HardOCP News
[H] News
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22Cans, the developer that successfully raised almost $830k on Kickstarter and then failed to deliver on many promises made during the campaign, says it's a good thing crowdfunding has waned. 
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Crowdfunding Has Waned, And That's A Good Thing
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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lollerwaffle
Gawd
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- Feb 3, 2008
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- 665
Yeah, make sure you kick that ladder..
Crowdfunding has its issues and maturity in the process is great, but what a crock of shit for this particular recipient to say.
Crowdfunding has its issues and maturity in the process is great, but what a crock of shit for this particular recipient to say.
temujin987
[H]ard|Gawd
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- Jun 24, 2008
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a lot of people seem to have thought kickstarter was some kind of preordering system. kickstarter is a great concept, but people shouldn't be so gullible. "yea, the game is in pre-alpha, we have little more than an idea and a few pieces of concept art, but it'll be awesome!".
I know I'm going to get a ton of flak for this, but the problem with the ENTIRE crowdfunding model is that there's absolutely zero accountability built into the system. None. Nada. If someone makes their funding goal and runs off to Cancun for a nice vacation, there's no recourse for backers. Or, the project creator could cite a zillion different reasons why things went south and still not be liable for any mismanagement on his or her part.
And, incredibly, many people seem to be fine with this. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me my pledge is just a "donation" or "investment", I wouldn't need Kickstarter to get my dream project off the ground (a deluxe artbook). It's maddening and sidesteps or outright ignores the basic tenet of commerce - I pay you X in exchange for Y. Except the Y is completely missing from the equation, only leaving X. In what sort of warped reality is that even remotely acceptable?
Accountability has become a four-letter word to these people. And it's the reason why areas like Comics and Publishing are becoming graveyards of unfunded projects on Kickstarter, even with absurdly low funding goals.
Buzzwords like "rewards" are also toxic. You get a reward for helping an old lady cross a busy street or running a marathon. It's NOT something received in exchange for money. I certainly don't consider the bag of chips I purchased at my local a convenience store a "reward". Why should something so egregiously mislabeled be applied to crowdfunding?
"Preorder" is like purified garlic to these people. "Your pledge doesn't constitute a preorder." Ugh! In what campaigns have these people been involved? The 90+ projects I've backed have had very specific deliverables outlined. And, fortunately, only a few have turned sour. The rest have taken their ethical AND legal obligations seriously and have shipped their respective goods, for which they should be lauded.
But it only takes a few worm infested apples to spoil an entire tree.
Let the flaming commence!
And, incredibly, many people seem to be fine with this. If I had a nickel for every time someone told me my pledge is just a "donation" or "investment", I wouldn't need Kickstarter to get my dream project off the ground (a deluxe artbook). It's maddening and sidesteps or outright ignores the basic tenet of commerce - I pay you X in exchange for Y. Except the Y is completely missing from the equation, only leaving X. In what sort of warped reality is that even remotely acceptable?
Accountability has become a four-letter word to these people. And it's the reason why areas like Comics and Publishing are becoming graveyards of unfunded projects on Kickstarter, even with absurdly low funding goals.
Buzzwords like "rewards" are also toxic. You get a reward for helping an old lady cross a busy street or running a marathon. It's NOT something received in exchange for money. I certainly don't consider the bag of chips I purchased at my local a convenience store a "reward". Why should something so egregiously mislabeled be applied to crowdfunding?
"Preorder" is like purified garlic to these people. "Your pledge doesn't constitute a preorder." Ugh! In what campaigns have these people been involved? The 90+ projects I've backed have had very specific deliverables outlined. And, fortunately, only a few have turned sour. The rest have taken their ethical AND legal obligations seriously and have shipped their respective goods, for which they should be lauded.
But it only takes a few worm infested apples to spoil an entire tree.
Let the flaming commence!
Red Squirrel
[H]F Junkie
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- 9,211
How does this work, arn't the people suppose to pay back if their idea never happens or fails?
What would stop me from crowd funding some epic idea and never following through, then?
What would stop me from crowd funding some epic idea and never following through, then?
They're suppose to, but, from what I've seen, that almost never happens. Even Kickstarter's own ToS dis-incentives project creators from issuing refunds. It's ridiculous.
Not a damn thing (unfortunately).
Armenius
Extremely [H]
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- 41,959
Crowdfunding is not an investment, so there is no obligation, legal or otherwise, for them to pay people their money back.
Twisted Kidney
2[H]4U
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- 4,094
Molyneux is either a two bit huckster or a blithering idiot, anybody who would donate anything to a project he is involved in is a fool. It's scum bags like him that will hopefully make anybody backing projects more cynical. How this guy manages to scam people over and over is simply beyond reasoning.
I think (I hope) people are paying more attention to what these crowd funded projects are and who happens to be behind them, though. A lot of people who have burned all of their bridges in their given industries are looking to crowd funding to continue the work they were never fit to do.
I think (I hope) people are paying more attention to what these crowd funded projects are and who happens to be behind them, though. A lot of people who have burned all of their bridges in their given industries are looking to crowd funding to continue the work they were never fit to do.
Tweak42
Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
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- 609
Meh, same old buyer beware. What's old is new again.
"SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!" - every kickstarter fan ever
Artificiary
Gawd
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I think, like many things, it's just a vocal minority who say things like 'kickstarting is an investment' or 'it's like preordering a game'. I believe that the majority of people who contribute to kickstarter understand that it's a risk you willfully accept to pursue.
Here's how I think most people (myself included) who participate in crowd funding view the practice:
It's just another form of gambling. You put your money down on the bet (project) you like the most and hope you get a payout (a game, a device, a book, etc.) Some bets are safer than others (largely dependent on the project creator) and in general you go with your gut or your emotions (a new BG style game? Sign me up!) If you lose your bet, you don't really expect any recourse because you chose to gamble in the first place.
There are fools in every activity, they also usually tend to be the loudest.
Here's how I think most people (myself included) who participate in crowd funding view the practice:
It's just another form of gambling. You put your money down on the bet (project) you like the most and hope you get a payout (a game, a device, a book, etc.) Some bets are safer than others (largely dependent on the project creator) and in general you go with your gut or your emotions (a new BG style game? Sign me up!) If you lose your bet, you don't really expect any recourse because you chose to gamble in the first place.
There are fools in every activity, they also usually tend to be the loudest.
kbrickley
Supreme [H]ardness
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- May 13, 2012
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The best usage of crowdfunding is not to fund an individual's indie project but to fund developer's projects that they want to do outside the traditional funding models (VC or Publisher ... which both come with lots of conditions) ... individuals (especially new folks with some shiny idea) usually have neither the experience nor the accountability (as others have noted) to see their projects through ... all of the software projects I have supported have been through formal developers (Obsidian, InXile) or through developer teams that broke off to go solo from bigger developers (but they had previous projects under their belts) ... for individuals I would prefer they take their IP to a developer or publisher until they get sufficient experience to manage their own projects
The thing is, though, Kickstarter (and, by extension, crowdfunding in general) was never suppose to be about gambling. Sure, there is some obvious risk, but in a casino there is no expectation of anything from putting down a bet (other than a losing or winning hand). Kickstarter is just the opposite. Project creators are actively selling their wares while accepting money to get those wares produced. In essence, you pledge at tier X, you get the goods listed in tier X.
It's intended to be a very open, straightforward, and viable avenue for those unable to obtain traditional funding. What's it's turning into - and what some people seem to advocating - is a Vegas smoke-filled dive where the house (in this case, project creators and Kickstarter itself) always wins and backers remit money only at their peril. Instead of a win-win scenario, it's becoming a win-lose proposition. Buzzwords and phrases like "rewards", "investing", "donating", "not a store", "not a preorder", and such are quickly killing any appeal and impetus crowdfunding once had.
There used to be integrity and accountability in the system, whether implied or enforced. Kickstarter used to be a lot more selective in their campaign requirements. Now, it's almost an anything goes circus. In no other part of commercial life would this be tolerated, but crowdfunding has sold and positioned itself into this bizarre and quite corrupt market niche where notions such as consequences and repercussions just don't apply.
However, disinterest and the mad rush to collect posting and processing fees are taking their toll. Absent any credibility in the system, it's the proverbial snake eating its own tail. In the areas I visit on Kickstarter, it's turned into a dustbowl of unfunded drives, many of which look entirely worthy of succeeding. People who could be backers are slowly realizing that the deck really is stacked against them. Kickstarter won't help in cases of undelivered goods. Local law enforcement doesn't seem to have the time or inclination to assist jilted backers. And more powerful state and federal authorities seem equally unimpressed (except for a precious few).
It was a wonderful concept that, like many other wonderful concepts, is turning into vinegar instead of the fine wine it was meant to be. My own personal investment in Kickstarter is definitely drawing to a close. I'll probably continue to support "known entities" that have a proven track record, but said entities were never what crowdfunding was about. It was never designed to be just another funding arm for already rich celebrities or established companies and corporations, but for those with great ideas who only needed some money to make those dreams possible.
Such a waste.
It's intended to be a very open, straightforward, and viable avenue for those unable to obtain traditional funding. What's it's turning into - and what some people seem to advocating - is a Vegas smoke-filled dive where the house (in this case, project creators and Kickstarter itself) always wins and backers remit money only at their peril. Instead of a win-win scenario, it's becoming a win-lose proposition. Buzzwords and phrases like "rewards", "investing", "donating", "not a store", "not a preorder", and such are quickly killing any appeal and impetus crowdfunding once had.
There used to be integrity and accountability in the system, whether implied or enforced. Kickstarter used to be a lot more selective in their campaign requirements. Now, it's almost an anything goes circus. In no other part of commercial life would this be tolerated, but crowdfunding has sold and positioned itself into this bizarre and quite corrupt market niche where notions such as consequences and repercussions just don't apply.
However, disinterest and the mad rush to collect posting and processing fees are taking their toll. Absent any credibility in the system, it's the proverbial snake eating its own tail. In the areas I visit on Kickstarter, it's turned into a dustbowl of unfunded drives, many of which look entirely worthy of succeeding. People who could be backers are slowly realizing that the deck really is stacked against them. Kickstarter won't help in cases of undelivered goods. Local law enforcement doesn't seem to have the time or inclination to assist jilted backers. And more powerful state and federal authorities seem equally unimpressed (except for a precious few).
It was a wonderful concept that, like many other wonderful concepts, is turning into vinegar instead of the fine wine it was meant to be. My own personal investment in Kickstarter is definitely drawing to a close. I'll probably continue to support "known entities" that have a proven track record, but said entities were never what crowdfunding was about. It was never designed to be just another funding arm for already rich celebrities or established companies and corporations, but for those with great ideas who only needed some money to make those dreams possible.
Such a waste.
mope54, project creators who, for whatever reason, are unable to fulfill their campaign promises and obligations ARE suppose to issue refunds. This is in Kickstarter's own ToS. The loophole that Kickstarter recently implemented is that only REMAINING funds are required to be refunded.
This, of course, leaves the door wide open for project creators to burn through campaign funds in just about any way they wish, all the while putting on the most innocent faces possible. Spent a couple grand to visit Disney World? Hey, I had to recharge my batteries! Plunked down some serious cash on a gaming rig? I needed the horsepower for Photoshop! Installed your own in-home, fully-stocked bar? That's how I keep the creative juices flowing! Moved to Timbuktu? Why, I never used pledge funds for that...honest!
If you can think of an "out" as to why no more money is in the bank, you're set with Kickstarter. They've already collected their cut off the top, so why should they care?
This, of course, leaves the door wide open for project creators to burn through campaign funds in just about any way they wish, all the while putting on the most innocent faces possible. Spent a couple grand to visit Disney World? Hey, I had to recharge my batteries! Plunked down some serious cash on a gaming rig? I needed the horsepower for Photoshop! Installed your own in-home, fully-stocked bar? That's how I keep the creative juices flowing! Moved to Timbuktu? Why, I never used pledge funds for that...honest!
If you can think of an "out" as to why no more money is in the bank, you're set with Kickstarter. They've already collected their cut off the top, so why should they care?
StoleMyOwnCar
2[H]4U
- Joined
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- Messages
- 2,996
Heh. If I was a Sci-Fi writer, I would stop writing books. What's the point? I could be working as hard as possible to make the most profitable contemporary sci-fi story possible: a crowdfunding campaign. If I'm creative enough, maybe I'll get enough suckers to invest.
Or at least that's what it feels like to me. Perhaps it's already turned into an entrepreneur business like that at this point. Think about it, all you have to do is make an amazing, possibly achievable idea and then market it. Wham, free money.
I'm sure that there are people that are trying to use this system to actually accomplish something that they legitimately want done, which is the sad part...
Or at least that's what it feels like to me. Perhaps it's already turned into an entrepreneur business like that at this point. Think about it, all you have to do is make an amazing, possibly achievable idea and then market it. Wham, free money.
I'm sure that there are people that are trying to use this system to actually accomplish something that they legitimately want done, which is the sad part...
I think the problem with Kickstarter is a complete misrepresentation of that project's obligation to the 'crowd'. Not whether there should be one or not, but what exactly the expectations will be. Seems they are all sort of bait and switchy. "You're an investor.... err no.... you're more like a pre-order...err no, you're less than a pre-order and slightly better than lint."
Of course, the other huge problem with crowdfunding is the vertical, encapsulated nature of creating, storing, and shipping deliverables. Any and all logistical issues have to be resolved by the campaign creators without the assistance of partnered companies that have already overcome these hurdles.
However, many people have no earthly idea what they're getting themselves into. Even seemingly obvious expenses are often not properly evaluated, like shipping supplies and warehousing. You then wind-up with project creators either bailing on the campaign altogether or running into serious red to fulfill backer "rewards" (I still hate that term).
As an aside, there's a site I recently found that documents fraudulent Kickstarter campaigns:
http://kickscammed.com/
Curiously, and perhaps unfairly, Elite Dangerous is on there via an entry created by a VERY unhappy buyer with a litany of complaints (taken from the comments on a Forbes article on ED).
However, many people have no earthly idea what they're getting themselves into. Even seemingly obvious expenses are often not properly evaluated, like shipping supplies and warehousing. You then wind-up with project creators either bailing on the campaign altogether or running into serious red to fulfill backer "rewards" (I still hate that term).
As an aside, there's a site I recently found that documents fraudulent Kickstarter campaigns:
http://kickscammed.com/
Curiously, and perhaps unfairly, Elite Dangerous is on there via an entry created by a VERY unhappy buyer with a litany of complaints (taken from the comments on a Forbes article on ED).