Apple Faces Billions In Fines In Tax Avoidance Probe

H

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
Good thing Apple is sitting on a huge pile of cash because it looks like the company is going to need it. :eek:

Apple faces fines of billions of euros as investigators prepare to accuse the company of receiving illegal state aid in Ireland for more than 20 years. The European Commission began looking into Apple's tax affairs in Ireland, where the US company sites its international headquarters, in June. This week, according to the UK's Financial Times, the EC's preliminary findings will be presented with formal accusations against Apple.
Click to expand...
 
m heisty said:
Backlash for making the job of the FBI "harder".
Click to expand...

No, this is what happens when socialist see someone else with a huge pile of money.
By hording their money overseas to avoid US taxes, Apple painted a huge target on their back.
 
nutzo said:
No, this is what happens when socialist see someone else with a huge pile of money.
By hording their money overseas to avoid US taxes, Apple painted a huge target on their back.
Click to expand...

Yes, however this is an European investigation. The timing of this is still too coincidental for this to be released now. It is a threat tactic.
 
Silly me... I thought this might be governments finally seeing that huge companies are doing everything in their power to avoid anything that costs money.

You know things like paying workers or taxes.
 
If the Europeans succeed in killing the double Irish dutch sandwich scheme, the whole world will be a better place, multinational corporations can no longer skip out on the bills for the services they use.
 
So does this mean Apple will now right off these fine as a "business expense" against their bottom line to lower taxes in the US?
 
plupien79 said:
That's assuming they don't buy a law that will give them a tax refund for paying fines.
Click to expand...

Well since companies can carry over losses to subsequent years wouldn't surprise me if they don't need to write any laws and will get a tax refund for overpayment.
 
nutzo said:
No, this is what happens when socialist see someone else with a huge pile of money.
By hording their money overseas to avoid US taxes, Apple painted a huge target on their back.
Click to expand...
So paying taxes is socialist now? Man, language changes all the time!
 
tetris42 said:
So paying taxes is socialist now? Man, language changes all the time!
Click to expand...

Yep. Paying your own way for the services you use, and the costs you incurr to society is called "responsible" if those costs provide something the right wingers like (like defense and corporate welfare) and "socialism" whenever it's something they don't like.
 
So THAT'S why Tim Cook was lobbying Congress awhile back about how Apple should get a tax break so that they can bring in their money from overseas. He knew the European Commission would be coming after that money. Oh WELL...
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129034 said:
Yep. Paying your own way for the services you use, and the costs you incurr to society is called "responsible" if those costs provide something the right wingers like (like defense and corporate welfare) and "socialism" whenever it's something they don't like.
Click to expand...

Defense is a constitutional mandate. Right winger or left winger, it can't be avoided. Corporate welfare is a crock and I'd like to see all subsidies. ALL SUBSIDIES dismantled and done away with. So, even thought I'm a right winger to you, you clearly don't' know what right wingers know or thing. Also, paying the least amount of taxes possible is as old as the concept of taxation is and in America it's practically a patriotic duty to mitigate as much taxation as you can. As a company it's a fiduciary responsibility.
 
amddragonpc said:
So THAT'S why Tim Cook was lobbying Congress awhile back about how Apple should get a tax break so that they can bring in their money from overseas. He knew the European Commission would be coming after that money. Oh WELL...
Click to expand...

It's called repatriation of domestic overseas money. If the US lowered the tax rate at which money can come back into the country a lot of companies would do that, but since the US is a tax hell, not a tax haven, then you will see shit like this.
 
Methadras said:
Defense is a constitutional mandate. Right winger or left winger, it can't be avoided. Corporate welfare is a crock and I'd like to see all subsidies. ALL SUBSIDIES dismantled and done away with.
Click to expand...
The problem is that defense and corporate welfare often go hand in hand. This isn't about paying soldiers to fight battles, or their health care when they get out of the service (they don't really do the later terribly well). This is about politicians giving handouts (contracts) to certain companies time and again whether or not we need said "defense".
 
nutzo said:
No, this is what happens when socialist see someone else with a huge pile of money.
By hording their money overseas to avoid US taxes, Apple painted a huge target on their back.
Click to expand...

This, 100x this. Nobody should be applauding this, apple fan or apple hater.
 
And for the record, it should be American justice taking a bite out of Apple's ill-gotten pie, not the Europeans who benefitted from it.

Evade American taxes through creative accounting and tax inversion schemes? You're stealing from the American people.
 
These percentages you hear that multinational companies pay are always 100% of the time doctored. It doesn't sound as good on the slanted news shows to say Apple pays just about an average tax bill on a percentage of profits generated in the USA as most companies do. No we have to compare their US tax bill to their global earnings to make the numbers something that people will find outrageous. Remember believe nothing you hear on the news. Now that the rules regarding government propaganda with in the US have been over turned. Question everything even more than you did before.
 
sfsuphysics said:
The problem is that defense and corporate welfare often go hand in hand. This isn't about paying soldiers to fight battles, or their health care when they get out of the service (they don't really do the later terribly well). This is about politicians giving handouts (contracts) to certain companies time and again whether or not we need said "defense".
Click to expand...

Well, who's fault is that? Eisenhower warned us of this problem that he saw himself and called it the industrial military complex. He knew it was a problem and now look at it. Again, who's fault is it? However, that still doesn't deny the fact that national defense is a constitutional mandate. Given that, who is going to carry out that defense and how will it be strategically planned and executed? The government is simply incapable of doing it on it's own, much less well, and because of the fact that government by-in-large does nothing well, then we see things like this happen, where you have a cabal of private/public entities consorting with each other in a well known graft scheme.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129034 said:
Yep. Paying your own way for the services you use, and the costs you incurr to society is called "responsible" if those costs provide something the right wingers like (like defense and corporate welfare) and "socialism" whenever it's something they don't like.
Click to expand...

some things for you to consider:

1) corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them from the consumers, shareholders, and employees

2) taxes are non voluntary and so are most of the government "services" (since there is no alternative), so "paying your own way for the services you use" is little more than bumper sticker level rhetoric.

3) what we have in the states is worse than socialism, it's fascism.
 
m heisty said:
These percentages you hear that multinational companies pay are always 100% of the time doctored. It doesn't sound as good on the slanted news shows to say Apple pays just about an average tax bill on a percentage of profits generated in the USA as most companies do. No we have to compare their US tax bill to their global earnings to make the numbers something that people will find outrageous. Remember believe nothing you hear on the news. Now that the rules regarding government propaganda with in the US have been over turned. Question everything even more than you did before.
Click to expand...

Except multinationals use deceptive bookkeeping to shift as much as possible of their "taxable income" to low cost "PO Box" tax havens....

So, you are right, the numbers are not quite as outrageous as they may seem, but they are also - typically - nowhere near their fair share.
 
wabbitseason said:
....

Evade American taxes through creative accounting and tax inversion schemes? You're stealing from the American people.
Click to expand...

lol @ the double speak.

Using the legal system to shelter your lawfully acquired property is theft... brilliant twist of language.
 
wabbitseason said:
And for the record, it should be American justice taking a bite out of Apple's ill-gotten pie, not the Europeans who benefitted from it.

Evade American taxes through creative accounting and tax inversion schemes? You're stealing from the American people.
Click to expand...

They aren't stealing anything from anyone. They are using legal national and international taxation laws to fulfill their fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. People like you amaze me. Take no time to do even the most basic research, then start demanding peoples heads on sticks because you don't feel what they are doing is right.

On a side note, the Europeans have just as much if not more right than the Americans do to sue Apple for this money. Technically Apple is a Irish company.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129034 said:
Yep. Paying your own way for the services you use, and the costs you incurr to society is called "responsible" if those costs provide something the right wingers like (like defense and corporate welfare) and "socialism" whenever it's something they don't like.
Click to expand...

Funny how corporate welfare has exploded under the current administration, yet it get blamed on the right.
 
wabbitseason said:
And for the record, it should be American justice taking a bite out of Apple's ill-gotten pie, not the Europeans who benefitted from it.

Evade American taxes through creative accounting and tax inversion schemes? You're stealing from the American people.
Click to expand...

?

What do you do then about companies that actually do make a considerable amount of money overseas but then can't bring that money in to the US without taking a significant tax hit?

As for the headquarters overseas bit, if a company is headquartered in the US, all of its subsidiaries can be subject to US tax law, even if they did absolutely no business in the US at all.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129687 said:
Except multinationals use deceptive bookkeeping to shift as much as possible of their "taxable income" to low cost "PO Box" tax havens....

So, you are right, the numbers are not quite as outrageous as they may seem, but they are also - typically - nowhere near their fair share.
Click to expand...

They are the "fair share" according to the tax laws. Also companies pay a large chunk of the taxes for their employees. I am talking that taxes the government levies on the company based on the income of the employee. Not just taxes paid by the company for the employee.
 
spintroniX said:
some things for you to consider:

1) corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them from the consumers, shareholders, and employees

2) taxes are non voluntary and so are most of the government "services" (since there is no alternative), so "paying your own way for the services you use" is little more than bumper sticker level rhetoric.

3) what we have in the states is worse than socialism, it's fascism.
Click to expand...

Only issue with 1 is that corporations do indeed pay taxes. They also act as a pass through for others.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129687 said:
Except multinationals use deceptive bookkeeping to shift as much as possible of their "taxable income" to low cost "PO Box" tax havens....

So, you are right, the numbers are not quite as outrageous as they may seem, but they are also - typically - nowhere near their fair share.
Click to expand...

So you've conceded that you are incorrect on one point, but then go on to straw man the 'fair share' fallacy as a means to appear that something really nefarious is still occurring. Gosh, where have I seen that before...?
 
spintroniX said:
some things for you to consider:

1) corporations don't pay taxes, they collect them from the consumers, shareholders, and employees
Click to expand...

Explain, because I'm fairly sure from my accounting classes that there is corporate income tax...

And don't use the old "companies just pass on taxes" argument, because honestly it isn't true. Prices of goods are not set in a "cost plus" manner. They are set by what the market will bear, and taxes don't change that.


spintroniX said:
some things for you to consider:
2) taxes are non voluntary and so are most of the government "services" (since there is no alternative), so "paying your own way for the services you use" is little more than bumper sticker level rhetoric.
Click to expand...

Nope. There are essential services that government provide that can not be provided on an individual basis.

Any business that exists in our nation takes advantage of the vast majority of them, and thus it is only fair to expect them to pay for them.

If they don't like them, then the stakeholders (shareholders, employees, etc.) can vote to change the laws governing which services are provided and which costs are incurred.


spintroniX said:
3) what we have in the states is worse than socialism, it's fascism.
Click to expand...

If you honestly believe that, then please, by all means move to beautiful, free Somalia.

What we have in the U.S. is representative of what exists in most of the developed world. Having a certain element of shared responsibilities and costs is what makes a society. It has existed since caveman times.

Without it, we have anarchy.
 
wabbitseason said:
And for the record, it should be American justice taking a bite out of Apple's ill-gotten pie, not the Europeans who benefitted from it.

Evade American taxes through creative accounting and tax inversion schemes? You're stealing from the American people.
Click to expand...

Technically the government is stealing from you since they did fairly nothing to claim they are entitled to that generated wealth other than their mere existence. If you are going to use the 'infrastructure usage and funding' argument think again since it is the collective taxation of the American people and companies that get funneled to government in order for them to pay back out that money to get that infrastructure built. We own it, not them. Government is nothing more than a non-value added middleman. And the worst kind, since they can enforce their theft at the point of a gun.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129722 said:
Explain, because I'm fairly sure from my accounting classes that there is corporate income tax...

And don't use the old "companies just pass on taxes" argument, because honestly it isn't true. Prices of goods are not set in a "cost plus" manner. They are set by what the market will bear, and taxes don't change that.




Nope. There are essential services that government provide that can not be provided on an individual basis.

Any business that exists in our nation takes advantage of the vast majority of them, and thus it is only fair to expect them to pay for them.

If they don't like them, then the stakeholders (shareholders, employees, etc.) can vote to change the laws governing which services are provided and which costs are incurred.




If you honestly believe that, then please, by all means move to beautiful, free Somalia.

What we have in the U.S. is representative of what exists in most of the developed world. Having a certain element of shared responsibilities and costs is what makes a society. It has existed since caveman times.

Without it, we have anarchy.
Click to expand...

Corporations do not pay taxes. The corporate entity is "taxed" however the profits made by a company are just made as an agent of the shareholders. So the shareholders are the ones who are actually bearing the tax on the corporation. The corporate tax is inherently bullshit because it is 100% a double taxation.
 
Methadras said:
Technically the government is stealing from you since they did fairly nothing to claim they are entitled to that generated wealth other than their mere existence. If you are going to use the 'infrastructure usage and funding' argument think again since it is the collective taxation of the American people and companies that get funneled to government in order for them to pay back out that money to get that infrastructure built. We own it, not them. Government is nothing more than a non-value added middleman. And the worst kind, since they can enforce their theft at the point of a gun.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the government built roads, provides clean drinking water, public education, fire and police departments, libraries, tries to enforce pollution laws, protects national parks, among other things. I consider these all very important things, that should be enforced by force if necessary. Some of these have little to no profit incentive, but improve the quality of life for many people. I don't understand how the absence of government would benefit things that are good for society, but have no profit incentive.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041129722 said:
Explain, because I'm fairly sure from my accounting classes that there is corporate income tax...

And don't use the old "companies just pass on taxes" argument, because honestly it isn't true. Prices of goods are not set in a "cost plus" manner. They are set by what the market will bear, and taxes don't change that.
Click to expand...

Unless he was specifically referring to an S Corp, I agree with you on that one. There is clearly a corporate income tax.


Zarathustra[H];1041129722 said:
Nope. There are essential services that government provide that can not be provided on an individual basis.

Any business that exists in our nation takes advantage of the vast majority of them, and thus it is only fair to expect them to pay for them.

If they don't like them, then the stakeholders (shareholders, employees, etc.) can vote to change the laws governing which services are provided and which costs are incurred.
Click to expand...

While some of that is true (there are laws specifically forbidding keeping a private standing army in most states, and I believe under Federal law), there are alos a ton of things that the government provides very poorly or does a teribble job of keeping track of. The GAO issued a report that indicates that the Federal government in 2010 alone wasted $125 billion on improperly administered or duplicate programs. http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-773T

Also, "stakeholders" can't vote. Only US Citizens can, and even then only properly registered citizens having reached the age of majority.

Zarathustra[H];1041129722 said:
If you honestly believe that, then please, by all means move to beautiful, free Somalia.

What we have in the U.S. is representative of what exists in most of the developed world. Having a certain element of shared responsibilities and costs is what makes a society. It has existed since caveman times.

Without it, we have anarchy.
Click to expand...

Why with the Somalia bit? Have you ever been to Somalia? Do you know anything about Somalia except as a punchline? Please stop throwing that nonsense around.

When someone says that they believe the current system of government/corporate collusion (constant drumbeat on both sides of "the best government money can buy") or straight up government intimidation of business (threatening daily fines of $250,000 for withholding personal data) is wrong, they aren't saying that we should dissolve the government. They are saying such practices should stop, and such speech is explicitly covered under the first amendment.
 
tetris42 said:
I'm pretty sure the government built roads, provides clean drinking water, public education, fire and police departments, libraries, tries to enforce pollution laws, protects national parks, among other things. I consider these all very important things, that should be enforced by force if necessary. Some of these have little to no profit incentive, but improve the quality of life for many people. I don't understand how the absence of government would benefit things that are good for society, but have no profit incentive.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, but governments also build prisons, imprison larges swathes of people, initiate and prosecute armed conflict, wiretap public communications infrastructures, selectively enforce laws, intimidate people, etc, etc, etc.

Also, please be specific which governments to which you are referring. I assume the US Federal Government, but it's not the only one. It's not even the only one in the US - we have Federal, State, County, and Municipal government. These aren't hierarchical either; they are cumulative. Just because someone may be against the Federal government funneling money into one thing or another doesn't mean they would also be against a particular State government undertaking the same activity. The Federal government is supposed to operate under specific enumerated powers, with the balance of powers reserved to the States and the People.
 
flashoverride said:
Ah yes, but governments also build prisons, imprison larges swathes of people, initiate and prosecute armed conflict, wiretap public communications infrastructures, selectively enforce laws, intimidate people, etc, etc, etc.

Also, please be specific which governments to which you are referring. I assume the US Federal Government, but it's not the only one. It's not even the only one in the US - we have Federal, State, County, and Municipal government. These aren't hierarchical either; they are cumulative. Just because someone may be against the Federal government funneling money into one thing or another doesn't mean they would also be against a particular State government undertaking the same activity. The Federal government is supposed to operate under specific enumerated powers, with the balance of powers reserved to the States and the People.
Click to expand...


Using the term "Government" as a boogeyman is disingenuous, at best.

The same people who run the government are the same people who ran corporations or will run corporations. After all, money speaks. Why else would there be such a push towards privatization? How can one actually justify turning a needed service or utility into something that exists only as a profit motive? (Read: Private prisons and the war on drugs.)

We have ceased being a democracy decades ago.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top