Former Uber Driver Granted Unemployment Payments

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Although Uber claims this case wont "set any formal or binding precedent," what happens when more drivers come forward to claim unemployment benefits?

In the Employment Development Department case, a former driver filed for unemployment benefits last year. The EDD found that the ex-driver was entitled to receive benefits, and Uber appealed that decision on the grounds that their drivers are independent contractors, not employees. An administrative law judge found that Uber does act as an employer, regulating who they can and can’t pick up while logged in to the app, setting fares, and deactivating drivers who break the rules or receive too many bad reviews.
 
The sharing economy is like the regular economy, except that it doesn't need to follow any laws... said no sane person ever.
 
I mean I get that Uber is just pissed that it has pay unemployment for this, but I'm not sure why it would matter whether or not they were a contractor. I guess unemployment doesn't apply to them?

Welcome to the new world I guess, where everyone hired is a temporary contractor, and has just enough hours so they don't trigger any sort of benefits that have to be given.
 
So what I'm gathering is....

1. Become an uber drive.
2. Pick up 1 person and drive them for good measure.
3. Stop picking up people
4. Collect unemployment on my couch

BRILLIANT!
 
Cyraxx said:
So what I'm gathering is....

1. Become an uber drive.
2. Pick up 1 person and drive them for good measure.
3. Stop picking up people
4. Collect unemployment on my couch

BRILLIANT!
Click to expand...

YOU'VE CRACKED THE CODE! Welp, looks like I can retire early boys!
 
Cyraxx said:
So what I'm gathering is....

1. Become an uber drive.
2. Pick up 1 person and drive them for good measure.
3. Stop picking up people
4. Collect unemployment on my couch

BRILLIANT!
Click to expand...

So its like any shit job you can get easily?
 
Cyraxx said:
So what I'm gathering is....

1. Become an uber drive.
2. Pick up 1 person and drive them for good measure.
3. Stop picking up people
4. Collect unemployment on my couch

BRILLIANT!
Click to expand...

Yeah, except that's not how unemployment works. The amount of money you get in a week, and the total amount you get is going to depend upon how much you earn. Just looking up seems that if you make $1000 in a quarter (3 month) you'll get a weekly check for $42. Now if you can live off $42 a week, bravo, but I wouldn't watch TV, the bill might take most of your unemployment check.
 
This is terrible. Uber takes all the overhead away from drivers and gives them a simple task: pick someone or a group of people up and drive them to their destination of choice. Then get paid via Uber. Effectively they help people monetize their cars. And then because my fellow americans who happen to be driving for uber are lazy shits they want to be seen as employees.

Capitalism in America is dying and we're all witnessing it.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yeah, except that's not how unemployment works. The amount of money you get in a week, and the total amount you get is going to depend upon how much you earn. Just looking up seems that if you make $1000 in a quarter (3 month) you'll get a weekly check for $42. Now if you can live off $42 a week, bravo, but I wouldn't watch TV, the bill might take most of your unemployment check.
Click to expand...


Yeah seriously... Pretty basic shit.

Most states you can't even get benefits unless you work at least a certain amount of time, like 3 months. At that point you get the least amount of benefits, 25% of what you made in that 3 months I believe. That's 25% of what your weekly/biweekly check was. So basically chump change. I think once you work for a year you can get up to 75% of what you made in a quarter.

You still pay taxes and some places do appeal, if the appeal succeeds then you must pay back those benefits. It's actually really easy to get benefits... Even if you're fired. The catch is that 6 months after you got checks they will tell you that you need to pay it back. So basically then you just owe them. Even with that, you can still get benefits but they take 1/3rd of them to pay your balance.
 
I'm confused. We've hired contractors before and told them when to be at work, what to do, and gotten rid of the ones that weren't pulling their weight... yet they were not company employees. They weren't driving people around, but instead upgrading/replacing large numbers of computer systems. I guess by this ruling they should have been employees of the company? So how exactly is an independent contractor not an employee? When they get paid to do whatever they feel like with no oversight, requirements, or repercussions?
 
farscapesg1 said:
So how exactly is an independent contractor not an employee? When they get paid to do whatever they feel like with no oversight, requirements, or repercussions?
Click to expand...
There are several tests used to determine whether a contractor or other "non-employee" is controlled by the company. The administrative judge found Uber to be acting as an employer based on those tests, particularly because of how much control Uber had over that driver.

Plenty of companies probably step on the wrong side of the line, but it doesn't become an issue unless the "independent contractor" complains to the state DLSE.
 
farscapesg1 said:
I'm confused. We've hired contractors before and told them when to be at work, what to do, and gotten rid of the ones that weren't pulling their weight... yet they were not company employees. They weren't driving people around, but instead upgrading/replacing large numbers of computer systems.
Click to expand...
Most likely your company:

1) were paying them much more than what an equivalent employee would get
2) is not in the business of upgrading and replacing computer systems
3) while telling them what you wanted done, left it up to them as the best way to do it.
 
Converge said:
Yeah seriously... Pretty basic shit.

Most states you can't even get benefits unless you work at least a certain amount of time, like 3 months. At that point you get the least amount of benefits, 25% of what you made in that 3 months I believe. That's 25% of what your weekly/biweekly check was. So basically chump change. I think once you work for a year you can get up to 75% of what you made in a quarter.

You still pay taxes and some places do appeal, if the appeal succeeds then you must pay back those benefits. It's actually really easy to get benefits... Even if you're fired. The catch is that 6 months after you got checks they will tell you that you need to pay it back. So basically then you just owe them. Even with that, you can still get benefits but they take 1/3rd of them to pay your balance.
Click to expand...

You have most of it right on the nose. Two important caveats: most states cap unemployment benefits at six months, and the percentage of salary thing only holds up to a cap (it was a $415/week maximum when I was laid off last year, but it varies from state to state). People were able to stay on longer a few years back, but that was thanks to the feds picking up the tab. They aren't any longer, so extended benefits are gone.

This is a big thing for Uber because they don't want to be an employer (even though they probably are by the IRS's definition). Employers have to pay SS tax, unemployment, etc.
 
farscapesg1 said:
I'm confused. We've hired contractors before and told them when to be at work, what to do, and gotten rid of the ones that weren't pulling their weight... yet they were not company employees. They weren't driving people around, but instead upgrading/replacing large numbers of computer systems. I guess by this ruling they should have been employees of the company? So how exactly is an independent contractor not an employee? When they get paid to do whatever they feel like with no oversight, requirements, or repercussions?
Click to expand...

Better hope nobody files a complaint, or your company may be sued out of business.
 
pxc said:
There are several tests used to determine whether a contractor or other "non-employee" is controlled by the company. The administrative judge found Uber to be acting as an employer based on those tests, particularly because of how much control Uber had over that driver.

Plenty of companies probably step on the wrong side of the line, but it doesn't become an issue unless the "independent contractor" complains to the state DLSE.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. The IRS also has a page devoted to this:
 
westrock2000 said:
Well that's seems like it would apply to everyone. Well everyone except "noodle boy"
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't. That view just shows how widespread the abuse of contract labor is.

There's a huge difference between "fix this leaky faucet" or "install this network switch here" where the work can be completed with little to no further direction, and "when you log into this app, you must accept any rate and customers we send you, not do other driving business during this time, and meet ratings given by prior customers or be cut off from the service." A real contractor simply needs to meet the completion standards (time, quality, materials) for the task.
 
* or possibly codes, regulations or other standards if applicable for the work
 
gigatexal said:
This is terrible. Uber takes all the overhead away from drivers and gives them a simple task: pick someone or a group of people up and drive them to their destination of choice. Then get paid via Uber. Effectively they help people monetize their cars. And then because my fellow americans who happen to be driving for uber are lazy shits they want to be seen as employees.

Capitalism in America is dying and we're all witnessing it.
Click to expand...


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, because you've got it backwards. Uber actually pushes all the overhead out to their drivers. The drivers are the ones footing the bill for their cars, insurance, maintenance and associated Uber royalty. .So Uber pushes out all the variable costs of doing business, which leaves their revenue stream stable and predictable. I will also guarantee that anyone making a living at Uber isn't "a lazy shit" because their probably putting in 12- 14 hour days to make that living.
 
gigatexal said:
This is terrible. Uber takes all the overhead away from drivers and gives them a simple task: pick someone or a group of people up and drive them to their destination of choice. Then get paid via Uber. Effectively they help people monetize their cars. And then because my fellow americans who happen to be driving for uber are lazy shits they want to be seen as employees.

Capitalism in America is dying and we're all witnessing it.
Click to expand...

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic

Henry Ford took all the overhead away from workers and gave them a simple task: Turn a screw. Paint a panel. Carry a bucket. Then get paid via paycheck. Effectively he helped people monetize their time. God forbid they wished to be seen as employees or be part of a union.

CAPITALISM IS DYING
 
gigatexal said:
This is terrible. Uber takes all the overhead away from drivers and gives them a simple task: pick someone or a group of people up and drive them to their destination of choice. Then get paid via Uber. Effectively they help people monetize their cars. And then because my fellow americans who happen to be driving for uber are lazy shits they want to be seen as employees.

Capitalism in America is dying and we're all witnessing it.
Click to expand...

So umm, how would you define an employee vs a contractor?

If they rented out their cars, and Uber paid for the upkeep, gas, insurance, and transportation when the owner's car wasn't available to them I would agree with your assessment that Uber helped them monetize their cars.

As it stands, it sounds more like Uber employed them as taxi drivers, driving and maintaining their their own vehicles, most responsibility than most cabbies have!
 
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm a contractor, and the last thing I want or need are laws governing the compensation I choose to negotiate with my clients. If I want to get paid $2 an hour to lick urinals, that should be between me and whoever needs a clean urinal.

What I don't like about this is the fact that everything was understood before anyone chose to drive for Uber, right? Can I sue Carl's Jr. because manning the fry station wasn't what I thought it would be?
 
I'm 100% with uber on this. 1. you know what you're getting into when you apply to be a driver. 2. there's no set hours or anything or even any minimums that you're required to drive, no routes you have to do. Hell I signed up 6 months ago just to see how it was...still haven't driven haven't had time to clean out my car. If that's not contract work, then what is? 3. Other than negligence or raping someone how do you get fired from uber? I would hope those people wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits even as a regular employee of a company. And if you voluntarily quit you don't get unemployment either.
 
jasondhsd said:
I'm 100% with uber on this. 1. you know what you're getting into when you apply to be a driver. 2. there's no set hours or anything or even any minimums that you're required to drive, no routes you have to do. Hell I signed up 6 months ago just to see how it was...still haven't driven haven't had time to clean out my car. If that's not contract work, then what is? 3. Other than negligence or raping someone how do you get fired from uber? I would hope those people wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits even as a regular employee of a company. And if you voluntarily quit you don't get unemployment either.
Click to expand...

Average less than a 4.6 rating over your last 50 rides. Then have to take a 'class' to get reactivated...that they charge $100 for.
http://uberpeople.net/threads/whats-the-lowest-rating-before-being-deactivated.26415/#post-347204
 
potency said:
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm a contractor, and the last thing I want or need are laws governing the compensation I choose to negotiate with my clients. If I want to get paid $2 an hour to lick urinals, that should be between me and whoever needs a clean urinal.
Click to expand...
It's not though, there are certain levels of protection to ensure that the most desperate people don't end up being virtual slaves, or causing a race to the bottom.

What I don't like about this is the fact that everything was understood before anyone chose to drive for Uber, right? Can I sue Carl's Jr. because manning the fry station wasn't what I thought it would be?
Click to expand...
But Uber has continually changed its terms; reducing rates, allowing older vehicles to get more drivers, increasing its commission, forced drivers into new services like Pool, all of which negatively impact the driver. And besides, many drivers were misled by advertising promising high gross earnings that excludes Uber's cut and the costs of driving. After driving awhile, now they realize just how little they earned.
 
Uber: Further proof that in absence of regulation, there will be a race to the bottom, justified by exhortations of "freedom" and "innovation."

I don't like regular taxis either. But just because Company A is bad doesn't mean Company B should be able to ignore all the rules even if it does improve on what Company A offers.

"Our car gets 60MPG, does 0-60 in 3 seconds, costs $25,000...and has no safety features of any sort!"
 
Weasel,

You're probably right. but they make more than taxi drivers who work just as hard if not harder? Yep they do make more. And it was uber who created the business that they're profiting from so I can see how it can be exploitative but they're much better off monetarily. Otherwise they'd not be driving for uber or if they wanted to they'd be taxi drivers.
 
potency said:
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm a contractor, and the last thing I want or need are laws governing the compensation I choose to negotiate with my clients. If I want to get paid $2 an hour to lick urinals, that should be between me and whoever needs a clean urinal.

What I don't like about this is the fact that everything was understood before anyone chose to drive for Uber, right? Can I sue Carl's Jr. because manning the fry station wasn't what I thought it would be?
Click to expand...

Thats the thing, you as a contractor get to negotiate/bid on work, uber drivers do not.

jasondhsd said:
I'm 100% with uber on this. 1. you know what you're getting into when you apply to be a driver. 2. there's no set hours or anything or even any minimums that you're required to drive, no routes you have to do. Hell I signed up 6 months ago just to see how it was...still haven't driven haven't had time to clean out my car. If that's not contract work, then what is? 3. Other than negligence or raping someone how do you get fired from uber? I would hope those people wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits even as a regular employee of a company. And if you voluntarily quit you don't get unemployment either.
Click to expand...

Do the drivers get to set their rate? do the drivers submit an invoice? does uber have any control over the driver other than "drive this person from point a to point b?"

Uber, like a lot of companies looking to increase profits the "easy" way, are slapping the label of independent contractor on people who should be employees. This means the "independent contractor" now has to pay all costs and taxes and Uber gets to pocket more money.
 
SonicTron said:
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic

Henry Ford took all the overhead away from workers and gave them a simple task: Turn a screw. Paint a panel. Carry a bucket. Then get paid via paycheck. Effectively he helped people monetize their time. God forbid they wished to be seen as employees or be part of a union.

CAPITALISM IS DYING
Click to expand...

I have no issue with Uber "exploiting" people as everyone seems to think. Nobody is forcing drivers to drive. As far as I know there's not a lockin anywhere. Drive or do not. But what Uber has done is taken care of finding customers, advertising, payments, and then they pay the driver to "just drive". Is that any harder than turning a screw?
 
SonicTron said:
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic

Henry Ford took all the overhead away from workers and gave them a simple task: Turn a screw. Paint a panel. Carry a bucket. Then get paid via paycheck. Effectively he helped people monetize their time. God forbid they wished to be seen as employees or be part of a union.

CAPITALISM IS DYING
Click to expand...

and I'm not being sarcastic.
 
gigatexal said:
But what Uber has done is taken care of finding customers, advertising, payments, and then they pay the driver to "just drive". Is that any harder than turning a screw?
Click to expand...
So basically, they're an employer.
 
Nope. I see them as a service to monetize your car in that they help you become your own taxi company. A one person shop that drives if he or she wants.
 
gigatexal said:
I have no issue with Uber "exploiting" people as everyone seems to think. Nobody is forcing drivers to drive. As far as I know there's not a lockin anywhere. Drive or do not. But what Uber has done is taken care of finding customers, advertising, payments, and then they pay the driver to "just drive". Is that any harder than turning a screw?
Click to expand...

It's been my experience that any company advertising their 'jobs' more than their services, is a scam. I've heard/seen lots of "Drive with Uber" ads, but not nearly as many "Ride with Uber" ads...
 
I think in this case they need more drivers to keep up with demand hence the "Drive with Uber" ads.
 
darkstarcow said:
Thats the thing, you as a contractor get to negotiate/bid on work, uber drivers do not.
Click to expand...

OK, I think I'm starting to get it now.

And now considering that Uber strictly forbids tipping of the driver in any way does seem more like an employee / employer relationship.

I'm curious though, how are DirecTV installers different? From my third-hand knowledge (I do not know nor know anyone who personally knows an installer) satellite installers (and some cable installers) are contractors and not employees. On the surface it would seem the two are similar, as DirecTV tells the installers where to go and what to do, and contractors receive a set rate for each job.
 
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