Lack of Women Developers: Sexism Not The Only Reason

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This interview with Rhianna Pratchett (writer on Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, BioShock Infinite and more) is definitely your "must read" article of the day.

Pratchett: For many years I steered clear of ‘women in games’ issues. In fact, I’ll admit to being downright uncomfortable with being asked about that side of things. Mainly because I felt that the best thing I could do for women in games was just be one and do my job to the best of my ability. I didn’t have a choice about my gender. I do have a choice about my career – therefore it’s always felt more meaningful to me.
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Eww girl cooties on my man sport. Show a girl how to hold a hammer that will me the day!
 
She actually has a logical, well thought out viewpoint on sexism in the industry. She's not like so many libs, both male and female, I've had to deal with in my career, with the attitude of "all men are sexist pigs unless they totally submit to the superiority of women!" I'm really sick of the reverse sexism in the lib camps. I do respect women in the workplace, and I do feel women have just as much of a place in IT as men do. However, I will NOT simply submit to anyone, woman or man, and say they're superior to me in any way.

I do judge people in IT. It's part of the job. I judge them on their abilities and work ethic, not gender, but any time I get after a woman who did a half-ass job, I get all kinds of flack for being sexist. I don't give a rat's behind what gender you are, if you rebuild a system and forget to put that person's documents back on, you did a half-ass job. It has nothing to do with sexism. If I get complaints from the boss that I didn't get something done that a coworker says I was supposed to pick up, and I never heard anything about said task and certainly never agreed to take it, then I will have words for that coworker no matter what gender they are. If I have a coworker that starts making tickets under their name for work I do, I don't care what gender they are, I will have a problem with someone stealing credit for my work.

At least Rhianna Pratchett isn't one who is set to blame everything on sexism. I like seeing an actual intelligent, logical, responsible person.
 
Gender is largely irrelevant. What probably matters more is the level of interest a person has in a particular area, which helps to determine a career field. If males have historically been the primary consumers of games, then it's more likely that males will pursue that as a career path. That may be changing more recently, but I remember growing up that most girls couldn't give a crap about video games, while the boys were all about it. Add 20 years to that and is it really a big surprise that those boys grew up and got jobs in the gaming industry while the girls went on to do other things?

In reference to the workforce as a whole, there's just a fundamental difference between men and women which leads to a disproportionate distribution in the work force. Men are more inclined to build, destroy, create, etc. which is one reason you see more men involved in engineering and other fields where something is created or destroyed. Women tend to be more interested in people and relationships, which is why you see more women involved in nursing or jobs revolving around dealing with people (HR, teaching, etc.).

That is not to say that people can't follow whatever career path they choose, it's just people are more likely to follow a career path along their interests.
 
These posts are all examples of why the snippet posted by Steve is a ridiculously FOX news worthy quotation.
 
Like others, I see the responses as an actual rational set of points which is refreshing after all the male-bashing that has gone on in the industry for the last 6-12 months. I specifically like her point about the Tomb Raider "first-kill" controversy ... and how it quieted down when they found out a woman wrote the scene. That, to me, brutally displays how much of a double-standard exists. For some, the scene was a big problem and a male power-trip when they assumed a man was responsible for it. When they find out a woman is responsible for it all of a sudden it is empowering and fantastic. Pure double standard.
 
A good read, actually, and there are some snippets that truly show the way she thinks:

When you have any industry that’s skewed in one gender direction or another, then sexism is an unfortunate by-product. Men don’t always get an easy ride in the field of nursing, for example.
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EXACTLY!
 
Crap, can't edit in news :/

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Forgot to say that she actually goes for equality, and that other woman should follow her ideas and not use the "sexism" argument just as a bare excuse.
 
Ididar said:
some, the scene was a big problem and a male power-trip when they assumed a man was responsible for it. When they find out a woman is responsible for it all of a sudden it is empowering and fantastic.
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And it was not only a woman but a black woman, so its like double empowering. Double the empowerment.
 
In my beginning programming class, only one girl was in the room.
But in my Biology class, there were over 30 women in the room.

Genders gravitate to certain majors. So when a person breaks the mold, women in tech or men in nursing, people tend to be skeptical of the abilities.
 
The reason there is not more women in Science, Technology or Developer careers is not so much a sexist problem but more due to the social outlook on the "Geek" factor when they are young. Most women are pushed away from any form of science, computers or programming at an early age since you’re not "cool" if you like those kind of things or at least this is how it was when I was growing up.

It just a byproduct of a bad stereo type that if you like anything to do with science or computers, you are going to be an ugly, basement dwelling Nerd. Though I do not see this as much now with younger kids that are growing up now. I think as the younger generation start becoming the controlling mass of the world, this issue will eventually go away.
 
I especially liked her point that she felt a little uncomfortable being asked "what is your perspective as a woman" because her male colleagues were never asked about their male perspective on anything, just their perspective. To me, if anything, that cuts women down more than raises them up. When being asked about their "female perspective" it effectively says that the only reason we care about your perspective is because you're a woman, not because you have any particular talent in the industry. Women should be appreciated in the industry for their talent alone, not the fact that they have boobs. I especially liked this comment:

Ultimately, no one should be pushed into the spotlight in this industry simply because of their gender, but because they’ve done meaningful, interesting work that’s worth talking about. It’s the work that counts, not what the person has between their legs.
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SGTGimpy said:
The reason there is not more women in Science, Technology or Developer careers is not so much a sexist problem but more due to the social outlook on the "Geek" factor when they are young. Most women are pushed away from any form of science, computers or programming at an early age since you’re not "cool" if you like those kind of things or at least this is how it was when I was growing up.

It just a byproduct of a bad stereo type that if you like anything to do with science or computers, you are going to be an ugly, basement dwelling Nerd. Though I do not see this as much now with younger kids that are growing up now. I think as the younger generation start becoming the controlling mass of the world, this issue will eventually go away.
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It's not always even a concious decision or predeliction, either. It's easier to go with the current than it is to fight it, and sometimes it's just where you find yourself. Sure, you'll find sexist examples of people being straight up ignorant, but other times you'll find that people just take a path that appears to be easier or more attuned to them.

I don't believe for a second, however, that it excuses people for being sexist if they turn down a perfectly good and qualified Systems Administrator just for being female, but if that was the only reason that you don't see a lot of women in the field, you'd see a lot more women with the same science degrees that changed career path. Instead, you don't see a lot of women in general in technology-based sciences in the first place.

I'm also not a big believer that by understanding and pointing out that shit isn't fair for people of other nationalities/sexes/races/whatever means that you're "White Male Bashing". It's human nature to use whatever tools are at your disposal to get what you want, so you're going to see people "playing the race/sex/whatever card" just as you're going to see people abusing their "white male priviledge". And yes, all of them do end up getting played unneccesarily at times. It doesn't mean that everyone of that race/sex/whatever does it, because that WOULD be racist/sexist/or just biggoted.
 
It's the lack of kitchens in the workplace, isn't it?
 
I'm actually really annoyed that we don't have a SINGLE female in all of DSS for any buildings in any of our Houston offices. Its a total sausage fest.

But fact is:
1) There aren't as many women in the workplace period.
2) There are WAY less women applying for IT jobs
3) The average woman is far less qualified than the average man in my experience, and we're just talking about averages.

I'm helping out for interviews, and each time hoping beyond hope to find a quasi qualified female applicant, at least to just hit the "woman" quota. Every single time though, they completely fail at the technical questions portion of the interview to demonstrate competency.

Women should NOT get jobs over men unless they are equally or more qualified than the guys in IT. And there are fields that women dominate, and its clearly by choice, or at least by popular culture that drives women to choose certain fields over others.

It has shit to do with sexism, and if ANYTHING, I have seen how companies and universities in the fields of technology or engineering or mathematics absolutely bend over backwards for a female applicant, even if she's only mediocre.

Same thing in racing, there are very few female car and motorcycle racers, and its certainly not because they are discriminated against, because even a third place win for a female driver/rider can get your advertisers TONS of publicity. There are less applicants, and the few applicants tend to suck more often than not.
 
SGTGimpy said:
Most women are pushed away from any form of science, computers or programming at an early age since you’re not "cool" if you like those kind of things or at least this is how it was when I was growing up.
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Please elaborate on this female "victimhood".

Who is PUSHING them away? The other girls they are trying to impress or generally socialize with? No, I'm sure the answer is going to be "white men in suits that want to opress the woman". :rolleyes: :D

And rather than a push, isn't it far more likely that they are simply DRAWN to other fields that they find more appealing or are qualified for?

Over 70% of pediatric residents as of last year are currently female. Nearly 60% of current pediatricians are female. Is that because they were PUSHED out of other fields in medicine, or that the maternal nature of many women drew them to the field in greater numbers than males?

I want to live in a society of equal opportunity, I do NOT want to live in a society of forced equality.
 
Ducman69 said:
It has shit to do with sexism, and if ANYTHING, I have seen how companies and universities in the fields of technology or engineering or mathematics absolutely bend over backwards for a female applicant, even if she's only mediocre.
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Yup...you can practically get a free ride if you are female and want to pursue engineering/technology-related degrees.
 
Ducman69 said:
Please elaborate on this female "victimhood".
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Sorry if you took what I meant wrong. It is not if some strong armed young women telling you must do this or do that. But rather what common society makes out to be better for you if you are boy or a girl when you younger and it continues all through you young adult life.

For example, playing with Barbies or dolls is what most girls are expected to play with when they are little and boys are expected to be outside playing baseball or what not. (Granted this is not in all situations but it covers most) Is there any reason for that. Nope but it is what is pushed on them, so that is what they learn and so starts the cycle of bullshit social and sexual placement in society . This just doesn't happen through child hood, it continues all through life.

So in simple terms on how to fix this issue. Instead of handing your daughter a Barbie doll next time, how about giving her a telescope, a chemistry set or even a Raspberry PI to play with and help her see that there are different options in life. Also encourage them to think outside that box and not to go with the flow. Will this make her into a scientist or programmer? Can't say but I bet that her chance of following that path would be a bit higher than the girl that just played with Barbie’s.

(P.S. I know Barbies have nothing to do with it. It was just an item I chose relate a point.)
 
Ducman69 said:
Please elaborate on this female "victimhood".

Who is PUSHING them away? The other girls they are trying to impress or generally socialize with? No, I'm sure the answer is going to be "white men in suits that want to opress the woman". :rolleyes: :D
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It's just society in general that pushes them away. Their mothers, their fathers, their neighbours, their classmates, their teachers, etc etc.

These days I feel for the most part, inequality in the workplace (talking about disproportionate numbers not actual oppression) comes down to this...

Do both men and women equally want to pursue roles in all fields? I think the answer to that is "no", if it were "yes", I don't think there's anything stopping equal numbers in all fields in this day and age in western countries.

So if men and women don't want to equally pursue roles in all fields is it because:
a ) Gender differences fundamentally push men and women in different directions. Are men and women just wired differently?
b ) Society as a whole encourages men and women in different directions, affecting their desire to enter particular fields. Are men and women wired much the same and we as a society affect their desires?

This is where I personally feel the more interesting and beneficial discussion actually lies.

There doesn't need to be "white men in suits pushing that want to oppress women" for (b) to be present. It's as simple as putting your daughter in a dress saying "you're a pretty little girl" and giving her a barbie and toy oven and putting your boy in pants saying "you're a strong, handsome young man" and giving him an action figure and toy sword.

I think there's a decent amount of both (a) and (b), though I think it's interesting to consider how much of it really is gender differences and how much of it is society imposed gender bias.
 
Until society accepts them in roles that it still rejects them in , they will continue to face what they are facing.

No doubt there are other factors but we often worry about one small defining part of a very large machine instead of actually dealing with the entire machine as a whole.

Not to mention being human we are constantly struggling against a tide of total ignorance. We have the ability now , more than ever , so solve all of our general inequality as a whole. Yet we choose a system that focuses only on direct success and instant results. Such a system will never allow the growth needed to deal with the many factors in machine as a whole.
 
I stopped reading after "a bit fighty" was typed.
 
Godmachine said:
Until society accepts them in roles that it still rejects them in , they will continue to face what they are facing.
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But does society actually "reject" anyone in any fields these days? I personally don't really think that's a true statement. If you decide you want to be in a particular field, there's fuck all stopping you except your own inability to do it and in the case of minorities, if anything there's more encouragement from within those fields to get you in to it.

I think the place where the society influence comes in is at a much earlier point, actually shaping the desires of the next generation of game developers/engineers/nurses/whatever, opposed to rejecting someone who actually has those desires to begin with.
 
Tudz said:
But does society actually "reject" anyone in any fields these days? I personally don't really think that's a true statement. If you decide you want to be in a particular field, there's fuck all stopping you except your own inability to do it and in the case of minorities, if anything there's more encouragement from within those fields to get you in to it.

I think the place where the society influence comes in is at a much earlier point, actually shaping the desires of the next generation of game developers/engineers/nurses/whatever, opposed to rejecting someone who actually has those desires to begin with.
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I can tell you yes it does. With complete certainty.

I worked a Government job where I watched it happen. I was told to hire a new IT support member and I was given about 30 applicants to review and consider for an interview.

The job I had was what I would call a "boy's club" without question. We were in the middle of nowhere in the Nevada desert on Government land outside of any kind real restrictions other than not being able to wonder off where we wanted.

When I decided to interview 4 of the applicants I felt deserved further review two of which ended up being two very nice and highly educated women. I interviewed everyone and gave my boss my recommendations , he took the two applicants that were women and dismissed them right off. I asked him why? He told me that he was worried about having to "act" a certain way around them and not being able to crack jokes that were of a possible "offensive" nature even though he didn't mean them literally towards any woman near by. He also told me he had received sensitivity training from a previous job because someone had made an inappropriate joke to a female co-worker and she reported him for it.

These women didn't get dismissed because they didn't qualify or they didn't try hard enough or act a certain way in the interviews I held. They were disqualified because they were women , flat out , right in front of my face. It bothered the hell of me because I wanted a competent worker more than I wanted to please my boss's sexist nature. When I left that job I reported that entire process to his superiors and told them I was worried that he would have replaced me if I didn't comply. I should have done more but I chose not to because in that kind of work world if you speak out , you will get punished one way or another and I needed the money to much.

I'm absolutely sure that's still going on and in many job markets.
 
Why would I want my daughters developing games?

They'd be much better off with better hours and similar pay developing for a normal business. :D Actually getting a gig at Valve probably would be pretty nice.
 
Alpert said:
Eww girl cooties on my man sport. Show a girl how to hold a hammer that will me the day!
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When I was wrenching for a living, we had one girl mechanic. She worked on 4x4 transmissions and transfer cases. She could outwork most men in the shop, she was a rather burly 'female' as well. They are out there...but they are scary.
 
Oh shit, there aren't enough females developing video games?

(Didn't read.)
 
Godmachine said:
I can tell you yes it does. With complete certainty.

I worked a Government job where I watched it happen. I was told to hire a new IT support member and I was given about 30 applicants to review and consider for an interview.

The job I had was what I would call a "boy's club" without question. We were in the middle of nowhere in the Nevada desert on Government land outside of any kind real restrictions other than not being able to wonder off where we wanted.

When I decided to interview 4 of the applicants I felt deserved further review two of which ended up being two very nice and highly educated women. I interviewed everyone and gave my boss my recommendations , he took the two applicants that were women and dismissed them right off. I asked him why? He told me that he was worried about having to "act" a certain way around them and not being able to crack jokes that were of a possible "offensive" nature even though he didn't mean them literally towards any woman near by. He also told me he had received sensitivity training from a previous job because someone had made an inappropriate joke to a female co-worker and she reported him for it.

These women didn't get dismissed because they didn't qualify or they didn't try hard enough or act a certain way in the interviews I held. They were disqualified because they were women , flat out , right in front of my face. It bothered the hell of me because I wanted a competent worker more than I wanted to please my boss's sexist nature. When I left that job I reported that entire process to his superiors and told them I was worried that he would have replaced me if I didn't comply. I should have done more but I chose not to because in that kind of work world if you speak out , you will get punished one way or another and I needed the money to much.

I'm absolutely sure that's still going on and in many job markets.
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An anecdotal experience with a single boss does not a trend create and is not a mirror of "society". Maybe I'm wrong, maybe IT is a few years behind, but the general trend I see in the male dominated fields I work in (primarily mechanical engineering and scientific research) is one of encouraging females to the point where females have a distinct advantage given the same skill set and ability.
 
SGTGimpy said:
For example, playing with Barbies or dolls is what most girls are expected to play with when they are little and boys are expected to be outside playing baseball or what not.
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For every girl that plays with Barbies there is a boy that plays with GI Joes.

There have been experiments that demonstrate this is not culturally forced on boys and girls either, but that boys enjoy mock combat more than girls on average, and girls enjoy nurturing roles (Barbie is just a modern version of "playing house").

We see it since antiquity in various cultures that developed independently throughout the world. In hunter-gatherer societies, the males dominate violence (hunting/warfare) and the women child rearing, and when you look at the biological differences, this makes absolute sense.

And I don't see how playing with GI Joes or cowboys and indians or baseball and the like gives someone a leg up in mathematics, technology, automotive, or engineering.

Boys and girls in America both attend the same gradeschool classrooms together, so why is it that males consistently score higher in mathematics?

Clearly fields that involve lots of numbers are male dominated, and people can scream that its cultural brainwashing or discrimination all they want, but IMO all the evidence suggests that the sexes are NOT the same on average, and males are better at some things and females better at others. Studies have also shown that females across various cultures around the world are interested in LIVING things far more than men, which I believe comes back to the nurturing instinct, and video games, computers, guns, cars, mathematics, engineering, and the like just aren't as attractive. The mountain of evidence stares us in the face, but political correctness and the feminist movement blinds us to what an unbiased alien race landing on the planet tomorrow I believe would find plane as day.

Again, that doesn't mean there aren't insanely talented female math professors at Universities, it means that there are a hundred talented male math professors to female ones, as we're just talking averages.
 
It is a decent read, but she did make several cringe-worthy statements. Like when she mentioned how movies try to make movies that cater towards both men and women, and then proceeded to use Titanic and Hunger Games as examples.
 
Tudz said:
An anecdotal experience with a single boss does not a trend create and is not a mirror of "society". Maybe I'm wrong, maybe IT is a few years behind, but the general trend I see in the male dominated fields I work in (primarily mechanical engineering and scientific research) is one of encouraging females to the point where females have a distinct advantage given the same skill set and ability.
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You are wrong. This story is mirrored by my friends who still hold jobs in that industry and women I know who've had to struggle at times against adversity.

Its just an anecdotal experience when you literally poll a group of people get a disappointing average in return.

If sexism exists so openly across an array of industry than its not just a simple factor of "this" or "that" in the video gaming industry but in reality a problem that is a greater sum than is being discussed.
 
I've had to fire assholes who didn't respect the opinions of others, especially our women engineers.

On my team, only the best ideas win.
 
Godmachine said:
When I decided to interview 4 of the applicants I felt deserved further review two of which ended up being two very nice and highly educated women. I interviewed everyone and gave my boss my recommendations , he took the two applicants that were women and dismissed them right off. I asked him why? He told me that he was worried about having to "act" a certain way around them and not being able to crack jokes that were of a possible "offensive" nature even though he didn't mean them literally towards any woman near by. He also told me he had received sensitivity training from a previous job because someone had made an inappropriate joke to a female co-worker and she reported him for it.

These women didn't get dismissed because they didn't qualify or they didn't try hard enough or act a certain way in the interviews I held. They were disqualified because they were women , flat out , right in front of my face.
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They were disqualified because they didn't fit the corporate culture. And why didn't they fit the culture, because thanks to overzealous feminism and the laws they lobbied for, everyone else would have to walk on eggshells out of fear of doing or saying *something* women may possibly take offense to. Due to the legal climate, hiring women is now a liability. Good job feminism! /s And personally I wouldn't paint this as discrimination at all. I'd say it's just a plain old fashioned case of law of unintended consequences.
 
Ducman69 said:
For every girl that plays with Barbies there is a boy that plays with GI Joes.

There have been experiments that demonstrate this is not culturally forced on boys and girls either, but that boys enjoy mock combat more than girls on average, and girls enjoy nurturing roles (Barbie is just a modern version of "playing house").

We see it since antiquity in various cultures that developed independently throughout the world. In hunter-gatherer societies, the males dominate violence (hunting/warfare) and the women child rearing, and when you look at the biological differences, this makes absolute sense.

And I don't see how playing with GI Joes or cowboys and indians or baseball and the like gives someone a leg up in mathematics, technology, automotive, or engineering.

Boys and girls in America both attend the same gradeschool classrooms together, so why is it that males consistently score higher in mathematics?

Clearly fields that involve lots of numbers are male dominated, and people can scream that its cultural brainwashing or discrimination all they want, but IMO all the evidence suggests that the sexes are NOT the same on average, and males are better at some things and females better at others. Studies have also shown that females across various cultures around the world are interested in LIVING things far more than men, which I believe comes back to the nurturing instinct, and video games, computers, guns, cars, mathematics, engineering, and the like just aren't as attractive. The mountain of evidence stares us in the face, but political correctness and the feminist movement blinds us to what an unbiased alien race landing on the planet tomorrow I believe would find plane as day.

Again, that doesn't mean there aren't insanely talented female math professors at Universities, it means that there are a hundred talented male math professors to female ones, as we're just talking averages.
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This was touched on in the documentary I posted earlier:

http://rixstep.com/2/20111127,00.shtml
 
Tudz said:
It depends entirely on how many people you poll.
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I'll give you that. But the point is it still exists , it hasn't gotten a ton better in recent years. That's the bottom line.

The issue is real , people seem to think its improved but only fractionally compared to statistically speaking.

I do think in time things will get better but if it isn't openly discussed and debated then it will stagnate.
 
BobSutan said:
They were disqualified because they didn't fit the corporate culture. And why didn't they fit the culture, because thanks to overzealous feminism and the laws they lobbied for, everyone else would have to walk on eggshells out of fear of doing or saying *something* women may possibly take offense to. Due to the legal climate, hiring women is now a liability. Good job feminism! /s And personally I wouldn't paint this as discrimination at all. I'd say it's just a plain old fashioned case of law of unintended consequences.
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And this everyone is exactly why this continues to be an issue. You just justified my thoughts on the matter in a single paragraph.
 
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