HardOCP News
[H] News
- Joined
- Dec 31, 1969
- Messages
- 0
It is amazing the things companies will do to avoid taxes. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of us would probably be arrested if we tried this as an individual.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
The Document Showing Apple's Hidden Irish Tax Scheme
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
This is perfectly legal. The government created this mess with it's byzantine tax code and this is the unintended consequences of that regulatory code. People and companies are finding ways to maximize their profits and incomes because instead of American being a tax haven that has low income, property, business, and corporate taxes, it instead pushes a tax system that is punitive. This country should be a tax haven, not a tax hell. Money should be flowing in from other countries, not going offshore. Then the call from the ignorant children to have these companies and people paying their fair share would fall silent because this country would be awash with cash.
Terminus
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2001
- Messages
- 1,838
The problem I have with blaming Apple is that everyone else is also doing this - that includes Microsoft and Google.
CreepyUncleGoogle
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2013
- Messages
- 6,871
Yup, every large corporation does this. It's legal and if they don't, they'll be failing to compete effectively with businesses that do.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2009
- Messages
- 18,416
Secret and shadowy my ass. These records are available to the public and this is a very common practice.
Apple would probably be continuing on with business as usual outside the scrutiny of Congress had they not hoarded so much damn cash. Every single elected official in the Fed Gov't was knowingly supported by rich donors that do this crap, crap that is in blatant contrast to the "intention" of the tax code. But Apple's nest egg has made them a target.
What is wrong with hoarding cash? They earned it didn't they?
this. period. change the law instead of having a parade of stupid.
Skripka
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2012
- Messages
- 10,791
It means that do they not pay taxes on it...so that tax revenues fall and we have a severely underfunded government like we have now. By hoarding the cash, it also hurts the economy of everyone else-as the cash doesn't get spent or invested in all the secondary/tertiary dealers/suppliers/employees/contracters of any major company. It means wages don't go anywhere, which means employees have less cash to spend, it means people buy less...and it unsurprisingly screws our economy on all sides of the equation.
"What is wrong with hoarding cash?" Indeed.
What liberal tripe. This government is underfunded? We have a spending problem and the takers are demanding too much from the makers.
This is why I get really irritated when people make statements like "we need to tax the rich more" or "we need to tax corporations more" to be able to balance the budget and pay for everything.
The simple answer is: you CAN'T tax the rich or the corporations more. They will ALWAYS find some loophole to either avoid paying the taxes, shift the tax burden elsewhere, simply find ways to creatively increase their expenses to the point they don't make a *direct* profit, or just raise prices enough to make up the difference (i.e. making us pay it anyway).
Case in point: a large multinational in the US I worked for many years ago always purchased all of its CPU's from a specific vendor in Europe, which was owned by the same parent company -- at prices that were quite ridiculous. Basically, we always paid the LIST price for the processors, while everyone else cut deals for large discounts based on quantities. When engineering spoke up that we could purchase better processors for less from our competition we were told we were NOT allowed to do so. In other words, the profit was shifted from our division to the other subsidiary in Europe -- at a much lower tax rate. Additionally, the actual building we operated from was owned by the parent company and our division leased the building and paid maintenance fees back to the parent company in Europe, also at rather ridiculous rates from what I have heard (which were adjust annually -- based on profit forecasts). I was once told by someone higher up in the company that the few times our division made a profit, it was a fluke and simply a mistake because we actually did so much better than the initial forecasts were! In other words, they didn't foresee needing to hide as much money as they actually made.
To add insult to injury, engineering's bonuses were tied to profits. The standing joke was that "around here, we pronounce bonus, 'bone us'".
The simple answer is: you CAN'T tax the rich or the corporations more. They will ALWAYS find some loophole to either avoid paying the taxes, shift the tax burden elsewhere, simply find ways to creatively increase their expenses to the point they don't make a *direct* profit, or just raise prices enough to make up the difference (i.e. making us pay it anyway).
Case in point: a large multinational in the US I worked for many years ago always purchased all of its CPU's from a specific vendor in Europe, which was owned by the same parent company -- at prices that were quite ridiculous. Basically, we always paid the LIST price for the processors, while everyone else cut deals for large discounts based on quantities. When engineering spoke up that we could purchase better processors for less from our competition we were told we were NOT allowed to do so. In other words, the profit was shifted from our division to the other subsidiary in Europe -- at a much lower tax rate. Additionally, the actual building we operated from was owned by the parent company and our division leased the building and paid maintenance fees back to the parent company in Europe, also at rather ridiculous rates from what I have heard (which were adjust annually -- based on profit forecasts). I was once told by someone higher up in the company that the few times our division made a profit, it was a fluke and simply a mistake because we actually did so much better than the initial forecasts were! In other words, they didn't foresee needing to hide as much money as they actually made.
To add insult to injury, engineering's bonuses were tied to profits. The standing joke was that "around here, we pronounce bonus, 'bone us'".
Skripka
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2012
- Messages
- 10,791
Really? If we terminated all discretionary spending right now, we still would not be able to pay our bills with our 2013 tax revenues. That means we have both a revenue and a spending problem.
Liberal tripe indeed. You're spouting your own tripe.
The country you're talking about only existed as a wild figment of your overactive imagination.
In summary: if you find a way to actually make large companies pay taxes and avoid this type behavior, you will be the first person in history to ever manage it.
Basically, when it comes to taxing the rich and corporations, as yourself the following questions...
1) Which bracket of society do the members of Congress belong to?
2) Who funds Congressional campaigns, PAC's, and lobbying groups?
3) Where do the members of Congress plan to work once they leave office?
Then ask yourself this: exactly how many of you believe that the average member of Congress is honest enough to ever pass a tax law that doesn't include loopholes that THEY can take advantage of themselves? In other words, how many of them do you think would actually vote to really raise their own taxes?
In other words, the odds of ever ACTUALLY increasing the real rate of taxes on either the rich or corporations (which are basically two sides of the same coin) are virtually ZERO.
Basically, when it comes to taxing the rich and corporations, as yourself the following questions...
1) Which bracket of society do the members of Congress belong to?
2) Who funds Congressional campaigns, PAC's, and lobbying groups?
3) Where do the members of Congress plan to work once they leave office?
Then ask yourself this: exactly how many of you believe that the average member of Congress is honest enough to ever pass a tax law that doesn't include loopholes that THEY can take advantage of themselves? In other words, how many of them do you think would actually vote to really raise their own taxes?
In other words, the odds of ever ACTUALLY increasing the real rate of taxes on either the rich or corporations (which are basically two sides of the same coin) are virtually ZERO.
This
Who here doesn't take every possible deduction when filing their taxes?
I have two kids, should I only claim 1 as a dependent because someone might think Im not paying my fair share? Fuck that. Im taking every single possible deduction I legally can.
The freaking problem is with our tax law.
I don't even know where to begin...
How much of what Apple does could be considered success, and how much of it could be considered thievery?
Knight_of_BAAWA
Gawd
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2005
- Messages
- 806
Good. Starve the beast.
That Keynesian nonsense has been debunked so many times that it's a wonder people still trot it out.
Knight_of_BAAWA
Gawd
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2005
- Messages
- 806
That's what taxation is though: thievery.
Huh? The alternative is:
- The government invoices you for infrastructure, defense, and other essential services.
It's not thievery if you're getting provided with a service. The main issue is the type of stuff a lot of us are paying for that we don't agree with (excessive defense spending, bailouts, welfare, take-your-pick, etc).
Seventyfive
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2004
- Messages
- 1,347
Actually you're completely wrong. Hoarding cash does not hurt the economy because the bank holding the cash can use that cash to make loans to productive people. It's how a bank works. Not sure if you've ever seen "it's a wonderful life" but they try to explain it.
The only thing that "screws the economy" is the government giving money to people who are not productive. An economy breaks down when someone is paid $1 for something that is not worth $1. And while we can all agree or disagree what is worth one dollar, it's worth noting that the government is the only entity in the world that can TAKE a dollar from you by force legally. Then they can give this dollar to anyone and typically, given the history of government waste and abuse, they do not get a dollar's worth of goods in return. So you can reply with some communist tripe about how much a CEO gets paid or how much apple makes but at the end of the day he/it didn't steal the money, people voluntarily paid it.
Try voluntarily not paying taxes and let's see how that goes.
Skripka
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2012
- Messages
- 10,791
Tell me again how cash hoarded off seas in untaxed complicated financial instruments you need a degree in econ to understand... Gets circulated back into this country and loaned out to productive people. Because clearly you're willing to make excuses.
Because the way these stunts work is completely not like how a bank works.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2009
- Messages
- 18,416
Ireland taxed it, which is fine. They make good whiskey.
Skripka
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2012
- Messages
- 10,791
Did they, or is that just what you're telling yourself to make yourself feel better? You don't make a shell company in Ireland to hide billions of dollars from taxes, with hundreds of thousands of shares in the Virgin Islands tax shelters just to end up paying 2% corporate tax to Ireland.
Make no mistake, Ireland is getting just as few tax dollars out of this as we do.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2009
- Messages
- 18,416
Fewer dollars, even. But after payroll tax, what else is fair?
I agree in principle -- but there is one simple problem.
You CAN'T change the rules of the game.
In the world we live in, the word to remember is MULTI-NATIONAL.
If they try making Apple pay taxes, Apple will pack up and leave -- taking their jobs and all their taxes with them -- and they will continue to sell iPad's back into the US from overseas. Net result, lost jobs and lost tax revenue.
Tax companies sounds great on paper, but as long as they CAN go elsewhere, you simply can't do it. Even if you impose massive import tariffs on goods, that just end's up hurting your citizens more and damaging the economy across the board (tariff's are rarely a good thing, in any case).
The key is to give companies tax breaks if they HIRE more employees, build more factories, etc. and don't sit on their capitol. You have to come up with creative ways to get them to SPEND the money in your country and then you can tax the employees and the spending.
The rich own the corporations.
The corporations own the politicians.
The politicians are the rich.
By and large, Politicians are crooks.
Now tell me, exactly what are odds of any of this ever getting fixed????
Just remember: Dumb criminals get caught. Smart criminals get elected.
The corporations own the politicians.
The politicians are the rich.
By and large, Politicians are crooks.
Now tell me, exactly what are odds of any of this ever getting fixed????
Just remember: Dumb criminals get caught. Smart criminals get elected.
Skripka
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2012
- Messages
- 10,791
Tell me about all the jobs Apple has left in the USA to pack up and leave... Because last I knew, aside from the retail stores... There aren't that many jobs in the USA direct from Apple to start with... Apple in their PR goes so far as to count IOS app devs, corning employees, they also literally include the FedEx man who delivers your macbook, and their own health care providers.
And we haven't even discussed the common practice of towns offering huge local and state tax breaks for Apple stores.
So if Apple (and other multinational corporations) do not bring the majority of it's profits into the US, why does the US care about protecting Apple (and other multinational corporations) intellectual property?
Seems to me if Ireland (or other tax haven) is where their profits go, they should use Irish (or other tax haven) courts, and Irish (or other tax haven) international political influence to protect their IP. If those tax havens have crappy courts and insignificant international political influence...Too bad, so sad, maybe you'd rather be an American company? Oh right, we charge for such services and your accountants didn't want to pay. If some American company wants to set up a factory and make iKnockoffs, employ American workers and pay American taxes, so much the better, they will probably be able to make up the difference in design cost savings.
Seems to me if Ireland (or other tax haven) is where their profits go, they should use Irish (or other tax haven) courts, and Irish (or other tax haven) international political influence to protect their IP. If those tax havens have crappy courts and insignificant international political influence...Too bad, so sad, maybe you'd rather be an American company? Oh right, we charge for such services and your accountants didn't want to pay. If some American company wants to set up a factory and make iKnockoffs, employ American workers and pay American taxes, so much the better, they will probably be able to make up the difference in design cost savings.
temujin987
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,351
damn, I want to pay just 12%...
You can.
In a fair tax system you could pay close to that.
I'm not going to bother addressing our most foaming at the mouth liberals here but I will say that it saddens me the confiscatory attitude that infects this generation. You either view government like a religion or are intellectually dishonest if you claim that this government a good steward of our money. Unfortunately, the monkeys have voted themselves bananas instead of climbing trees.
For my son's fourth birthday we had an dino egg hunt and had baskets for the kids. We had about 75 eggs hidden and about 10 kids hunting them down. At the end of the hunt most kids averaged about 5 eggs including my son execpt this little girl who apparently was gifted in hunting eggs. She had so many eggs that they were falling out of her basket. I thought it would be humorous to gather the kids and ask her to distribute her "excess" to them she was visibly upset but agreed. When I took more than half (fair share right?) she said that was not fair since she did all the work to get them. The parents had a good laugh and a snicker from an Obama voter. In the end I congratulated them all on a job well done and said next hunt work harder, faster and to get some more eggs. They all moved on and enjoyed their spoils and hopefully some of them will learn that trying harder next time instead of taking is the moral and ethical thing to do.
Going back quickly to Apple, they earned this money lawfully. They paid 6 billion in taxes. I repeat they paid 6 billion in taxes. How much is enough?
For my son's fourth birthday we had an dino egg hunt and had baskets for the kids. We had about 75 eggs hidden and about 10 kids hunting them down. At the end of the hunt most kids averaged about 5 eggs including my son execpt this little girl who apparently was gifted in hunting eggs. She had so many eggs that they were falling out of her basket. I thought it would be humorous to gather the kids and ask her to distribute her "excess" to them she was visibly upset but agreed. When I took more than half (fair share right?) she said that was not fair since she did all the work to get them. The parents had a good laugh and a snicker from an Obama voter. In the end I congratulated them all on a job well done and said next hunt work harder, faster and to get some more eggs. They all moved on and enjoyed their spoils and hopefully some of them will learn that trying harder next time instead of taking is the moral and ethical thing to do.
Going back quickly to Apple, they earned this money lawfully. They paid 6 billion in taxes. I repeat they paid 6 billion in taxes. How much is enough?
Knight_of_BAAWA
Gawd
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2005
- Messages
- 806
False dichotomy. There are other options, you know.
And the mafia provides those under its "protection" with a service as well. However, I'd bet that you'd call how they get that money "extortion". Same thing.
I agree. I think at this point in history companies have a fiduciary duty to protect their assets from a government that steals from its populace to redistribute to its voting block. This is thievery.
Oh and let me make this clear I don't only blame Democrats. Republicans are just as bad and I no longer a registered Republican because of this.