Deleting Your Browser History Could Land You In Court

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It is sad to see something that was intended to combat corporate accounting scandals slowly morph into something that is used like this.

The Sarbanes-Oxley Act is to blame. Initially it was created to combat corporate accounting scandals, like those of Enron and Worldcom in the late 1990s. Fast forward to today. The law has become the basis for prosecuting individuals who delete their browser history if that browser history is considered evidence in a federal trial.
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To me what matters is the order of events.

If the court asks for XYZ, and then AFTER they ask for it you delete it... hell yeah, they should throw the book at you. But if they ask for XYZ, but you already deleted it months ago, then its a non-issue.
 
Ducman69 said:
To me what matters is the order of events.

If the court asks for XYZ, and then AFTER they ask for it you delete it... hell yeah, they should throw the book at you. But if they ask for XYZ, but you already deleted it months ago, then its a non-issue.
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Exactly.
 
It is not enough to merely obey.

You must LOVE Big Brother.
 
Bunch of people sitting around a table thinking of ways to get people to click on a web page link.
 
TFederal investigators felt they were "entitled" to the data.
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Fuck that! The feds are getting lazier and lazier when it comes to investigations. It's almost like if they don't have your cellphone data & data from FBI planes tracking your every move & a complete history of everything you did online for the last seven years they wouldn't have a clue what to do with themselves. A monkey could get a conviction with all that shit!
 
But isn't the default browser history only like 3-4 weeks, so they have to be pretty fast .
I don't think Fed's and fast should be in same sentence .
 
Ducman69 said:
To me what matters is the order of events.

If the court asks for XYZ, and then AFTER they ask for it you delete it... hell yeah, they should throw the book at you. But if they ask for XYZ, but you already deleted it months ago, then its a non-issue.
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You would think so. But we are talking about the Gubmint here.
 
What if someone uses the "Delete cache upon exit" option in IE. Do they then take IE to court? User was simply using an advertised feature.
 
There's a way to tell FireFox to send all its caching only to RAM. If you do that, you don't really retain a browser history anywho. I wonder what happens in that case?
 
Surefire fix, install automated clearing software now. Then there won't be anything to request.
 
Steve said:
Exactly.
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There are also digital forensics experts that are probably smarter than the users deleting their data that may still be able to get the information back from a lot of seized HDDs because most people are not running file-shredding software on their PCs...
 
I mean "if" I was going to do some illegal browser stuff ... Chrome has a setting for that ... pr0n mode!
 
Ducman69 said:
To me what matters is the order of events.

If the court asks for XYZ, and then AFTER they ask for it you delete it... hell yeah, they should throw the book at you. But if they ask for XYZ, but you already deleted it months ago, then its a non-issue.
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Agree. If you know it's evidence, and you destroy it, then it's a problem. If you just happened to delete it first out of habit, and they ask for it later, tough...
 
Ducman69 said:
To me what matters is the order of events.

If the court asks for XYZ, and then AFTER they ask for it you delete it... hell yeah, they should throw the book at you. But if they ask for XYZ, but you already deleted it months ago, then its a non-issue.
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+Common sense
 
Even on the business side Sarbanes Oxley has become an unwieldy millstone for business that punishes the innocent and really doesn't do much to the guilty (and should be repealed) ... individuals should be out of the scope of SOX (but if they are not we can blame Congress for a poorly written law as much as prosecutors who are grabbing some low hanging fruit) ... prosecutors will always go for easy penalties (if they are available), which is why Al Capone went to jail for tax evasion and not any of his numerous criminal acts

The best solution to this is to implement an expiration for all laws passed by Congress (as people have suggested in other threads) ... it would be more cumbersome but forcing Congress to reevaluate laws to keep them current (and aligned to the latest political climate) or have them expire would be the best solution ... give each law no more than a decade before the required renewal :cool:
 
TechLarry said:
What if someone uses the "Delete cache upon exit" option in IE. Do they then take IE to court? User was simply using an advertised feature.
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As I recall Kevin Mitnick had that option set on his laptop when he was stopped and searched at one point and the investigators threw a shit fit over it.
 
EODetroit said:
Bunch of people sitting around a table thinking of ways to get people to click on a web page link.
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QFT

Yea this isn't news at all especially not for [H]. If it is evidence and you delete it, there are issues.


In 2010, David Kernell, a University of Tennessee student at that time, was convicted under the act for deleting information on his computer that federal investigators said linked him to hacking then-vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's Yahoo account.

The Nation reports, "At the time Kernell took steps to clean his computer, he does not appear to have known that there was any investigation into his conduct."

That doesn't sound very convincing to me. Sounds like he knew damn well what he was doing. sort of
 
This sound a lot like the government feels it is different because "It is on a computer." For decades, suspects have been wiping off fingerprints, sweeping up dusty footprints and using cleaner to remove evidence without facing obstruction of justice charges. Not sure how wiping off fingerprints is different then wiping out a browser cache.
 
So what happens to those us who set it to wipe everything every time the browser closes? On my personal and work PC I have it set to wipe everything (history cache ect..). Originally it was to hide porn when I was young but now I do it simply cause I don't like people seeing my history for anything lol. Kind of annoying re logging into everything like hardforum cause it doesn't save passwords but makes me feel slightly more secure :p
 
Phoenix333 said:
5th Amendment should cover this.
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LOL. It should, of course. But, there have been a lot of things lately that should have been covered under the Constitution. They can make the laws to change that, though. They make the rules, we must obey....
 
SOX in a business sense is important. Yes, it's red tape, but it enforces a relatively uniform standard of information which must be retained. This alone forces companies to keep on their toes and prevents them from using the "we weren't aware" or "our systems don't work that way" defenses. If there is a defined standard of what must be retained, systems must be designed to accommodate them, which reduces investigative burden for both the company and investigators.

That being said SOX has no business being applied to civilians subject to federal investigation. You can do whatever the hell you want with your information up until you bet subpoena'd or served.
 
Dead Parrot said:
This sound a lot like the government feels it is different because "It is on a computer." For decades, suspects have been wiping off fingerprints, sweeping up dusty footprints and using cleaner to remove evidence without facing obstruction of justice charges. Not sure how wiping off fingerprints is different then wiping out a browser cache.
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people do get charged with offenses for getting rid of incriminating evidence but you don't hear about it often. If you google around you will find some news stories about doctors arrested for permanently altering patients' fingerprints, too :D
 
What if I reinstall Windows? Am I required to backup my history.

Or if I get a virus that deletes stuff on my hard drive. Am I supposed to keep a record of my history?

Crazy stuff lol.
 
Cant wait for precrime to be invented then you can get arrested cause you would of deleted your cache in the future.
 
Darunion said:
QFT

Yea this isn't news at all especially not for [H]. If it is evidence and you delete it, there are issues.


In 2010, David Kernell, a University of Tennessee student at that time, was convicted under the act for deleting information on his computer that federal investigators said linked him to hacking then-vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's Yahoo account.

The Nation reports, "At the time Kernell took steps to clean his computer, he does not appear to have known that there was any investigation into his conduct."

That doesn't sound very convincing to me. Sounds like he knew damn well what he was doing. sort of
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And everyone in court tells the truth about every question asked of them...

Denial is a wonderful defense tactic.
 
I think the specific language in the law concerning this issue is this:

Section 802(a) of the SOX, 18 U.S.C. § 1519 states:

“ Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. ”
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I guess what surprises me most about this language is that I would imagine that this would have already been illegal. I would think there's other laws covering this type of thing but there was a shit ton of document destruction and fabrication going on in the Enrons and Worldcoms fiascos that bought about Sarbanes-Oxley.
 
kbrickley said:
The best solution to this is to implement an expiration for all laws passed by Congress (as people have suggested in other threads) ... it would be more cumbersome but forcing Congress to reevaluate laws to keep them current (and aligned to the latest political climate) or have them expire would be the best solution ... give each law no more than a decade before the required renewal :cool:
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So, every law would be renewed the way the national budget gets renewed? Holy shit. Wouldn't it be less painful to just nuke the entire government?
 
sfsuphysics said:
And everyone in court tells the truth about every question asked of them...

Denial is a wonderful defense tactic.
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Oh I agree, my point was not that, my point was how the journalist was kinda putting a spin on the statement in a way that makes it sound like he is the victim here by some crazy law that arrests people for deleting their history folders.
 
chanchan said:
I mean "if" I was going to do some illegal browser stuff ... Chrome has a setting for that ... pr0n mode!
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Why would you use spyware to browse websites privately? Despite what Google says, there is absolutely no way Chrome can be trusted.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think the specific language in the law concerning this issue is this:



I guess what surprises me most about this language is that I would imagine that this would have already been illegal. I would think there's other laws covering this type of thing but there was a shit ton of document destruction and fabrication going on in the Enrons and Worldcoms fiascos that bought about Sarbanes-Oxley.
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Previous law forbade people from corrupting others from destroying documents and from individuals destroying documents in *current* criminal proceedings. This was expanded to cover individuals from destroying stuff themselves and when such documents pertained to any matters (no criminal proceeding under way necessary) within US jurisdiction.

So it enhanced who was covered and extended beyond (rather, before) criminal proceedings.
 
forget deleting my browser cache...if I had some illegal stuff on my system I would just reformat the entire hard drive...
 
Ducman69 said:
To me what matters is the order of events.

If the court asks for XYZ, and then AFTER they ask for it you delete it... hell yeah, they should throw the book at you. But if they ask for XYZ, but you already deleted it months ago, then its a non-issue.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately in the land of SOX it's compliance first. You're expected to know and follow the rules before the court asks you to. That's part of SOX compliance.
 
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