Men On The Internet Don’t Believe Sexism Is A Problem In Science

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I don't see a problem with women in science as long as she can still make me a sandwich in the lab. :D

As a follow-up to recent studies on sexism and harassment in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math), researchers studied the Internet's reaction to the evidence those studies provided — and it turned out the way you'd expect, if you've ever been on the Internet. Male commenters flipped out.
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Fucked up research:

To see how different genders reacted to evidence of bias in science (on the Internet, anyway), the researchers looked at the comment threads of three articles about studies on the issue, and quantified the responses.
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NEVER judge an article by it's comments. Look at YouTube comments or other articles. You see the absolute worst people commenting. Even here, I comment a bit too harshly on some news articles.

Guess what - the Internet personas are usually far from reality. So, OP is a fag, girls belong in the kitchen, racist something something, etc... People are badasses on the Internet.

But one thing proved truly equal: 50 percent of the sexist comments against men were made by men themselves. So I guess we've got a little gender parity going, if only when it comes to misandry.
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I really love these people, though. Hating on their own to sound like they are the social justice warrior. Pfft.
 
Quoted from this spot on (but very lengthy) piece sort of related to the subject...

link above said:
By late high school, the gap between men and women in math and programming is already as large as it will ever be. Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women.

Nothing that happens between twelfth grade and death decreases the percent of women interested in computer science one whit.

I have no hard numbers on anything before high school, but from anecdotal evidence I know very very many young men who were programming BASIC on their dad’s old computer in elementary school, and only a tiny handful of young women who were doing the same.

I don’t want to get into a drawn out inborn-ability versus acculutration fight here. I want to say that I want to say that whether we attribute this to inborn ability or to acculturation, the entire gender gap has been determined in high school if not before. If anything, women actually gain a few percentage points as they enter Silicon Valley.
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Oh... it is. (based on the title. And it's sexism in favor of women.
 
With all of these people doing studies and writing these articles about gender bias in different social and workplace areas, you would think at least some of them would try to do something about it. But no, all you ever see is people bringing attention to it, as if that's going to somehow magically fix the problem.
 
Parja said:
With all of these people doing studies and writing these articles about gender bias in different social and workplace areas, you would think at least some of them would try to do something about it. But no, all you ever see is people bringing attention to it, as if that's going to somehow magically fix the problem.
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What do you think can/should be done about it?
 
Anyone who's every lost any position (whether in a school or a job) where the deciding factor was based upon "affirmative action" knows that it sucks. So it's not surprising when that men might flip out with studies about women in (anywhere) because when it comes down to it that's competition, and if there are more of another group of people let into an "area" with a limited number of spaces that means less of another group in that "area".

So you see these stories where "more women needed in science" well there's not an infinite amount of spaces in a school, or job environment so what that tends to scream at people not in that group is "they're going to make sure they have a certain quota of women".

Now before the kneejerks of "so what" "misogynistic" and all those other lovely terms come about, the same exactly thing would happen if you had a class full of women, and there's an announcement that we need more freshman in the program... that means others are losing their spot, and those women (or men) would turn on that as well.

I'm biased about women in the science, I teach in a "science department' at a college, 50% of those in my department are women, when I was in grad school the numbers were similar. So it's hard for me to see discrimination when there isn't any in front of me.
 
Parja said:
With all of these people doing studies and writing these articles about gender bias in different social and workplace areas, you would think at least some of them would try to do something about it. But no, all you ever see is people bringing attention to it, as if that's going to somehow magically fix the problem.
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because it's not their problem. It's men oppressing them and it's up to them to stop it.

And frankly, in one point the article made, if I was a professor, you damm right I wouldn't be keen on mentoring women. Not because I'm trying to hold them back but because all it takes is one accusation from them to ruin your career.
 
Parja said:
With all of these people doing studies and writing these articles about gender bias in different social and workplace areas, you would think at least some of them would try to do something about it. But no, all you ever see is people bringing attention to it, as if that's going to somehow magically fix the problem.
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Thank takes too much work and usually costs too much as well.
 
Ryokurin said:
because it's not their problem. It's men oppressing them and it's up to them to stop it.
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Of course. It's the companies hiring STEM grads fault that not enough women get into STEM fields early on in their education, so there are not enough qualified female graduates for them to hire... :rolleyes:
 
Parja said:
With all of these people doing studies and writing these articles about gender bias in different social and workplace areas, you would think at least some of them would try to do something about it. But no, all you ever see is people bringing attention to it, as if that's going to somehow magically fix the problem.
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I think one issue is that there are many who still dispute the bias (or that a solution is even needed), hence the studies ... it is hard to fix a problem when large swaths of the public are still debating whether there is a problem to fix (cough cough diversity cough cough ... cough cough climate change cough cough ... cough cough gender equality cough cough ... etc) :cool:

There are few short term solutions to gender or racial diversity gaps in tech (since there is also a shortage of qualified candidates) ... there are many long term solutions (some of which have started) like scholarships targeted at the diversity or gender candidates needed and mentoring of promising candidates at an early age (maybe using science fairs or other means to identify them) ;)
 
Zarathustra[H];1041359468 said:
Of course. It's the companies hiring STEM grads fault that not enough women get into STEM fields early on in their education, so there are not enough qualified female graduates for them to hire... :rolleyes:
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applejack_notsureifserious_display.png
 
Zarathustra[H];1041359468 said:
Of course. It's the companies hiring STEM grads fault that not enough women get into STEM fields early on in their education, so there are not enough qualified female graduates for them to hire... :rolleyes:
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It would seem to me that the only way to solve this problem (if there indeed is a problem, and it's not just caused by people choosing the fields that interest them the most) would be to convince young girls to get into STEM fields.

I will once again refer to the excellent blog post I mentioned above, but this is too long to quote, so just scroll to section VIII. (or read the whole thing, it is really quite good)
 
sfsuphysics said:
I'm biased about women in the science, I teach in a "science department' at a college, 50% of those in my department are women, when I was in grad school the numbers were similar. So it's hard for me to see discrimination when there isn't any in front of me.
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Because there really isn't. It's similar to the myth of the glass ceiling. Sure it was around 20-30 years ago but recent studies show that up into their 30s men and women climb the ladder at a similar rate, hell others show that women actually have a upper hand since more are college educated. But the point is, it's not a ceiling it's because by that point a lot of women are starting to focus on starting a family. It's kind of hard to get a promotion when you are on maternity leave or have a small child to take care of.
 
Arct1c0n said:
applejack_notsureifserious_display.png
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Very serious, and have datas :p

Again, as I already quoted above:

linked blog post said:
By late high school, the gap between men and women in math and programming is already as large as it will ever be. Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women.

Nothing that happens between twelfth grade and death decreases the percent of women interested in computer science one whit.

I have no hard numbers on anything before high school, but from anecdotal evidence I know very very many young men who were programming BASIC on their dad’s old computer in elementary school, and only a tiny handful of young women who were doing the same.

I don’t want to get into a drawn out inborn-ability versus acculutration fight here. I want to say that I want to say that whether we attribute this to inborn ability or to acculturation, the entire gender gap has been determined in high school if not before. If anything, women actually gain a few percentage points as they enter Silicon Valley.
Click to expand...
 
Ryokurin said:
because it's not their problem. It's men oppressing them and it's up to them to stop it.
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Not sure if serious. What are men doing to oppress women to keep them out of science? Wearing silly shirts which anger feminists (all the while those same feminists are saying they should be able to wear what they want and not be 'degraded' for it)?

Ultimately this is a problem in which nobody can be directly blamed. Men could encourage women more, but ultimately it's up to women to decide to go into these fields.

If a woman decides not to go into a field because it's dominated by men, it's her own fault. Men can't change this FOR women. Women ultimately must control their own destiny. In fact, it is sexist against WOMEN to say that men are responsible for this problem. Women have a choice, and to say that MEN need to fix this problem is also saying that the women don't have the choice and that they need men to do this for them.

I'm in IT and I do programming and system administration and such. I've worked with mostly men but also some women. The women have been no less capable than the men and did not seem to regard their job/career differently than the men. The only obstacle to women are the idiots who write articles about science not being a field for women, even if the articles are trying to 'fix' that very problem.

Sexism is not okay even if you happen to think that it is of benefit. Period.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041359493 said:
Very serious, and have datas :p

Again, as I already quoted above:
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Of course, I just now noticed that my mistake was conflagrating STEM overall with Tech/Computer. My data and comments apply to the Tech industry, not to the raw sciences.
 
STEM isn't just computer science. Some of the representation numbers are expected, as in the rates of degrees awarded.

Back to the topic... the insecurity of lay comment trolls is pretty funny, especially since most aren't even qualified for the positions they're hyper-critical of women actually working in.
 
Sigh.....more wasted e-ink. I work in the world of finance, and our company hires solely on talent. I've seen guys come here who appeared to be bright.....but when the SHTF, they are the ones running for the door b/c they can't handle the workload. My boss is a woman, and is the best person I have ever worked for in my entire life. On the other hand, there are plenty of women who have spun through here like they're in a revolving door as well, so there's no real pattern as to who can and can't do the job.

Bottom line, at my company at least, you can either hang or you can't. We don't care what sex/race/religion/nationality you are. We simply let the daunting workflow separate the wheat from the chaff, and then work the wheat even harder. :)
 
Blah blah blah.... (social justice)... blah blah blah, (throw more money around)... blah blah blah.

Who cares? If you want to go into a field, then do it. If you don't, then don't do it. (non) Problem solved.

I'm pretty tired of all this hand-wringing.
 
dandragonrage said:
Not sure if serious. What are men doing to oppress women to keep them out of science? Wearing silly shirts which anger feminists (all the while those same feminists are saying they should be able to wear what they want and not be 'degraded' for it)?

Ultimately this is a problem in which nobody can be directly blamed. Men could encourage women more, but ultimately it's up to women to decide to go into these fields.

If a woman decides not to go into a field because it's dominated by men, it's her own fault. Men can't change this FOR women. Women ultimately must control their own destiny. In fact, it is sexist against WOMEN to say that men are responsible for this problem. Women have a choice, and to say that MEN need to fix this problem is also saying that the women don't have the choice and that they need men to do this for them.

I'm in IT and I do programming and system administration and such. I've worked with mostly men but also some women. The women have been no less capable than the men and did not seem to regard their job/career differently than the men. The only obstacle to women are the idiots who write articles about science not being a field for women, even if the articles are trying to 'fix' that very problem.

Sexism is not okay even if you happen to think that it is of benefit. Period.
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It was sarcasm, but not that far from what a lot of tumblr feminist think nowadays. They want to hide behind the idea that they are a woman so they have no agency to do anything but have everything cater to what they want. I've lost female friends over this. Often time the only thing holding you back is what people are telling you. It's just easier to blame someone else for your problems.
 
Ryokurin said:
But the point is, it's not a ceiling it's because by that point a lot of women are starting to focus on starting a family. It's kind of hard to get a promotion when you are on maternity leave or have a small child to take care of.
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Well, see, that comes down to basic personal responsiblity and choices with pro's and con's like everything else in life :rolleyes:
 
dandragonrage said:
What do you think can/should be done about it?
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Well, it may sound insensitive, but it's not *MY* problem, so *I* don't really care. Just seems like if you're confronted with something you see as a problem, complaining about it seems to be about the least effective way to actually resolve that problem.

I am a hiring manager in a STEM field, and I try to give everyone a fair shake regardless of ethnicity, gender, age, etc. I'd like to think I'm not part of the problem, at least.

But for all of the positions I've ever been hiring for, I think I've gotten a sum total of one resume from a (presumably) female applicant. But (like many of the male applicants I also passed over) her professional interests and experience level was not in line with what I was looking for in the position.
 
Parja said:
But for all of the positions I've ever been hiring for, I think I've gotten a sum total of one resume from a (presumably) female applicant. But (like many of the male applicants I also passed over) her professional interests and experience level was not in line with what I was looking for in the position.
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You could just make a blunt advertisment saying something like "Sup sexy, smart and hot biatches! Come work for us, we treat our ladies right" :D
 
Arct1c0n said:
Well, see, that comes down to basic personal responsiblity and choices with pro's and con's like everything else in life :rolleyes:
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No you are completely reading into what I said. A lot of women who want a family don't choose engineering fields or leave them because they know it's often a 24/7 job. Something has to give. Not everything comes down to people being harassed or assaulted, it's often is because something more important comes along. You can't have it all, no one can.
 
Ryokurin said:
You can't have it all, no one can.
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Uhh....that was the point of my post to begin with :rolleyes: Hence why I just ignore woman who feel they are "entitled" to be able to have an incredible career options and still pop out kids and be a mom at same time. Unless your Yahoo's CEO, it just aint gonna happen.
 
I believe this is actually part of a bigger problem based on my experience.

There is less of this divide with candidates in certain other countries. I'm involved in the hiring process for our teams in other countries as well as from the US and we consistently see female technical candidates in some Middle Eastern, Asian Island, and South American countries. We almost never see candidates for developer or systems administration positions in the US.

I ran across something a while ago that explained this well since it seemed foreign to me.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/17/356944145/episode-576-when-women-stopped-coding

It looks like what happened is sometime in the 80's computers, computing, and tech in the US was marketed towards boys and young men. As this became a hobby and almost an identity for people majoring in the fields, college programs developed high expectations for people even in intro classes. I experienced this as well. While getting my degree, I started college with a high level of experience and subsequently had no problem with the early courses. However, it washed a lot of people out early which I don't think is ideal.

Technical professional positions in the US often go beyond just being a job and sell themselves as being part of a geek/nerd/techie lifestyle. I'm personally against this and I've tried to build and foster diverse professional teams where possible - I've found in my experience the nerd culture creep into work is really disruptive to international teams and turns departments into cliquey messes. You'll see this in startups a lot; this is almost verbatim from a position my friend was looking at: "We're a fast paced team that uses scrum methodologies. We love doctor who, craft beers, chemex coffee, the maker scene, and we're all brown coats. We take reddit breaks at 2pm!"

What we've done specifically in the US is at least in younger technical departments and organizations we've created a monoculture of persons that have a vulgar kind of sameness to them - one which leans male. This negatively impacts creativity that comes from diversity and limits from the pool of potential candidates. It's contributing to structural unemployment in tech fields by making it both difficult on hiring companies and candidates as tech creates an insular bubble around itself. Sure, in older shops you get your more experienced/older professionals and your handful of foreign workers, but you probably have enough "tech guy" clones alongside them too now. It's something to watch out for going forward.
 
I like how they keep skipping over the fact that not only are men abused/sexually abused on the net, they're actually abused more than women are.

But whatever WP, FIGHT DA GOOD FIGHT!
 
Low and behold, the person who wrote it Rachel Feltman is an avid feminist and anti-#GamerGate person. Typical
 
Oh boy, this thread again. Paging all neckbeards and basement dwellers. Your opinion is required. No, don't bother to fix your stuck caps lock key. Hurry up! There's no time to turn on spell check! You're being oppressed!
 
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