Dear Experts; does such a display exist?

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Will_D

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I was just about to buy the 24" samsung PLS (SA850) but I stopped myself because I just know that its mediocre black-level will frustrate me (I have a 1st gen pioneer kuro plasma and my eyes are accustomed to really good black)

so here is my question: is there a monitor out there that is comparable/similar to the sa850 (including that semi-gloss finish) but with solid black levels?

would really appreciate some help, I've been reading these boards for a few days now and my head is starting to spin!
 
Yes, but you will have to deal with slower pixel response times, gamma shift worse viewing angles. There are a few A-MVA panels which can do 3-5000:1. The models mentioned in my post here will all do at least 3,000:1. The Phillips and BenQ have good overdrive, not sure about the Asus G27 as there are no reviews.

The Samsung S27A650D is the only A-MVA panel with semi-glossy coating and 3,000:1-ish contrast, but it's considerably slower than the Phillips and BenQ. The older BenQ EW/VW/BL2400 all use semi-glossy coating but they have much more ghosting than most current A-MVA panels. The Samsung's little brother, the S24A650D has slightly under-saturated colours since it only covers around 84% of the sRGB colour space while the 27" covers 95%. Overlock.ru has a review of the 27" and PRAD.de has a review of the 24."

I've seen reviews (overclock.ru and extra hardware CZ) of a few newer S24A850D's and 1x S27A850D (overclock.ru, made September 2012, most reviews are of models made in 2011) and they all did around 950:1 (vs 2011 800:1) which is excellent for a non VA panel. The Asus PB278Q and Dell U2713 also do around 950:1.

There are a few IPS which can do 1200:1 (Dell S2740L, LG IPS277L, Acer S275HL, viewsonic vx2770smh, AOC i2757Fm/Fh, Achieva Shimians, Yamakasi Catleaps, CrossOver 1440p IPS from ebay) but IPS panel quality control is either terrible (excessive back-light bleeding) or the same models will only do 700-800:1 and have poor gamma compared to the best case units. The Dell uses edge-to-edge glass, the Acer is glossy, and the Viewsonic, LG and AOC all have matte stickers which can be peeled off to reveal a glossy panel and the rest are glossy.

Most people report getting 2560x1440 Korean models (Achieva/Yamakasi/CrossOver) without back-light bleeding, but not enough have been tested by users or reviewers with colorimeters to know what kind of variances there are (2x CrossOver 27Q LED-P's were measured to have 700:1 contrast and very strong blue tints, 1 by me and 1 by overclock.ru and PRAD.de tested 2x Achieva Shimian models and their contrast dropped to 450:1 once the brightness was turned down, but this back during the spring), and there are a bunch of newer models which have never been tested.
 
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thanks NCX!

i would like to clarify 1 thing: i'm not hung-up on semi-gloss coating, i just want to avoid a really terrible anti-glare coating more than anything, so are there maybe a few more models that come to mind now?

also, i find it kind of odd that people in the 'monitor world' generally use contrast measurements to give an idea of black-level instead of just the actual MLL measurement...contrast measurements are even less relevant now than they used to be thanks to dynamic LED backlighting
 
search no more: if you really want good black levels, you are pretty much set on AMVA panels from benq and philips- look at the Gw2450 tread [H]ere. No IPS/PLS/TN panel can reach the VA black levels, and the new AMVA has reduced ghosting thanks to a new overdrive dubbed " premium AMA".
edit: and these AMVA panels are semi-glossy/ semi-matte!!
 
If you don't like grainy matte coatings, except for the Samsung 650D's, A-MVA models use regular matte coatings, and you can remove the grainy matte stickers from the Dell/Viewsonic/Acer/LG 27" IPS I mentioned above. The Asus PB278Q and Samsung 850D's use semi-glossy coating

Contrast usually remains stable across all ranges of brightness, so the higher the contrast, the deeper the black level. There is no point in mentioning the black levels since every display has a different maximum brightness and not all reviewers use the same brightness during calibration. For example, TFT Central, Extra Hardware CZ and I use 120cdm/2 brightness, Overclock.ru uses 100cdm/2, PRAD uses 140cdm/2, PC Monitors uses random brightness, and a few others only provide the min+max brightness and black levels+contrast for the min+max brightness.
 
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ok, from everything i've read over the past few day's (including this thread) i guess the benQ GW2450 is my best bet, because a 27" screen is just too big for me and as NCX mentioned above, the 24" samsung 650D has awful saturation. would anyone advice against the ben q? anything i should know about it perhaps? competitors etc.

again I can't thank you guys enough, LCD tech in general is very new to me and there is just sooo many monitors out there of different types and many potential problems, it can be almost overwhelming, yous have made this much easier so thanks! hardforum is the best!
 
Highly recommend the BenQ. Either the 24 or 27 inch. I have the 27 (GW2750HM).
 
the BenQ is just so cheap that I'm suspicious, it's almost too good to be true, there must be a catch, no?
 
NCX said:
The Dell uses edge-to-edge glass, the Acer, Viewsonic, LG and AOC all have matte stickers which can be peeled off to reveal a glossy panel and the rest are glossy.
Click to expand...

the acer is glossy. it still has a (glossy) sticker over the panel for whatever reason.
 
well I guess my next question is; how/why are they selling such a great monitor for that little money? they must be making no profit from them at all, they are just doing a public service by selling them at that price lol
 
Oh, they are probably making a profit. VA technology has been around for a long time, so it isn't as expensive to produce. It only has one HDMI port, no DisplayPort... no USB... the lack of extra connections saves them cost. And they save some $ on the build of the monitor, since it isn't fancy and only allows for a little bit of tilting. But its all I need. BenQ is putting the $ where it matters - the panel quality.

Other great thing about the BenQ is it isn't as strong a matte display.

I don't like glossy or semi glossy displays because of reflections. But I also don't like heavy matte displays because you lose some quality, but the BenQ is a nice non-heavy matte display. Good balance.
 
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but it is hard to wrap your head around the fact that the 24" ben q can be had for $180 and the 24" samsung PLS is about $450, yet the BenQ is better in many ways...there is just something not right there
 
Easy... brands like Samsung or LG a lot of the $ you are spending is buying into their brand name. Just like cars. Or clothes. Same stuff happens everywhere in retail.

If you want the best blacks and highest contrast, you want a A-MVA/MVA/VA panel. Avoid IPS and TN at all cost. There are other brands that make them other than BenQ, but the BenQ is one of the top one's. From display reviewers and user experiences.
 
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What about the new Philips 271P4QPJKEB? It looks pretty good to me. Prad.de are testing it atm.

I think Im gonna buy this one as soon as its available in my country.
 
The reason the BenQ is as cheap as it is has to do with panel pricing (AMVAs tend to be less expensive than IPS, at least generally), and BenQ probably would be considered a lower end brand.

Look up the thread on the 2450 and then read about BenQ's customer service (or lack thereof) in the US. When you buy a monitor, you are also buying the electronics and customer service. Eizos cost a fortune, but have good electronics and a 5 year warranty. Less expensive brands use cheaper stands, cheaper parts and you may be lucky to get any warranty at all.

I'm not saying the BenQ will be bad if you get it, just that there is a reason it is relatively cheap. Just get from a place with a good return policy, whatever you choose to get.

Besides what has been listed so far, there is also the S series from Dell with glossy coatings, and I think BenQ just announced the 2460, which I'd probably suggest waiting for if you can ... it may fix some of the issues that occurred with the 2450.
 
BenQ have a 3 year warranty. Same as ASUS, and I wouldn't consider ASUS a cheap brand.
 
NCX said:
Yes, but you will have to deal with slower pixel response times, gamma shift worse viewing angles. There are a few A-MVA panels which can do 3-5000:1. The models mentioned in my post here will all do at least 3,000:1. The Phillips and BenQ have good overdrive, not sure about the Asus G27 as there are no reviews.

The Samsung S27A650D is the only A-MVA panel with semi-glossy coating and 3,000:1-ish contrast, but it's considerably slower than the Phillips and BenQ. The older BenQ EW/VW/BL2400 all use semi-glossy coating but they have much more ghosting than most current A-MVA panels. The Samsung's little brother, the S24A650D has under-saturated colours since it only covers around 84% of the sRGB colour space while the 27" covers 95%. Overlock.ru has a review of the 27" and PRAD.de has a review of the 24."

I've seen reviews (overclock.ru and extra hardware CZ) of a few newer S24A850D's and 1x S27A850D (overclock.ru, made September 2012, most reviews are of models made in 2011) and they all did around 950:1 (vs 2011 800:1) which is excellent for a non VA panel. The Asus PB278Q and Dell U2713 also do around 950:1.

There are a few IPS which can do 1200:1 (Dell S2740L, LG IPS277L, Acer S275HL, viewsonic vx2770smh, AOC i2757Fm/Fh, Achieva Shimians, Yamakasi Catleaps, CrossOver 1440p IPS from ebay) but IPS panel quality control is either terrible (excessive back-light bleeding) or the same models will only do 700-800:1 and have poor gamma compared to the best case units. The Dell uses edge-to-edge glass, the Acer, Viewsonic, LG and AOC all have matte stickers which can be peeled off to reveal a glossy panel and the rest are glossy.

Most people report getting 2560x1440 Korean models (Achieva/Yamakasi/CrossOver) without back-light bleeding, but not enough have been tested by users or reviewers with colorimeters to know what kind of variances there are (2x CrossOver 27Q LED-P's were measured to have 700:1 contrast and very strong blue tints, 1 by me and 1 by overclock.ru and PRAD.de tested 2x Achieva Shimian models and their contrast dropped to 450:1 once the brightness was turned down, but this back during the spring), and there are a bunch of newer models which have never been tested.
Click to expand...

wow, just wow

you, sir, are another excellent example of why I love this forum
 
NCX said:
The older BenQ EW/VW/BL2400 all use semi-glossy coating but they have much more ghosting than most current A-MVA panels.
Click to expand...

Common misconsception that i shared until i bought a BL2400PT recently: since at least jan/2012 the BL2400 uses the same panel of the GW2450 and also has the very same RTC dubbed "AMA Premium". Benq probably was too lazy to updated the model naming on the BL2400PT, a business monitor focused on ergonomics and power savings instead of response time and input lag as the so called "gaming monitors"


bl2400pt.jpg
 
So for a game like Skyrim,Diablo3...what would you recommend?Benq GW2450HM or Dell U2412M or Dell S2340L.

I've heard Benq has some ghosting in darker scenes...
U2412M might be too grainy and the colours foggy...
And S2340L seems to be an all rounder:Ips,good response time and input lag,glossy screen do the colours are better.(not bothered by reflections)

So what should I choose for a game with darker scenes and landscapes where colours matter?
 
Will_D said:
I was just about to buy the 24" samsung PLS (SA850) but I stopped myself because I just know that its mediocre black-level will frustrate me (I have a 1st gen pioneer kuro plasma and my eyes are accustomed to really good black)

so here is my question: is there a monitor out there that is comparable/similar to the sa850 (including that semi-gloss finish) but with solid black levels?

would really appreciate some help, I've been reading these boards for a few days now and my head is starting to spin!
Click to expand...

I'll be interested to know if you ever find one you're happy with, I also have an 8G Kuro plasma which makes it difficult to be completely satisfied with either of my current PC LCDs (PX2370 TN & 2333T PVA). Sure the PVA has great black levels but the motion handling with gaming leaves much desired, But the 2333T doesn't have Overdrive and i'm not sure how much it would help with overall motion vs. say, a TN panel.
 
what about the NEC EX231WP??? http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/ex231wp-bk

i don't mind that it is more expensive than the Ben Q, and NEC is known for quality. I won't be gaming so input lag and low respone time isn't important to me, there is just so little info about this NEC, can anyone chime in here? would the NEC be alot worse at video playback than the Ben Q?
 
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Will_D said:
what about the NEC EX231WP??? http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/ex231wp-bk

i don't mind that it is more expensive than the Ben Q, and NEC is known for quality. I won't be gaming so input lag and low respone time isn't important to me, there is just so little info about this NEC, can anyone chime in here? would the NEC be alot worse at video playback than the Ben Q?
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It is a TN panel, so expect worst colors and terrible viewing angles:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/monitors/364273/nec-multisync-ex231w

Displayport+ pivoting stand + ambiente light sensor+ presence sensor makes it a business monitor focused on saving power, but the so is the BL2400Pt- bigger, with a better panel and at USD279 it is on the same price range of the NEC.
 
no I'm talking about the 'P' model that uses a PVA panel, that is a different monitor you've linked to, but thanks for the intended heads-up anyways
 
If you won't be gaming get the Samsung S27A650D or BenQ BL2400 since they are semi-glossy or the Philips 273P3QPY if you want to despite blacks.
 
nice post ppl.

BTW twit tv just ran a show about black lvls. seems this subject is hiddin or none existent info because almost all the displays fall way below what a tv can produce. you may only find a few so if these guys know of one then it might be one of a few youll ever find
 
P4B said:
nice post ppl.

BTW twit tv just ran a show about black lvls. seems this subject is hiddin or none existent info because almost all the displays fall way below what a tv can produce. you may only find a few so if these guys know of one then it might be one of a few youll ever find
Click to expand...

yeah and what makes it even more disappointing is that 'they' don't seem very eager to address the black problem with LCD's. it should be their #1 priority, but instead they are focusing on ultra-high DPI and extended gamuts and all kinds of other stuff that we don't really need.

OLED cannot come soon enough, god bless samsung for pouring money into this tech. i have a nokia lumia 900 and even though the colors are oversaturated it's just stunning to behold, it's like having a little kuro in your pocket :)
 
Will_D said:
NCX, there is a BenQ BL2400PT and a BL2400PU, which were you referring to?
Click to expand...

I googled it, the PU edition carries USB ports while the PT version doesn't. In Canada the PT is 20$ less. IMO USB ports are worth it so I would go for the PU depending on the price difference (20$ difference here).

Also double checked

http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/2011/test-benq-bl2400pt-teil6.html

84% sRGB colour space coverage. This seems to be a trend for the 24" A-MVA panels. Not sure how much of an issue this is going to be.
 
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i assume both of them (the PT and PU) only cover 84% of the sRGB? that's pretty weak, even the new iphone covers the whole sRGB...so that's pretty much a deal-breaker for me

i can't seem to find how much of the sRGB this NEC EX231WP-BK covers, tftcentral said they assume it covers pretty much the whole sRGB but they didn't test it

NCX thank you again, you've been massively helpful, i wish i had known about this board sooner!
 
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The NEC covers 88%, most likely a negligible improvement.

http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/2011/test-nec-ex231wp-teil4.html#Farbraumvergleich

If you turn down the brightness on IPS/PLS, instead of keeping them cranked, and have a light on the blacks are fine on displays with 800:1+ contrast ratios.

950:1 (IPS) vs 2800:1 (Samsung C-PVA) @140cdm/2 brightness Lights Off with a 60w 6500k light bulb
inputlag067.jpg


950:1 vs 2800:1 @140cdm/2 brightness Lights On
inputlag069.jpg


The Asus is a bit reflective though so that doesn't help. The Samsung S24A850D's also do 950:1 and the coating is less reflective than the coating the Asus VG23AH in these images has
 
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again, can't thank you enough NCX

looks like i go with the GW2450 or just get an IPS...your thoughts/advice? and i should mention that i am too lazy and incompetent to calibrate, and i'm obviously not going to call out a pro calibrator for a little computer screen.
 
thank you for the pics. in the dark, the samsung is definitely better, but to my eyes there is very little difference with a light on
 
Will_D said:
again, can't thank you enough NCX

looks like i go with the GW2450 or just get an IPS...your thoughts/advice? and i should mention that i am too lazy and incompetent to calibrate, and i'm obviously not going to call out a pro calibrator for a little computer screen.
Click to expand...

You should wait some two more weeks,I've seen they launched the 60 series...and then get the GW2460HM,they are already selling it in Germany
 
How is the color coverage on the BenQ 2450/Dell S AMVA series?

The 84%ish coverage on the Samsung 650 scared me away from it a while ago. Do the newer AMVAs cover more of the S-RGB range, hopefully?

And yeah, as mentioned above, if interested in the 2450, just wait for the 2460 instead.
 
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