims about global warming being caused by such things as livestock flatulence and other equally stupid things such as vehicles.

It has been proven time and time again that a properly tuned car without all the useless "emissions" equipment will get better fuel mileage and have more power.. and in my own tests with a few different cars I owned will pass emissions tests even better then when they were new.

Follow the money....
 
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