ZeniMax Sues Oculus

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Did anyone else hear that? I could swear I just heard the bad guy from the first Mortal Kombat movie saying "It has begun!" Pass the popcorn. :eek:

Night Race Blue Metallic Oculus fired back in a statement provided to CNET, saying, "The lawsuit filed by ZeniMax has no merit whatsoever. As we have previously said, ZeniMax did not contribute to any Oculus technology. Oculus will defend these claims vigorously."
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Normally when there are these huge billion dollar buyouts, part of the agreement is for the company buying the other business to offer up it's legal council in case of these types of flair ups.

I'm sure this will get crushed like the cockroach lawsuit it is
 
SixFootDuo said:
Normally when there are these huge billion dollar buyouts, part of the agreement is for the company buying the other business to offer up it's legal council in case of these types of flair ups.

I'm sure this will get crushed like the cockroach lawsuit it is
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To be honest, I wouldn't blame Valve if they sued Oculus like this. They shared VR technology with them and then they went and gave it to Facebook.
 
Based on the information available, I can't figure out what Zenimax thinks they are doing other than screwing themselves.

It looks like (and very likely is) a pure cash grab through shady litigation.

Pretty sick behavior from Zenimax. And I'm no fan of Zenimax or Facebook
 
Valve's relationship with Oculus is a totally different animal. It would be MORE understandable if those two had an "issue." Zenimax is just pissing and moaning that if someone employed by them at the time worked on something completely unrelated on their own time they are still entitled to fruits of that work.

Life sucks. Sometimes you underutilise brilliant people. Their loss.
 
And with that, I just cancelled my TESO subscription. I don't support intellectual property trolls. Fuck off Zenimax.
 
Zenimax has a history of imaginary property abuse. They also tried to go after Notch/Mojang.

Facebook has many billions more than Zenimax has. I hope they get counter-sued into bankruptcy.
 
My girlfriend and I spent $160 dollars on two TESO pre-orders, we didn't even bother to renew .. game is horrible
 
While ZeniMax is by no means a small entity, Facebook is much more bigger than they are. I find it hard to believe they would go after Oculus VR without an ace up their sleeve...
 
Zenimax has this strange idea that because Carmack was working for them, anything that comes out of his mind, on the job or not, belongs to them. Carmack was employed by Zenimax working on some sort of VR project, during this time, he also helped Oculus with some of the core coding of the Oculus. Zenimax argues that he used the code he developed while on Zenimax's payroll in the Oculus. I guess if he did a copy/paste job they have a case but, Carmack's one of the most capable coders out there....I'm pretty confident he wouldn't do something so lazy and incompetent as that.
 
USMCGrunt said:
Zenimax has this strange idea that because Carmack was working for them, anything that comes out of his mind, on the job or not, belongs to them.
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I keep reading this, but wouldn't their claims depend on the contract terms upon which Carmack was tied to ZeniMax? Terms that — as far as I know — are undisclosed to the public.

I am not taking anybody's side on this, it's just something that came to mind that I have not seen anybody bring up.
 
EODetroit said:
And with that, I just cancelled my TESO subscription. I don't support intellectual property trolls. Fuck off Zenimax.
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I've got a solution for that, just play Skyrim more. It's better and there is enough downloadable content for at least the next 10 years.
 
_PixelNinja said:
I keep reading this, but wouldn't their claims depend on the contract terms upon which Carmack was tied to ZeniMax? Terms that — as far as I know — are undisclosed to the public.

I am not taking anybody's side on this, it's just something that came to mind that I have not seen anybody bring up.
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While I definitely agree that if he signed a contract stipulating all creative knowledge he develops on the job or not belongs to Zenimax is possible....who in their right mind would do that? It's literally selling your soul and while many of us wouldn't mind renting ours out for a 6-9 figure payout over a year or two, I'm sure Carmack isn't hurting for money in the least bit.
 
Advil said:
Zenimax is just pissing and moaning that if someone employed by them at the time worked on something completely unrelated on their own time they are still entitled to fruits of that work.
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Pretty much. Its like the actor or businessman that divorces his wife before he makes it big, suddenly becomes a multi-millionaire, and next thing you know the wife comes crawling out of the sewer looking to get her hooks in.
 
Quix said:
I've got a solution for that, just play Skyrim more. It's better and there is enough downloadable content for at least the next 10 years.
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QFT. You literally *could* play Skyrim for the next 10 years and not run out of things to do with the amount of mods. Sure you might lose your mind first but you wouldn't run out of new ways to experience it.

Check out this hilarious playthrough for an idea of the extent of them -- this is probably the funniest Skyrim video I've seen.

NSFW: The most offensive Skyrim run (sex, nudity, violence, all the good stuff)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0zH3B8lz7Q
 
There was an episode like this this in Better Off Ted, a sitcom about the employees of a big multinational corporation, Veridian , where one of protagonists writes a childrens book in her off time, and has to hide it from the company because everything any employee comes up with, belongs to Veridian.
 
damicatz said:
Zenimax has a history of imaginary property abuse. They also tried to go after Notch/Mojang.

Facebook has many billions more than Zenimax has. I hope they get counter-sued into bankruptcy.
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They had to challenge that though to keep their trademark or copyright. Blame the system, not the participants.
 
Remon said:
There was an episode like this this in Better Off Ted, a sitcom about the employees of a big multinational corporation, Veridian , where one of protagonists writes a childrens book in her off time, and has to hide it from the company because everything any employee comes up with, belongs to Veridian.
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TV show or not, that's pretty much standard practice as a company employee. I'm guessing that's why Zenimax is pursuing the lawsuit and thinks it has a good chance of being awarded damages. Villifying them seems silly.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
TV show or not, that's pretty much standard practice as a company employee. I'm guessing that's why Zenimax is pursuing the lawsuit and thinks it has a good chance of being awarded damages. Villifying them seems silly.
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I think the vilification of Zenimax over this is because they're going after a company that looks to be the best opportunity at making VR a reality and being sued into oblivion. I know there are many other companies out there but Oculus really does have the better product and their failure would be very bad for VR. I also have zero faith in Sony, I feel like they're just jumping on the bandwagon, not really interested in creating a very real consumer experience.
 
USMCGrunt said:
I think the vilification of Zenimax over this is because they're going after a company that looks to be the best opportunity at making VR a reality and being sued into oblivion. I know there are many other companies out there but Oculus really does have the better product and their failure would be very bad for VR. I also have zero faith in Sony, I feel like they're just jumping on the bandwagon, not really interested in creating a very real consumer experience.
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If Facebook has the best chance at making VR, I feel really bad for VR technology in general.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
TV show or not, that's pretty much standard practice as a company employee. I'm guessing that's why Zenimax is pursuing the lawsuit and thinks it has a good chance of being awarded damages. Villifying them seems silly.
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If there is an issue of code theft or him taking elements of design there might be a case... but as for someone doing what they want on their off time and a company "owning" that idea.... fuck that shit.

If I come up with a new exhaust design for cars I race on the weekend, or dream up a fancy awesome back porch design... why would anyone argue or think that my employer owns those ideas/designs?

What's funny though is zenimax can already see their future... look what happen when carmack left iD. They are now a hollowed out sinking ship because they can't come up with any good ideas without carmack.
 
DPI said:
QFT. You literally *could* play Skyrim for the next 10 years and not run out of things to do with the amount of mods. Sure you might lose your mind first but you wouldn't run out of new ways to experience it.
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The problem would be even if you had 10 years to sit down an play Skyrim, you would nevet get to half of it because you would be skrewing around with the mods rather than playing the game.
 
collegeboy69us said:
If there is an issue of code theft or him taking elements of design there might be a case... but as for someone doing what they want on their off time and a company "owning" that idea.... fuck that shit.

If I come up with a new exhaust design for cars I race on the weekend, or dream up a fancy awesome back porch design... why would anyone argue or think that my employer owns those ideas/designs?

What's funny though is zenimax can already see their future... look what happen when carmack left iD. They are now a hollowed out sinking ship because they can't come up with any good ideas without carmack.
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I agree that it seems unfair and questionable to think a company can claim ownership over something someone invented in their spare time, but that doesn't mean that the a court will reach the same conclusion. We also aren't gonna get to hear what they argue in court so we'll prolly never get like a complete perspective regardless of the what comes out of it.

As far as ID is concerned, I don't think they were really going much of anywhere even with John around. I mean really, how many times can you make a 3D FPS corridor shooter game and have it seem original or fresh? I think he left because he knew there wasn't anything else left to do with the company and didn't wanna be there when it suffered from lack of innovation.

Zenimax sucks too. Even the "good" games they release are buggy, broken, and the butt of lots of jokes. The modding support and big group of talented modders are really what has saved pretty much all of their recent big RPG releases were rescued from yuck that way.
 
USMCGrunt said:
While I definitely agree that if he signed a contract stipulating all creative knowledge he develops on the job or not belongs to Zenimax is possible....who in their right mind would do that? It's literally selling your soul and while many of us wouldn't mind renting ours out for a 6-9 figure payout over a year or two, I'm sure Carmack isn't hurting for money in the least bit.
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You have a point. However, I think it is safe to say the terms would be far more subtle and complicated than "All creative knowledge developed by the employee during the validity of this contract belongs to us".
 
USMCGrunt said:
Zenimax has this strange idea that because Carmack was working for them, anything that comes out of his mind, on the job or not, belongs to them. Carmack was employed by Zenimax working on some sort of VR project, during this time, he also helped Oculus with some of the core coding of the Oculus. Zenimax argues that he used the code he developed while on Zenimax's payroll in the Oculus. I guess if he did a copy/paste job they have a case but, Carmack's one of the most capable coders out there....I'm pretty confident he wouldn't do something so lazy and incompetent as that.
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Dude, Carmack is Oculus . He is the reason it exploded the way it did. His sneaky exit plan worked beautifully. E3, the following kickstarter... it was all him.
 
_PixelNinja said:
I keep reading this, but wouldn't their claims depend on the contract terms upon which Carmack was tied to ZeniMax? Terms that — as far as I know — are undisclosed to the public.

I am not taking anybody's side on this, it's just something that came to mind that I have not seen anybody bring up.
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Personally, I'll boycott them whether Carmack did or did not agree to unreasonable terms. Unacceptable corporate behavior is unacceptable either way, and capitalism's method of punishment (boycotting) is always available.

I don't think enough people will boycott Zenimax, but it doesn't stop me from doing the right thing.

When HP declined to pursue the home computer technology that Steve Wozniak developed, Apple was started. Do you think that HP should own that technology that they declined to pursue?
 
dandragonrage said:
Personally, I'll boycott them whether Carmack did or did not agree to unreasonable terms. Unacceptable corporate behavior is unacceptable either way, and capitalism's method of punishment (boycotting) is always available.

I don't think enough people will boycott Zenimax, but it doesn't stop me from doing the right thing.

When HP declined to pursue the home computer technology that Steve Wozniak developed, Apple was started. Do you think that HP should own that technology that they declined to pursue?
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Do whatever your conscience tells you to do. I am merely bringing up a point for discussion.

As for you question, whether HP Vs. Apple or in this case ZeniMax Vs. Oculus VR what I think is ultimately irrelevant — is up to the court to make that decision.
 
collegeboy69us said:
If there is an issue of code theft or him taking elements of design there might be a case... but as for someone doing what they want on their off time and a company "owning" that idea.... fuck that shit.

If I come up with a new exhaust design for cars I race on the weekend, or dream up a fancy awesome back porch design... why would anyone argue or think that my employer owns those ideas/designs?

What's funny though is zenimax can already see their future... look what happen when carmack left iD. They are now a hollowed out sinking ship because they can't come up with any good ideas without carmack.
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Using your exhaust example that depends on what your job is. If your job was to develop high performance exhaust systems then your employer would likely own it, especially if your contract stipulated that they do. One reason for this is that it would be difficult to prove when an idea came about and companies don't want to spend money on research only to have an employee make a breakthrough, withhold it and then turn around and sell the idea to a competitor claiming that they thought it up on the weekend.

Another reason is that if you come up with something on your own time that is directly related to something you're developing for an employer then that idea didn't happen in a vacuum, it's likely that information learned on the clock contributed to the idea. Think of it this way. If you're developing something and get stuck on a problem for a couple weeks and then the solution comes to you while you're at home in the shower should you own the idea even though it's the culmination of weeks at work on the clock and using their facilities?

I don't have enough info to say who is in the right but if Carmack was working on VR for them then there's a decent chance they have a good case.
 
Ebernanut said:
Using your exhaust example that depends on what your job is. If your job was to develop high performance exhaust systems then your employer would likely own it, especially if your contract stipulated that they do. One reason for this is that it would be difficult to prove when an idea came about and companies don't want to spend money on research only to have an employee make a breakthrough, withhold it and then turn around and sell the idea to a competitor claiming that they thought it up on the weekend.

Another reason is that if you come up with something on your own time that is directly related to something you're developing for an employer then that idea didn't happen in a vacuum, it's likely that information learned on the clock contributed to the idea. Think of it this way. If you're developing something and get stuck on a problem for a couple weeks and then the solution comes to you while you're at home in the shower should you own the idea even though it's the culmination of weeks at work on the clock and using their facilities?

I don't have enough info to say who is in the right but if Carmack was working on VR for them then there's a decent chance they have a good case.
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I'd have to argue that nearly all ideas do not happen in a vacuum, we all come up with no ideas and behaviors based on previous experiences. If Zenimax can claim IP on something he came up with on his own time that's related to work he did at Zenimax but not on the clock then we are all in real trouble if we ever become creative in our respective fields...
 
USMCGrunt said:
I'd have to argue that nearly all ideas do not happen in a vacuum, we all come up with no ideas and behaviors based on previous experiences. If Zenimax can claim IP on something he came up with on his own time that's related to work he did at Zenimax but not on the clock then we are all in real trouble if we ever become creative in our respective fields...
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Your past experience and knowledge gained from that experience is a good part of what you're paid for when hired for this type of job, they wouldn't hire someone with no experience in the field. What I'm saying is that when you work on something like this for someone you have access to information and resources that facilitate new ideas, even if you come up with a related idea on your own time it's much less likely that you would have without access to those resources.

Now companies that think they own everything you create when it has nothing to do with your job are clearly in the wrong but there are legitimate cases where someone claims ownership of an idea that wouldn't have been possible without money spent by their employer, it''s also hard to prove when an idea was created and we all know the honor system doesn't work when large sums of money are involved.
 
Ebernanut said:
Your past experience and knowledge gained from that experience is a good part of what you're paid for when hired for this type of job, they wouldn't hire someone with no experience in the field. What I'm saying is that when you work on something like this for someone you have access to information and resources that facilitate new ideas, even if you come up with a related idea on your own time it's much less likely that you would have without access to those resources.

Now companies that think they own everything you create when it has nothing to do with your job are clearly in the wrong but there are legitimate cases where someone claims ownership of an idea that wouldn't have been possible without money spent by their employer, it''s also hard to prove when an idea was created and we all know the honor system doesn't work when large sums of money are involved.
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Im not sure why I said "...we all come up with no ideas and ..." but I didn't mean to have that 'no' in there...damn fingers have a mind of their nown...

I do see your argument but that's a bullshit concept that stifles creativity and progress.
 
If you're an exhaust designer and a bigger company bought your company JUST TO GET YOU, then you came forward with a revolutionary oil filter and they told you forget it, they don't do oil filters and threw your prototype into the trash, then you left to go work for someone who made oil filters...
Should the company that made exhausts be allowed to sue your new company even though they had no interest in your oil filter until you were gone?
 
This lawsuit will go on for a while and then will end with a settlement of an undisclosed of (LARGE) amount.
 
USMCGrunt said:
Im not sure why I said "...we all come up with no ideas and ..." but I didn't mean to have that 'no' in there...damn fingers have a mind of their nown...

I do see your argument but that's a bullshit concept that stifles creativity and progress.
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Yeah, I knew what you meant(curse that no editing policy).

The idea of IP rights comes from concept that if everyone else is able to profit from a companies research then there's less incentive for companies to invest in developing new technologies, the same concept can be applied this type of situation. The patent trolls have shown that this isn't a one sided issue but I can see how companies don't want someone else to profit from research that they funded.
 
Remon said:
To be honest, I wouldn't blame Valve if they sued Oculus like this. They shared VR technology with them and then they went and gave it to Facebook.
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I completely agree, the whole thing seemed like a huge slap in the face to valve.
 
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