Ballmer Admits Surface a Flop, Windows 8 Sales Are Disappointing

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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This just in: Steve Ballmer has been abducted by aliens and replaced by a clone. A report from an in-house town hall event has Ballmer expressing disappointment with Surface RT and Windows 8 sales. This is a giant departure from Ballmer’s cheerleading role as Microsoft’s CEO. Who are you and what have you done with the real Steve Ballmer? :eek:

Ballmer admitted to Microsoft employees that the company “built a few more” Surface RT tablets “than we could sell,” which might be an understatement given Microsoft’s recent $900 million charge.
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drop the price to 199.99 and the Surface RT will fly off the shelves :p
 
They weren't as successful as they had hoped to be in their plan to tell consumers what they want instead of listening to what they actually want. Apple could still teach them a thing or two in that department.
 
We all pretty much saw this coming. Well, almost everyone in this forum anyhow. A few people were pretty certain Windows 8 and the Surface tablets were going to be successful or somehow useful.
 
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Heatlessun, Tsumi ?

Oh where art thou?

Where are the White Knights of Windows 8 superiority?
 
It's not any single thing that hurt Surface RT sales. It's rather more like 'Death by a thousand cuts'. In the interest of full disclosure before I get started - I have a 128G Surface Pro.

1) A large portion of the appeal of the Surface hardware is in the feel of it, which is very subjective. Initial inventory was ONLY available from Microsoft Stores - If you didn't live near one of the 3 of those, you had to order online - which brings us to

2) Online orders were screwed up left and right. There was a lot of press around that time about Surface orders getting lost or delayed for weeks

3) Unfocused advertising campaign (aka Marketing Failure). These commercials came out with the dancing and the clicking - these were fine as TEASERS to generate interest in the devices, but they should have been followed up with OTHER commercials showing what these machines actually do. Even when interest was tgenerated, no one could find the damn things (see no.1 above). I don't even remember those commercials having a URL for people to see what it was about. Also, the TEASER commercials very prominently showed the keyboard cover which brings us to

4) The Keyboard cover, which was very heavily featured in the only marketing out for the Surface, didn't actually come with the Surface. You got to order that seperate for $100 if you wanted it.

5) Windows RT (and by extension, Surface RT) was deliberately gimped. These devices screamed Corporate Market, but with no Active Directory integration features, and the License restrictions for the bundled MS Office, it was a no-go.And for that Office version, the macro ability was removed. . . not because of any technical hurdles to implementing it, but because MS did not want people using VBA to write their own applications for the unit (I read this on ZD Net, I believe). Last, but niot least, the only available mail client did not support the most common mail protocol in the workls - POP3.

6) The Windows RT branding is confusing to consumers. If it's Windows, I can buy Windows programs, right? Right? The Windows name should have been dropped from Windows RT entirely.

7) Microsoft wanted to compete with this directly against the iPAD and priced accordingly. The iPAD 2 had a superior screen, faster processor, fully fleshed out App store and near insurmountable lead in mindshare. The Surface had. . . a gimped version of Office 2013.

8) The Metro interface (which is the primary interface on Surface RT) is lacking in polish. Only with Windows Blue do we actually get most Control Panel functions actually integrated into the touch interface. Many settings required going to the desktop control panel, which pretty much required a seperate mouse (or the Keyboard cover) to navigate. Because touch does not cut it on the desktop interface (elemts are way too small to reliably manipulate)

I could go on, but I have to go to work. You get my drift.One last thing - Why hasn't Microsoft made pinch-zoom work on the desktop itself? That would do amazing things for the touch usability of the dekstop on the Surface RT and Pro.
 
Yeah, that's not very Ballmer like. Someone must have pissed in his corn flakes this morning. You should be careful posting news like this on HardOCP though, Steve and his merry band of Microsoft fanboys might throw themselves from a tall building.:D
 
I like windows 8 quite a bit, but I had to help my dad get his el cheapo windows 8 laptop up and going to his liking a couple days back.

My father used to run circles around me with the tech stuff, was really sharp, half way through he says "I don't care about learning new stuff, I am old, why did they have to change it?"

Summed up the windows 8 thing for me pretty well.
 
They should have given these to the LA school system. Take a loss on them and get some user base going.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
A few people were pretty certain Windows 8 and the Surface tablets were going to be successful or somehow useful.
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Windows RT was going to be an uphill battle and I've said that from day one. But Windows 8.1 and the next generation of hardware I think stand a very good shot of gaining some traction, particularly with the upcoming Bay Trail Atoms which on paper a least look pretty impressive. 8.1 does fix a lot of things that were broken or incomplete in Windows 8 though still more can be done. But on the right hardware at the right price 8.1 devices are going to have a lot to offer that Windows 8 simply didn't have last year. I know a lot of folks hate Metro apps but if you're not keeping up with the changes in 8.1 and the apps that are coming out and on the way, things are much better than last year.

It is going to come down to the right devices at the right prices. We'll see how aggressive Microsoft and OEMs become in that regard but there's little choice.
 
heatlesssun said:
Windows RT was going to be an uphill battle and I've said that from day one. But Windows 8.1 and the next generation of hardware I think stand a very good shot of gaining some traction, particularly with the upcoming Bay Trail Atoms which on paper a least look pretty impressive. 8.1 does fix a lot of things that were broken or incomplete in Windows 8 though still more can be done. But on the right hardware at the right price 8.1 devices are going to have a lot to offer that Windows 8 simply didn't have last year. I know a lot of folks hate Metro apps but if you're not keeping up with the changes in 8.1 and the apps that are coming out and on the way, things are much better than last year.

It is going to come down to the right devices at the right prices. We'll see how aggressive Microsoft and OEMs become in that regard but there's little choice.
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Then by you logic they should have most likely waited to actually finish the product.

Yes what you state are entirely possible but also its most likely that there will be just as much push back. So MS just keep smashing its head into the wall.
 
The reason Windows RT failed miserably was that it was a Windows OS without the Windows applications. Being that it's an ARM device, you need apps specifically written for that platform. Which hardly anyone was doing. Which means you bought a device that couldn't run traditional Windows apps, and could only get apps from a nearly dead app store. On top of the higher price compared to Android, and on top of the fact that Android and iOS has been around long enough to establish a market.

As for Windows 8, well what can be said that wasn't? If only they just allowed customers to have a traditional desktop mode FROM THE FUCKING START! Even to this day they refuse to give back a correctly working start button.

Here's a thought, how about listening to customer feedback before releasing a product? I know, crazy right? It's not like people weren't complaining long before these products were released.
 
heatlesssun said:
Windows RT was going to be an uphill battle and I've said that from day one. But Windows 8.1 and the next generation of hardware I think stand a very good shot of gaining some traction, particularly with the upcoming Bay Trail Atoms which on paper a least look pretty impressive. 8.1 does fix a lot of things that were broken or incomplete in Windows 8 though still more can be done. But on the right hardware at the right price 8.1 devices are going to have a lot to offer that Windows 8 simply didn't have last year. I know a lot of folks hate Metro apps but if you're not keeping up with the changes in 8.1 and the apps that are coming out and on the way, things are much better than last year.

It is going to come down to the right devices at the right prices. We'll see how aggressive Microsoft and OEMs become in that regard but there's little choice.
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I was just teasing you. I couldn't resist! :)

Anyhow, I have hopes for 8.1. There's lots of improvements and I'm kind of holding off on buying a new laptop until after 8.1 has been on the market a few months. I don't see RT ever really getting anywhere though and I'm guessing that MS will call it quits in the tablet segment as a hardware vendor if generation two of the Surface stuff doesn't sell very well.
 
Windows 8, I really tried to like it. But in the end, Windows 8 ended up getting wiped from my computer and replaced with Windows 7.

I felt like I was fighting the OS all the time. Want to go to change some settings? OK, PC Settings. Cool. What happened? Where's my desktop?

I wanted to play some Solitaire. Where is it? Oh there it is. Wait, where did my desktop go?

Every time I wanted to do something, Windows 8 would send me into the ModernUI pile of shit.

I'll give you a hint Microsoft as to why Windows 8 isn't selling well. Come real close. BECAUSE IT SUCKS! Loud enough for you? I am a desktop user, with a keyboard and mouse! Stop shoving that ModernUI pile of shit down my throat! If Windows 8.1 only adds more ModernUI bullshit, they can take it and shove it up their ass.

Yes, I installed Start8, ModernMix, and WindowBlinds 8 to get some semblance of what Windows should look like but still, it always felt like I was fighting Windows 8 to stay in Desktop mode.

Microsoft has forgotten, I am the user. I own the computer. I tell the computer what to do! Microsoft doesn't!
 
[QUOWrench00;1040077618]TE=Then by you logic they should have most likely waited to actually finish the product.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think Microsoft had the luxury of waiting another year to push Windows 8 out the door. Microsoft HAD to get a tablet solution out the door in 2012 and years delay would mean that the Windows Store would be starting up just now instead of a actually having at least some decent apps in it and some major ones on the way like Facebook.

[QUOWrench00;1040077618]
Yes what you state are entirely possible but also its most likely that there will be just as much push back. So MS just keep smashing its head into the wall.[/QUOTE]

And what does that push back mostly entail? A Metro off switch and a Start Menu? When you look at now three straight quarters of Mac sales declines I think that it's pretty obvious that the classic desktop, no matter the OS, is in high demand these days. I simply see no evidence that by simply turning Windows 8 into Windows 7 that Windows 8 will take off. The problem that Microsoft is facing with Windows 8 is two fold, resistance to change in a market that is obviously changing. That's not to say that Windows 8 is perfect but Windows 7 doesn't really address the wants and needs of consumers that are looking more and more to tablets, and tablets are beginning to make their way into businesses and enterprises beyond media consumption.
 
heatlesssun said:
[QUOWrench00;1040077618]TE=Then by you logic they should have most likely waited to actually finish the product.
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I don't think Microsoft had the luxury of waiting another year to push Windows 8 out the door. Microsoft HAD to get a tablet solution out the door in 2012 and years delay would mean that the Windows Store would be starting up just now instead of a actually having at least some decent apps in it and some major ones on the way like Facebook.

[QUOWrench00;1040077618]
Yes what you state are entirely possible but also its most likely that there will be just as much push back. So MS just keep smashing its head into the wall.[/QUOTE]

And what does that push back mostly entail? A Metro off switch and a Start Menu? When you look at now three straight quarters of Mac sales declines I think that it's pretty obvious that the classic desktop, no matter the OS, is in high demand these days. I simply see no evidence that by simply turning Windows 8 into Windows 7 that Windows 8 will take off. The problem that Microsoft is facing with Windows 8 is two fold, resistance to change in a market that is obviously changing. That's not to say that Windows 8 is perfect but Windows 7 doesn't really address the wants and needs of consumers that are looking more and more to tablets, and tablets are beginning to make their way into businesses and enterprises beyond media consumption.[/QUOTE]


Yes off switch would have done the trick. Once you get a reputation its hard to get rid of it.

This is MS not apple.
Again you keep failing to actually make a point. The simple fact is 8 is a disaster.

Windows 7 didn't address the problem of tablets because it was never designed too. Windows 8 split os did neither, sucked on a tablet and it sucked on the desktop.

You keep arguing when the evidence is in front of your face.
 
I'm not sure why two versions of Windows 8 can't happen. Windows 8 Desktop, Windows 8 Tablet. Both would be compatible with x86 and ARM. This way, those who love Metro can install Windows 8 Tablet. Those who don't? Windows 8 Desktop. Simple. Have the cake, and eat it too.
 
trparky said:
I wanted to play some Solitaire. Where is it? Oh there it is. Wait, where did my desktop go?
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The same place it is when you play a PC game full screen. I guess I find it interesting that people will make this complaint on a PC but then on a mobile device no one thinks about it. Even when one is being productive on a PC do they even much see their desktop? Granted the task bar is there if it's not set to auto hide and that I think is more of the issue than seeing the desktop.
 
heatlesssun said:
The same place it is when you play a PC game full screen. I guess I find it interesting that people will make this complaint on a PC but then on a mobile device no one thinks about it. Even when one is being productive on a PC do they even much see their desktop? Granted the task bar is there if it's not set to auto hide and that I think is more of the issue than seeing the desktop.
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Blah blah argue all you want. You lost.
 
One of Windows 8's other problems is how it performs on AMD's E-series processors. Those things are in a lot of computers, including Sony's 11.6 inch VAIO. Windows 8 runs really not well on those kinds of platforms and Microsoft should have gotten AMD involved earlier so they could have worked together to better optimize the OS for budget AMD CPUs.
 
Windows 8 is going to fail because the start button doesn't bring the start menu as well, just goes back to Metro. MS did a big FU to the majority by giving the fluff back and telling us that's what we asked for. Nobody I know/talk to in the tech industry has even giving a thought about 8.1.
 
I bought my dad a Surface Pro to replace and old ailing HP laptop I bought for him over 5 years ago now and I'm always jealous of it any time I have to do setup of fix anything on it for him. Hopefully Win 8.1 will bring out a HW refresh for a few hundred bucks less, or at least faster/higher capacity SSD if it has to stay the same price.

Then again that was the pro... wtf were they thinking with that bullshit ARM RT.
 
pcjunkie said:
Windows 8 is going to fail because the start button doesn't bring the start menu as well, just goes back to Metro. MS did a big FU to the majority by giving the fluff back and telling us that's what we asked for. Nobody I know/talk to in the tech industry has even giving a thought about 8.1.
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The Start Screen/App Screen in 8.1 are better in a number of ways that the Start Menu. The biggest difference is of course the full screen nature of the Start Screen. I think that all the Start Screen would need to appease the vast bulk of people would be a way to make the Start Screen only use a 1/3rd or 1/4th of the screen. But the changes in 8.1 I think deal with most of the problems that were in 8. There's booting directly to the desktop and the ability to default the Start Screen to the App Screen and apps don't automatically create tiles on the Start Screen, that was my biggest problem with Start Screen in 8, it was difficult to manage.
 
heatlesssun said:
The same place it is when you play a PC game full screen. I guess I find it interesting that people will make this complaint on a PC but then on a mobile device no one thinks about it. Even when one is being productive on a PC do they even much see their desktop? Granted the task bar is there if it's not set to auto hide and that I think is more of the issue than seeing the desktop.
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Because when I use my PC or laptop, I use a mouse and keyboard and not my fingers. Get the difference? The mouse and keyboard are still the most productive tools I have when I need to be looking at multiple windows at the same time and running/switching between many apps simultaneously. I don't want a full screen experience when I'm using them. I want to see exactly what I'm running at any time by looking at some sort of task bar....not bringing my mouse to the upper left hand corner of my screen and waiting a second for the app switcher to appear (which is useless anyway since it doesn't work with laptop apps)

This isn't a hard concept to understand and the engineers at Microsoft know it. The problem is that the bean counters are in charge and telling them that they need to force feed the "Windows App" ecosystem down everyone's throats so that MS can make up lost ground with Apple and Google on mobile front. Well, it's not working and they are doing nothing but pissing off EVERYONE in the process. Hence the reason why IT at every company will be skipping Windows 8 just like they skipped Vista. Hopefully someone who is more in touch and competent brings Windows 9 with a fully enclosed desktop mode with the ability to easily switch to a touch mode if you are using a Lenovo Yoga type device - not a hybrid version.
 
heatlesssun said:
The Start Screen/App Screen in 8.1 are better in a number of ways that the Start Menu. The biggest difference is of course the full screen nature of the Start Screen. I think that all the Start Screen would need to appease the vast bulk of people would be a way to make the Start Screen only use a 1/3rd or 1/4th of the screen. But the changes in 8.1 I think deal with most of the problems that were in 8. There's booting directly to the desktop and the ability to default the Start Screen to the App Screen and apps don't automatically create tiles on the Start Screen, that was my biggest problem with Start Screen in 8, it was difficult to manage.
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I don't want to stop what I'm doing or looking at top open up something on the start menu. Shit. Windows 8 has been out for a year and cheerleaders still don't get that. And Windows 7 can easily boot to the desktop as well.

Honestly, the approach Windows 8 white knighters take of "it doesn't suck as much as you think it does" is ludicrous. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks, Windows 8 and Surface flopped because Microsoft didn't listen to its customers. Good riddance.
 
heatlesssun said:
I simply see no evidence that by simply turning Windows 8 into Windows 7 that Windows 8 will take off. The problem that Microsoft is facing with Windows 8 is two fold, resistance to change in a market that is obviously changing. That's not to say that Windows 8 is perfect but Windows 7 doesn't really address the wants and needs of consumers that are looking more and more to tablets, and tablets are beginning to make their way into businesses and enterprises beyond media consumption.
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And I simply see no evidence that turning the whole focus of Windows 8 on PC's into a FischerPrice environment for screen pokers was going to make their mobile offerings take off, nevermind kissing goodbye the hundreds of millions of Win8 installs they could have otherwise secured in enterprise environments at an opportunistic time as a mass migration from XP begins.

Had they simply eased off on the forced-Metro pigheadedness, they could've at least gotten Metro's foot in the door with all those enterprise seats, and wouldve bought themselves more time to make their business case for metro and make it compelling for business such that theyd have reason and incentive to begin opting in.

But no. In their shortsighted craze for overnight tablet success they forced the hand of enterprise and are forcing them onto Win7 for the next decade, such that Metro can't even be toggled back on. Ballmer looked at the one in his hand, looked at the two in the bush, said 'fuck it' - dove in headfirst and emerged empty handed wondering why he'd ever listened to Sinofsky and his hellspawn ribbonlady. We're seeing his regret now.

Bottom line, MS simply expecting everyone to swallow that metro pill with no meaningful or natural evolution and extension to people's ways of working with the computer, no meaningful apps and believing simple change for the sake of change would be enough to vault people and businesses over the fascination threshold, all in some half hearted attempt to get people interested in their stillborn mobile offerings, that was just never going to work.
 
Mr. K6 said:
I don't want to stop what I'm doing or looking at top open up something on the start menu. Shit. Windows 8 has been out for a year and cheerleaders still don't get that. And Windows 7 can easily boot to the desktop as well.

Honestly, the approach Windows 8 white knighters take of "it doesn't suck as much as you think it does" is ludicrous. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks, Windows 8 and Surface flopped because Microsoft didn't listen to its customers. Good riddance.
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Yup - we shouldn't need convincing that a product is "great," we should know it simply by using it. MS is no longer the only game in town, they need to understand that they have no room to push products like Windows 8 simply because THEY think it's better.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
I'm not sure why two versions of Windows 8 can't happen. Windows 8 Desktop, Windows 8 Tablet. Both would be compatible with x86 and ARM. This way, those who love Metro can install Windows 8 Tablet. Those who don't? Windows 8 Desktop. Simple. Have the cake, and eat it too.
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Because MS thought they could take a shortcut in an attempt to try to catch up to entrenched market leaders in mobile.

But a unified approach is also a high risk approach, there are reasons that companies like Apple avoided it, and MS is now going to spend the next couple years learning why as they hemorrhage from this strategic blunder with mobile offerings that don't get consumers excited and a desktop base of longtime windows users that have been alienated.
 
Mr. K6 said:
I don't want to stop what I'm doing or looking at top open up something on the start menu. Shit. Windows 8 has been out for a year and cheerleaders still don't get that. And Windows 7 can easily boot to the desktop as well.
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If I didn't get it then why did I mention making the Start Screen configurable to take a percentage of the screen? The Start Menu isn't necessary for that. I don't think it's as big of a deal as some make it from a productivity standpoint but yes it is different.

Mr. K6 said:
Honestly, the approach Windows 8 white knighters take of "it doesn't suck as much as you think it does" is ludicrous. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks, Windows 8 and Surface flopped because Microsoft didn't listen to its customers. Good riddance.
Click to expand...

I always find it interesting that people that use Windows 8 as their daily driver are called White Knighters or fanboys instead of just experienced Windows 8 users. If one doesn't like Windows 8 then they don't like it. But people who don't like it and don't use it seem to magically understand it better than those that use it constantly.
 
Microsoft tried to force-feed Metro to everyone and failed, so I'm now going to refer to it as Windows Alien8.
 
There is nothing wrong with metro... I actually like it over the "standard" start menu. Windows 8.1 actually makes me more productive in the sense that I have less clicks to perform the same actions I would do in Windows 7... and Ive grown to use keyboard shortcuts. Your average person is just ignorant and jumps on bandwagons like they do with every new thing thats eventually accepted.
 
Wrench00 said:
I don't think Microsoft had the luxury of waiting another year to push Windows 8 out the door. Microsoft HAD to get a tablet solution out the door in 2012 and years delay would mean that the Windows Store would be starting up just now instead of a actually having at least some decent apps in it and some major ones on the way like Facebook.

[QUOWrench00;1040077618]
Yes what you state are entirely possible but also its most likely that there will be just as much push back. So MS just keep smashing its head into the wall.
Click to expand...

And what does that push back mostly entail? A Metro off switch and a Start Menu? When you look at now three straight quarters of Mac sales declines I think that it's pretty obvious that the classic desktop, no matter the OS, is in high demand these days. I simply see no evidence that by simply turning Windows 8 into Windows 7 that Windows 8 will take off. The problem that Microsoft is facing with Windows 8 is two fold, resistance to change in a market that is obviously changing. That's not to say that Windows 8 is perfect but Windows 7 doesn't really address the wants and needs of consumers that are looking more and more to tablets, and tablets are beginning to make their way into businesses and enterprises beyond media consumption.[/QUOTE]


Yes off switch would have done the trick. Once you get a reputation its hard to get rid of it.

This is MS not apple.
Again you keep failing to actually make a point. The simple fact is 8 is a disaster.

Windows 7 didn't address the problem of tablets because it was never designed too. Windows 8 split os did neither, sucked on a tablet and it sucked on the desktop.

You keep arguing when the evidence is in front of your face.[/QUOTE]

You are one of the few that doesn't like 8 on a tablet.
 
Tengis said:
There is nothing wrong with metro... I actually like it over the "standard" start menu. Windows 8.1 actually makes me more productive in the sense that I have less clicks to perform the same actions I would do in Windows 7... and Ive grown to use keyboard shortcuts. Your average person is just ignorant and jumps on bandwagons like they do with every new thing thats eventually accepted.
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Hmm considering that consumerism is about making a product the average person would enjoy, then I would say MS really dropped the ball on this one.

FIRESALE! FIRESALE! FIRESALE!
 
Steve, you may want to lock this thread before we hit five pages.

My deductive reasoning tells me this is going to be a back-and-forth match between certain specific posters on [H] that they might need their own exclusive forum to debate the trivialities of life and the origins of the universe.
 
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