What is the fastest 60hz screen without LED PWM Dimming?

why not one of the brand new Benq 144hz ones where they made an effort to take out the PWM?
 
Mokkat said:
that one has PWN, I meant the XL2420TE and XL2411TE (or is it XL2420T/XL2411T rev 2?)
Click to expand...

No idea, but the biggest problem I have with PWM is this:

BlurLED.png


It hurts my eyes, especially when gaming
 
Dawgus said:
No idea, but the biggest problem I have with PWM is this:

BlurLED.png


It hurts my eyes, especially when gaming
Click to expand...
So you're also someone who gets bothered by PWM artifacts, instead of PWM flicker.
Yes, it's also been posted in the BlurBusters LCD Motion Artifacts 101:

pursuitcam_pwm.jpg
PWM artifacts
(real pursuit-camera photos)

A new followup quesetion: Do you ever get CRT eyestrain or plasma eyestrain? If not, have you ever considered trying 120Hz or LightBoost? (LightBoost is a strobe backlight, but it is one pulse per refresh eliminates the repeat-image artifacts, producing CRT-like motion). I get PWM eyestrain but no LightBoost eyestrain (and several others agree too - Vega has confirmed, plus other people). If you never got eyestrain from CRT, but you get eyestrain from PWM, you're a segment of population that will probably be sensitive to LightBoost benefits (zero blur, zero ghosting, zero PWM), see 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost. For some people like me, Vega, and several other artifact/blur-sensitive people, LightBoost actually reduces eyestrain rather than increased eyestrain, since it can avoid duplicate-image artifacts if you have a fast GPU that can run at full framerate=Hz motion. (You'll not want to run only 60fps@120Hz for LightBoost, that will create a double-strobe artifact). If you are not familiar with LightBoost, see the LightBoost FAQ. A prime disadvantage is the GPU power needed for framerate=Hz, but at least you can turn off LightBoost and still get the benefits of regular 60Hz or 120Hz.

CROPPED_60Hz-300x99.jpg
60Hz LCD

CROPPED_120Hz-300x100.jpg
120Hz LCD

CROPPED_LightBoost50-300x100.jpg
LightBoost motion blur elimination
(real pursuit-camera photos)

Actual motion animation used for the above photos: www.testufo.com/ghosting

Alternatively, if you get flicker eyestrain of all kinds (can't stand plasma, can't stand CRT), then definitely, definitely consider a PWM-free monitor to reduce PWM eyestrain.

If you mainly game with your monitor and hate PWM artifacts, and want the nicest looking motion that can become artifact-free, I highly recommend the BENQ XL2420TE, because the same monitor has both a PWM-free mode, and a LightBoost mode. You can run it at 60Hz, or 100Hz, or 120Hz, or 144Hz, and you can run it with or without LightBoost (100, 110, 120Hz). So many options, so you can choose the mode your eyes likes the most! The BENQ XL2420TE answers your question as one of the fastest PWM-free 60Hz monitor -- just pretend 120Hz is optional. Darn near zero input lag, 1ms pixel transition. Lots of options, refresh rates and modes to experiment with.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I read your blog all the time. Often feel like I'm part of the 1% that has trouble with this stuff.

To be honest though, I consider PWM artifacts to be much worse than just blurring. Not to say I don't have a problem with the blurring pictures you linked above me, but the PWM artifacts are much worse. I'm actually hesitant to buy a new monitor since I always tend to be unlucky and they always have some kind of problem.

Now, I don't know about you, but even when I'm gaming... my eyes are constantly looking for errors such as blurring and pwm artifacts. Especially in slower games like MMO's where it's more obvious, which is funny since most people say stuff like this is more noticeable in fast games. You have to turn the camera a lot in MMO's though, so that's partly a reason I guess.

Now, about that BenQ. Haven't seen the TE here, but I'm from Europe though. There is a cheaper XL2411T here too.
 
Dawgus said:
Haven't seen the TE here, but I'm from Europe though. There is a cheaper XL2411T here too.
Click to expand...
XL2420T Revision 2.0 (manufactured since July) is PWM-free and 144Hz capable. It's also available in Europe too:
www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-088-BQ
It says "rev2 with Flicker FREE technology". This makes it essentially the same as the XL2420TE.

Obviously, color quality won't be as good as IPS, but that wouldn't matter as much to a person more sensitive to motion blur/PWM artifacts/headaches/nausea than to color quality.
 
Mark Rejhon said:
XL2420T Revision 2.0 (manufactured since July) is PWM-free and 144Hz capable. It's also available in Europe too:
www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-088-BQ
It says "rev2 with Flicker FREE technology". This makes it essentially the same as the XL2420TE.

Obviously, color quality won't be as good as IPS, but that wouldn't matter as much to a person more sensitive to motion blur/PWM artifacts/headaches/nausea than to color quality.
Click to expand...

What about this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/AOC-E2752VQ-Widescreen-Multimedia-Monitor/dp/B008CM7OR0

I found it via digitalversus face-off: http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/face-off/14445-14523-versus-table.html

The image shows zero ghosting, was thinking about ordering one for my brother and then the BenQ for myself so I can compare both.

Off-topic: Was playing my 3DS earlier (3d effect off) and I was playing a pokemon game where you go a lot of left/right/up/down. Everytime I did this, the overworld textures began to shake like ghosting. You know, for example, when I see a black television set against a wall and I run to the right.... Then you can see the left and rightern edges of the tv kinda ghosting. Not super much, but pretty noticeable. Is this the sample & hold effect again? (Handheld games are 30 fps). I was wondering this because objects blur at both sides when I move. I thought ghosting was just a trail on one side of an object? (If you run to the left, the right side of an object will ghost fore example)

Sorry for the wall of text :p Every friend of mine with a 3DS doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about. I wonder if some people just can't see ghosting..
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
The VP2770 picture DV used in that comparison is the result of camera error, the ghost image forms behind the moving object, not in front unless it is moving from right to left. The AOC will use LED PWM Dimming.

The Viewsonic is a good choice if you can hadle minor streaking/smearing, so are the PWM Free BenQ BL2710PT, Eizo EV2736W & EV2336 (PWM is used when the brightness is set below 20%). The BenQ XL2420T Rev 2/TE is probably the only PWM free right now.
 
Afaik, the XL2411T is PWM-free too AND it is as good as the XL2420T when it comes to ghosting and trailing. In fact, it's slightly better afaik.

http://pcmonitors.info/reviews/benq-xl2411t

There is still some inverse ghosting etc but even the more expensive Asus VG248QE has that problem

So it seems the XL2411T is the best bang for buck atm, no?
 
Dawgus said:
Afaik, the XL2411T is PWM-free too AND it is as good as the XL2420T when it comes to ghosting and trailing. In fact, it's slightly better afaik.

http://pcmonitors.info/reviews/benq-xl2411t

There is still some inverse ghosting etc but even the more expensive Asus VG248QE has that problem

So it seems the XL2411T is the best bang for buck atm, no?
Click to expand...

That was my logic too, I'm hoping to pick up an XL2411T around Christmas time....
 
You'll have to watch out for the right model though:

Update: As of July 2013 the XL2411T has been upgraded to the new flicker-free (PWM free) ‘Revision 2.0′. The P/N associated with this is 9H.L9SLB.DBE.
 
I've just got hold of a Benq BL2411 and it's pretty nice. It's 1920x1200, IPS, light anti-glare coating, no PWM, no ghosting, no input lag, uniform screen, no clouding, no flicker, no real problems I can think of. The only slight issue is when I play a 1080p game, if it's DX11 it won't stay in 16:9 aspect ratio, it fills the whole screen (16:10), whereas DX9 games maintain black borders and keep the correct ratio. Any ideas for a solution would be appreciated. But yep, I would definitely recommend this monitor. It's an improvement on my Dell U2311H which has a sugar frosted AG coating which is SO obvious now I'm comparing it alongside the Benq! :)

Btw, I haven't actually seen these 120Hz monitors in action, but to me 60Hz is fine. There is no noticeable lag or blurring whatsoever. I do remember my old CRT ran in 120Hz but I don't remember it being much better? Maybe my memory is going lol?
 
mr-freeman said:
Btw, I haven't actually seen these 120Hz monitors in action, but to me 60Hz is fine. There is no noticeable lag or blurring whatsoever. I do remember my old CRT ran in 120Hz but I don't remember it being much better? Maybe my memory is going lol?
Click to expand...
You'll begin noticing motion blur if you view these links:
-- Are you able to read the map labels at www.testufo.com/photo#photo=toronto-map.png at 960 pixels/sec?
-- What happens when you view www.testufo.com/eyetracking ?
 
Well to be honest, that isn't representative of real-world gaming use. It doesn't seem that blurry, just hard to focus on at that speed. But if you were moving that fast, you wouldn't be attempting to read a sign anyway! For general games (including fps), my monitor is fine, maybe I wouldn't win in a top-tier professional pro-gaming multi-million dollar competition but who cares? For £230 I think it's excellent value. (And the colours aren't degraded due to the lightboost either).
 
mr-freeman said:
Well to be honest, that isn't representative of real-world gaming use.
Click to expand...
There are people who think it is definitely relevant...
Fast turning. Fast strafing. Identifying and shooting enemies without stopping turning first. Fast strafing. Improved Battlefield3 scores with zero motion blur. Fast 180 degree flicks are MUCH faster than www.testufo.com/photo ...

It doesn't seem that blurry, just hard to focus on at that speed.
Click to expand...
It isn't hard to focus if it's on a CRT or LightBoost.

Here's a real-world scenario: Just pretend a paper book is panning past your face, or you're turning while holding a book out in front of you. Instead of a computer monitor image -- the panning speed of 960pixels/sec is simply 1 foot per second, which is quite easy for human eyes to track. The motion blur you are seeing in panning is caused by the sample-and-hold effect ( www.testufo.com/eyetracking ) This is the most common cause of motion blur of a modern LCD computer monitor -- the sample-and-hold effect seen in the animation at www.testufo.com/eyetracking

Even John Carmack says so in his QuakeCon YouTube video, at 12min00sec:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93GwwNLEBFg&t=11m55s

At 12min20sec, John Carmack of iD Software explains why you can read something that's physically moving, but can't read anything moving on a screen -- that's because of motion blur on your monitor, NOT because of your inability to track motion. Also, it becomes even more important for virtual reality too, when your head is turning, and the display is forcing motion blur upon you that's not related to your human limitations.

But if you were moving that fast, you wouldn't be attempting to read a sign anyway!
Click to expand...
False. At least for me and several others.
Some of us like to track and identify enemies while we're turning fast & moving sideways really fast; being able to identify tiny enemies during circle strafing, being able to identify camoflaged enemies during high-speed low passes in the ideal scenario of framerate=Hz smooth motion. (e.g. 120fps @ 120Hz).
 
Last edited:
Fair points, but do you play competitively or just for fun? I think it's more important for hardcore gamers rather than more casual gamers (I would consider myself halfway between the 2). But of course I agree the extra hz must be beneficial, I just wish they could do the 120hz without colour or other degradation of any kind (like the old crts!). I used to have an Iiyama visionmaster pro 454, and the refresh rate went up to 200hz! But I could only use 150hz or 120hz in games (depending on the resolution). That was sweet! :) But then the tube blew (probably because of using a high refresh rate for so long), lol.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top