Former NVIDIA Developer Disputes Forbes' Watch Dogs Article

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It looks like the article we linked earlier today has touched off a firestorm. John McDonald, a former NVIDIA employee, had this to say:

It is extremely frustrating to see an article criticizing work you did at a former employer and not being able to comment that the person who you are quoting from was just completely full of unsubstantiated bullsh*t. Thanks, Forbes. And while I never did, and certainly do not now, speak for nvidia, let me say that in the six years I was in devtech I *never*, not a single time, asked a developer to deny title access to AMD or to remove things that were beneficial to AMD.
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If you want to see how NVIDIA stacks up against AMD, check out our Watch Dogs AMD & NVIDIA GPU performance preview.
 
Well, what that developer did or didn't do with respect to AMD has nothing at all to do with what nVidia is doing *now*, of course, that this person isn't privy to. I wonder if he also happened not to be working at nVidia when nVidia was doing its infamous 3dMark "on a rail" cheating, nv30 campaigning, etc...;) (Denying the 3dMk thing officially a dozen times or more before finally admitting it.) It very well could be that during the time this guy worked for nVidia that he never saw much of anything.

That said, AMD's comments don't seem to make a lot of sense. AMD's developing its own API, has its own developer program, and seems to outperform nVidia in this game, anyway. I'm not sure I understand the basis for these comments from AMD. All's fair in competition (except cheating, dishonesty, etc.), it seems to me. What's there for AMD to complain about?
 
So, the fact that he personally didn't do any of this automatically means nvidia isn't doing it either. I find that hard to believe. This guy is full of it.
 
It's not just AMD users, but don't forget about Intel as well. Intel's Iris Pro graphics is very good, and would be a shame to not be able to make good use of that GPU as well. Nvidia is just one big giant GPU click. You're either in or out.
 
Forbes article summary: Gameworks bad, because AMD says so. Just ignore AMD's proprietary Mantle and it all makes sense. :p
 
This isn't the first time that one company's tools have been optimized for at the expense of another, and it won't be the last. Folks act like this is something new. This has been going on since the advent of computer graphics.
 
pxc said:
Forbes article summary: Gameworks bad, because AMD says so. Just ignore AMD's proprietary Mantle and it all makes sense. :p
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Little different situation. If you can't use Mantle, you can still use DX for say - BF4. Nvidia colluding with a developer to actively inhibit AMD performance via DX on Watchdogs is entirely wrong.

Mantle is what - 10% improvement in BF4? While Nvidia is advertising the AMD flagship 290x performing worse than a GTX 770 because in Watchdogs simply because they paid the developer to try and fuck over AMD.
 
SilverSliver said:
While Nvidia is advertising the AMD flagship 290x performing worse than a GTX 770 because in Watchdogs simply because they paid the developer to try and fuck over AMD.
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Where did Nvidia advertise this? I haven't seen that. What I did hear/read was a lot of fud about how AMD was going to suck at this game. The preview for Watch Dogs that [H] posted this morning seems to show AMD doing just fine.
 
I love how his says this and there were a few publications mentioning things like.

"AMD attempted to provide Warner Bros. Montreal with code to improve Arkham Origins performance in tessellation, as well as to fix certain multi-GPU problems with the game. The studio turned down both" TWIMTBP title with Gameworks...what a coincidence!
 
Just remember, GameWorks is Nvidia's answer to Mantle, as in both provide (closed) platform dependent optimizations for games that use either one.

phobos512 said:
This isn't the first time that one company's tools have been optimized for at the expense of another, and it won't be the last. Folks act like this is something new. This has been going on since the advent of computer graphics.
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This, seriously. The disingenuous "outrage" over Nvidia getting some advantage by working with developers, while ignoring when AMD does the exact same thing, is plain silly.
 
pxc said:
Just remember, GameWorks is Nvidia's answer to Mantle, as in both provide (closed) platform dependent optimizations for games that use either one.

This, seriously. The disingenuous "outrage" over Nvidia getting some advantage by working with developers, while ignoring when AMD does the exact same thing, is plain silly.
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If Gameworks was just another optimization path ala Mantle or OpenGL then this would be a non-issue, but the problem is it affects the DirectX optimization path and turns it into a black box.

If you want to switch video cards to optimally play different games this this should be a concern to you regardless of model or brand in your build. Keep things standard and optimizable, it's good for the future of PC gaming, 'nuff said.
 
Wierdo said:
If Gameworks was just another optimization path ala Mantle or OpenGL then this would be a non-issue, but the problem is it affects the DirectX optimization path and turns it into a black box.

If you want to switch video cards to optimally play different games this this should be a concern to you regardless of model or brand in your build. Keep things standard and optimizable, it's good for the future of PC gaming, 'nuff said.
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then this*

Is someone gonna add edit feature to BBS yet, it's 2014 you know lol.
 
pxc said:
Just remember, GameWorks is Nvidia's answer to Mantle, as in both provide (closed) platform dependent optimizations for games that use either one.
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NVIDIA don't have any answer to Mantle, Microsoft have an answer called DX12 and the Khronos Group have an answer called OpenGL 5.

But Mantle existing doesn't stop NVIDIA from optimising drivers.

This, seriously. The disingenuous "outrage" over Nvidia getting some advantage by working with developers, while ignoring when AMD does the exact same thing, is plain silly.[/QUOTE]

AMD has never done this. Name one time when AMD has paid developers to deny code access to NVIDIA?

I don't see why you are defending NVIDIA, you don't benefit from this either. Unless you are an NVIDIA shareholder, in which case I would like you to say so.

NVIDIA users don't get any extra performance increases from the code being denied to AMD.

Working with developers to get them to make the game run faster on your cards is fine.

Paying developers to deliberately make the game run slower on the competitions cards is not.
 
Uh stupid forums and no edit button. The quote should re-open after my second sentence and close where is says [/QUOTE].
 
dgz said:
So, the fact that he personally didn't do any of this automatically means nvidia isn't doing it either. I find that hard to believe. This guy is full of it.
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John McDonald said:
I was the nvidia engineer who worked with Ubisoft Montreal on watchdogs.
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lol
 
Sounds like AMD failed to partner with the developer and are paying the price for that lack of involvement. If nVidia has deeper pockets to dedicate employees to assist these developers then AMD should fix that issue by creating their own well funded team to provide the same service.

There is no evidence that the Gameworks program slows things down on AMD hardware. AMD's lack of direct involvement in the development process handles that just fine on its own.

GO TEAM GREEN! Crush AMD!
 
pxc said:
Forbes article summary: Gameworks bad, because AMD says so. Just ignore AMD's proprietary Mantle and it all makes sense. :p
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Historically, Nvidia has been known to push the industry in their favor. More often then not, it fucks over consumers. For example, the Geforce FX graphic cards were a huge failure. They performed terribly in DX9 graphics. So what did Nvidia do? They pushed developers to go for DX8.1 graphics. Wasn't until games like Half Life 2 that really used DX9 that screwed over Nvidia.

Then there was DX9.0c that Nvidia introduced. Through their effort, it pushed out regular DX9. So any graphics card that wasn't DX9c, can't play modern DX9 games. DX9c is just cleaner and uses less code. Anyone who played Bioshock would remember that the community had to make a patch to play that game on older DX9 cards.

Then there was DX10 vs DX10.1. AMD was late to produce a DX10 graphics card, but when they did they used 10.1. If anyone remembers that DX10 caused huge performance loss in games, which made it intrinsically worthless. Ubisoft offered a 10.1 patch that gave Assassin’s Creed a huge performance boost, but it was removed.

It's pretty clear that Nvidia has huge influence over developers when it comes to development. And it doesn't help AMD or Nvidia customers either. Seriously Gsync PhysX are just some examples of how Nvidia likes to push out competition. But developers who don't care about PC game sales are more likely to go to Nvidia for help and deal with their restrictions. They do offer help, and you can't say no to free help. So that's going to say about about a game like WatchDogs. Otherwise the game would have been a more straight up crappy console port. Nvidia don't sell graphic cards if developers aren't pumping some effort into their PC ports. Makes sense on their end.
 
Daroller said:
GO TEAM GREEN! Crush AMD!
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Yeah! Go monopoly pricing and less innovation, woohoo! Because I don't get any money from Company X, nor does Company X give one flying shit about me, but I gain personal satisfaction from their screwing over Company Y to my ultimate detriment! Go tribalism go! :rolleyes:
 
TwistedAegis said:
Yeah! Go monopoly pricing and less innovation, woohoo! Because I don't get any money from Company X, nor does Company X give one flying shit about me, but I gain personal satisfaction from their screwing over Company Y to my ultimate detriment! Go tribalism go! :rolleyes:
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Yeah, I mean, why would people buy products that are better with more features, better software ecosystem, and higher performance anyway? BOOOOOOO! Buy amd instead, screw capitalism! /sarcasm
 
GoldenTiger said:
Yeah, I mean, why would people buy products that are better with more features, better software ecosystem, and higher performance anyway? BOOOOOOO! Buy amd instead, screw capitalism! /sarcasm
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That's entirely different for cheering on one company to "crush" the other company, particularly when they are the only 2 participants in a market. I've purchased both AMD and NVidia GPUs in the past, but rooting for one to take the other out is ridiculous.

And finally, judging by a lot of the most recent [H] reviews, I don't know that your summary of Nvidia being better across the board is accurate anyway.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Yeah, I mean, why would people buy products that are better with more features, better software ecosystem, and higher performance anyway? BOOOOOOO! Buy amd instead, screw capitalism! /sarcasm
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Performance is subjective. Software ecosystem is just scary. You make it seem like exclusive features for Nvidia is a good idea. What better features?

Nvidia is trying to pull an Apple, in that they want loyal customers. I buy what's the best bang for the buck. Just so happens AMD falls in that ball part in both CPU and GPU. If Nvidia gets off their high horse and prices their products more competitively then Nvidia it shall be. Even though I have Nvidia graphics as well, but it's in my laptop.

Nvidia of all companies shouldn't be pushing customers around. I'm so impressed with Intel's Iris Pro graphics that I may just get that and forget graphic cards. Right now both AMD and Nvidia are lucky cause Iris Pro graphics are restricted to a few mobile devices, but if Intel makes it standard in their CPUs then these guys are FFFFFFFFFFuuuuuuuu! Both AMD and Nvidia would have to replace their entire sub $100 graphics card market. Mid range products would have to become the new low end. As it is Nvidia has almost no presence in the laptop market with AMD's and Intel's APU graphics.

I am not brand local, and I will hop over to whoever has the better product. That's why I don't like PhyX, or CUDA, or their influence over developers in code optimization.
 
TwistedAegis said:
That's entirely different for cheering on one company to "crush" the other company, particularly when they are the only 2 participants in a market. I've purchased both AMD and NVidia GPUs in the past, but rooting for one to take the other out is ridiculous.
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Oh, I totally agree, rooting for one to be gone is idiotic at best.

Ashbringer said:
Performance is subjective. Software ecosystem is just scary. You make it seem like exclusive features for Nvidia is a good idea. What better features?

Nvidia is trying to pull an Apple, in that they want loyal customers. I buy what's the best bang for the buck. Just so happens AMD falls in that ball part in both CPU and GPU. If Nvidia gets off their high horse and prices their products more competitively then Nvidia it shall be. Even though I have Nvidia graphics as well, but it's in my laptop.

Nvidia of all companies shouldn't be pushing customers around. I'm so impressed with Intel's Iris Pro graphics that I may just get that and forget graphic cards. Right now both AMD and Nvidia are lucky cause Iris Pro graphics are restricted to a few mobile devices, but if Intel makes it standard in their CPUs then these guys are FFFFFFFFFFuuuuuuuu! Both AMD and Nvidia would have to replace their entire sub $100 graphics card market. Mid range products would have to become the new low end. As it is Nvidia has almost no presence in the laptop market with AMD's and Intel's APU graphics.

I am not brand local, and I will hop over to whoever has the better product. That's why I don't like PhyX, or CUDA, or their influence over developers in code optimization.
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I'm not brand loyal either but the truth is nvidia has provided better products 99% of the time at this point for many years. And by "software ecosystem" I mean the awesomeness that is hardware encoding for video capture with Shadowplay, physx, txaa, and other goodies that only can be had on nvidia. The latter pair isn't in EVERY game but the ones it is in it makes a huge impact in, and overall the coverage of one or the other is pretty large for major releases. Shadowplay of course works with everything.
 
GoldenTiger said:
And by "software ecosystem" I mean the awesomeness that is hardware encoding for video capture with Shadowplay, physx, txaa, and other goodies that only can be had on nvidia. The latter pair isn't in EVERY game but the ones it is in it makes a huge impact in, and overall the coverage of one or the other is pretty large for major releases. Shadowplay of course works with everything.
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"hardware encoding for video capture with Shadowplay"

Avalible for AMD and Intel with 3rd party software.

"physx"

A shitty physics engine is is out-performed by alternatives on all hardware.

"txaa"

Un-needed, better AA methods exist.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Yeah, I mean, why would people buy products that are better with more features, better software ecosystem, and higher performance anyway? BOOOOOOO! Buy amd instead, screw capitalism! /sarcasm
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Features, ecosystem? What the fuck are you talking about? You need some rest.
 
Wierdo said:
If Gameworks was just another optimization path ala Mantle or OpenGL then this would be a non-issue, but the problem is it affects the DirectX optimization path and turns it into a black box.
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lol, seriously.

AMD could do the work* required to make an acceptable optimization path for its cards in effects which come from GameWorks; nvidia can do absolutely nothing with proprietary Mantle which has hooks in the GCN architecture.

* but instead AMD chooses to continually cry about it... note that nvidia doesn't cry all over the world about Mantle. pwnd
 
dgz said:
So, the fact that he personally didn't do any of this automatically means nvidia isn't doing it either. I find that hard to believe. This guy is full of it.
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that ofcourse assumes that its not a bullshit clickbait article by a "contributor" to begin with.
Hint: it is

Apparently forbes has no actual tech writers actually employed there and will post just about any nonsense emailed to them by random submission. Because there's a pattern of absurd sensationalized articles that constantly seem to have Forbes.com attached

TLDR; Don't be so naive
 
So the guy at Forbes would rather that GPU makers just supply their API, don't work with developers at all, because it would be "unfair"? What a dipshit! I want them working with developers as often as possible, and not just large ones, the little guys too. And I believe the former Nvidia guy who says there's no anti-optimization for AMD, that's just typical red-banner-waving FUD/bullshit.
 
GyKTHMk.jpg


Says it all right there.
 
Nvidia has a long and glorious tradition of lying and cheating, so while I'm sure things aren't as black and white as laid out in that article, I have no trouble believing the gist of it is true.
 
MrCrispy said:
Nvidia has a long and glorious tradition of lying and cheating, so while I'm sure things aren't as black and white as laid out in that article, I have no trouble believing the gist of it is true.
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If it's closed/proprietary then there's a reason for consumers to worry. Simple as that.
 
I dunno... if I'm a game developer and nvidia comes to me with a bunch of money to make sure the game runs well on their cards, I know I'm going to spend more time optimizing that path. Not to mention that I wouldn't want to even deal with amd's drivers since everyone in the industry knows they're a complete trainwreck.

All that aside... when did John McDonald leave nvidia? Where did he go? Valve?
 
pxc said:
lol, seriously.

AMD could do the work* required to make an acceptable optimization path for its cards in effects which come from GameWorks; nvidia can do absolutely nothing with proprietary Mantle which has hooks in the GCN architecture.

* but instead AMD chooses to continually cry about it... note that nvidia doesn't cry all over the world about Mantle. pwnd
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No in fact AMD cannot write their own optimisation paths as the DX paths are locked away behind a blackbox.

EODetroit said:
So the guy at Forbes would rather that GPU makers just supply their API, don't work with developers at all, because it would be "unfair"? What a dipshit! I want them working with developers as often as possible, and not just large ones, the little guys too. And I believe the former Nvidia guy who says there's no anti-optimization for AMD, that's just typical red-banner-waving FUD/bullshit.
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Working with devs to optimise code is fine. Paying devs to not allow others to optimise code is not.

NVIDIA users don't get any speed boost by the code being locked away and AMD and Intel users suffer a speed drop due to not being able to optimise.
 
jwcalla said:
I dunno... if I'm a game developer and nvidia comes to me with a bunch of money to make sure the game runs well on their cards, I know I'm going to spend more time optimizing that path. Not to mention that I wouldn't want to even deal with amd's drivers since everyone in the industry knows they're a complete trainwreck.

All that aside... when did John McDonald leave nvidia? Where did he go? Valve?
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That's not the issue.

The issue is that NVIDIA is paying devs to deny AMD code access.

If NVIDIA came to you and said "Hey we want you to deny AMD access to your code so they cannot write drivers to run your game well"

Would you say yes?
 
Spazturtle said:
That's not the issue.

The issue is that NVIDIA is paying devs to deny AMD code access.

If NVIDIA came to you and said "Hey we want you to deny AMD access to your code so they cannot write drivers to run your game well"

Would you say yes?
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The issue is games don't run well on AMD cards so they blame everyone else. If you want games to run well buy a NVIDIA card. They work hard with developers to make games run well using existing APIs. There's a reason they have 2/3 of the video card market. Go with what works.
 
PRIME1 said:
The issue is games don't run well on AMD cards so they blame everyone else. If you want games to run well buy a NVIDIA card. They work hard with developers to make games run well using existing APIs. There's a reason they have 2/3 of the video card market. Go with what works.
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Funny games seam to be running just as well or better on AMD hardware.

Your the exact sort of person we have to blame for these anti-consumer companies existing. What do you get out of this? You can thank yourself for the slowdown in GPU developments. Why would NVIDIA bother to make decent GPUs when they can pay devs to try and artificially limit the competition.
 
Spazturtle said:
That's not the issue.

The issue is that NVIDIA is paying devs to deny AMD code access.

If NVIDIA came to you and said "Hey we want you to deny AMD access to your code so they cannot write drivers to run your game well"

Would you say yes?
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PRIME1 said:
The issue is games don't run well on AMD cards so they blame everyone else. If you want games to run well buy a NVIDIA card. They work hard with developers to make games run well using existing APIs. There's a reason they have 2/3 of the video card market. Go with what works.
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You just proved spazturtles point. You blame amd for poor drives, but their drivers are bad because nvidia. So it looks like gameworks really works! Win for nvidia!
 
PRIME1 said:
The issue is games don't run well on AMD cards so they blame everyone else. If you want games to run well buy a NVIDIA card. They work hard with developers to make games run well using existing APIs. There's a reason they have 2/3 of the video card market. Go with what works.
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So what do you have to say to the allegations of AMD providing optimization examples and advice to developers (working hard!) only to be ignored because the devs working with Nvidia?
 
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