Minecraft Will Not be Certified for Windows 8

"Notch" Persson, the creator of Minecraft, has made it quite clear to Microsoft that he won’t be certifying Minecraft to qualify for inclusion in Windows 8 marketplace. His defiant attitude towards Microsoft is more symbolic than functional since the game will still be playable on Windows 8 operating system.

"I'd rather have Minecraft not run on Windows 8 at all than to play along," he continued. "Maybe we can convince a few people not to switch to Windows 8 that way."

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Not really sure what he's on about here. The certification he's opting out of here is for desktop applications, and simply certifies that the application follows some general best-practices guidelines that he should be doing anyway...

Rafael Rivera went ahead and tried running Minecraft through the certification process and found that it already passes for the most part. There were a few warnings that could be pretty easily cleared up. You can see his report here:
http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/

For whatever reason Minecraft doesn't have an application manifest (so Windows has no idea what permissions it actually needs), and is messing some compiler flags like DEP and ASLR (which are pretty important security features).

So is Notch opting out of... programming his game better? lol

Good, maybe people will stop playing Minecrap.

LOL. prima donna dev is prima donna. SHOCKING.

But for some reason he's submitted the mobile title to Google for certification. Oh. But they "do no evil" right?

Is it still 1998 where he lives? ZOMG! The evil M$ is coming to make me run microcrap windoez! OH NOEZ!

When microsoft starts dictating everything it will be the end of GNU/GPL and all innovation on the pc platform will come to a hault. Its Microsoft way of squeezing out competition They are eventually going to turn pc platform into a glorified Xbox. Windows is turning into a platform of creation to a platform of consumption. Just look at the WinRT SDK vs Win32 or even .Net.

Whats the difference between Government telling you what you can read and create vs a Private Corporation doing the same?

Windows 8 is one step closer to being an Xbox.

Wrench00 said:

When microsoft starts dictating everything it will be the end of GNU/GPL and all innovation on the pc platform will come to a hault. Its Microsoft way of squeezing out competition They are eventually going to turn pc platform into a glorified Xbox. Windows is turning into a platform of creation to a platform of consumption. Just look at the WinRT SDK vs Win32 or even .Net.

Whats the difference between Government telling you what you can read and create vs a Private Corporation doing the same?

Windows 8 is one step closer to being an Xbox.

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I'm sorry, but what?

Windows 8 runs exactly the same applications and handles exactly the same installation scenarios as Windows 7, nothing has been taken away, so I'm not sure how this is a step towards a closed platform.

They added an additional means to get a new type of application, but that doesn't detract from the above.

When Notch pulls Minecraft off the completely locked down XBox Live service I will care about his thoughts on this.

ocellaris said:

When Notch pulls Minecraft off the completely locked down XBox Live service I will care about his thoughts on this.

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Exactly. He had no problem with marketing it to the Xbox crowd and getting it MS certified and is even in the works of getting the latest update for it ready for MS certification. But throws a hissy fit about Windows 8 certification for the market place? Yup that makes sense .
I think it's more like he realizes that even if he went through with it on Windows 8 market place that the odds of him making up for it with more sales on the PC are kinda slim.

03grandam said:

Exactly. He had no problem with marketing it to the Xbox crowd and getting it MS certified and is even in the works of getting the latest update for it ready for MS certification. But throws a hissy fit about Windows 8 certification for the market place? Yup that makes sense .
I think it's more like he realizes that even if he went through with it on Windows 8 market place that the odds of him making up for it with more sales on the PC are kinda slim.

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You and the poster you agree with get a comprehension FAIL. Notch is talking about MS locking down the "openness" of the pc platform. The Xbox, PS3, WII are proprietary media/gaming platforms. Big difference....

pcjunkie said:

You and the poster you agree with get a comprehension FAIL. Notch is talking about MS locking down the "openness" of the pc platform. The Xbox, PS3, WII are proprietary media/gaming platforms. Big difference....

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Except Microsoft isn't locking down the openness of anything in the PC platform, you will still be able to install programs that are not "certified" just as you always have.

Its the same thing with WHQL drivers vs Non-WHQL drivers, you will get a simple warning but you can still install them just fine.

Difference is you have the choice to not use that product. When a government tells you something, the only choice that you SOMETIMES has is to move to another country. Sometimes you cannot leave by force. Competition is good, but everyone is starting to lock everything down. You can use linux and not deal with it, but otherwise Apple or Microsoft you will be locked down. People need to wake up and realize Microsoft will not be going backwards and Windows 8 is the way it will be. They cannot afford to go back, because they would be left behind thanks to mobile and tablets. If you do not like it you have the choice to use Windows 7 and it usually gets support 10+ years from now. Try asking Apple to give you that support.

Wrench00 said:

When microsoft starts dictating everything it will be the end of GNU/GPL and all innovation on the pc platform will come to a hault. Its Microsoft way of squeezing out competition They are eventually going to turn pc platform into a glorified Xbox. Windows is turning into a platform of creation to a platform of consumption. Just look at the WinRT SDK vs Win32 or even .Net.

Whats the difference between Government telling you what you can read and create vs a Private Corporation doing the same?

Windows 8 is one step closer to being an Xbox.

Click to expand...

pcjunkie said:

You and the poster you agree with get a comprehension FAIL. Notch is talking about MS locking down the "openness" of the pc platform. The Xbox, PS3, WII are proprietary media/gaming platforms. Big difference....

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The only thing locked down is the Marketplace, everything else will install just as it always has. So whats that about comprehension fail again?

Unknown-One said:

I'm sorry, but what?

Windows 8 runs exactly the same applications and handles exactly the same installation scenarios as Windows 7, nothing has been taken away, so I'm not sure how this is a step towards a closed platform.

They added an additional means to get a new type of application, but that doesn't detract from the above.

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He is the same person who likely complained about driver signing being required in win 7 x64 cause it is such a bad thing.. instead of trying to get lazy dev's to improve their code to make things more stable and cause less problems... which in the end everyone blames on MS

hackztor said:

Difference is you have the choice to not use that product. When a government tells you something, the only choice that you SOMETIMES has is to move to another country. Sometimes you cannot leave by force. Competition is good, but everyone is starting to lock everything down. You can use linux and not deal with it, but otherwise Apple or Microsoft you will be locked down. People need to wake up and realize Microsoft will not be going backwards and Windows 8 is the way it will be. They cannot afford to go back, because they would be left behind thanks to mobile and tablets. If you do not like it you have the choice to use Windows 7 and it usually gets support 10+ years from now. Try asking Apple to give you that support.

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So again, i still don't see it, but what is MS forcing you to do?

All applications you have will still run on windows 8 that worked on 7
All games you have will still run on windows 8 that worked on 7

So again.. what is windows 8 suddenly holding a gun to your head and making you do otherwise it wont work or you cant do it?

leeleatherwood said:

Except Microsoft isn't locking down the openness of anything in the PC platform, you will still be able to install programs that are not "certified" just as you always have.

Its the same thing with WHQL drivers vs Non-WHQL drivers, you will get a simple warning but you can still install them just fine.

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The next step is to close it, that is their intention.

Notch doing fucking nothing? That's new...

BoogerBomb said:

The next step is to close it, that is their intention.

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They've already closed it on WinRT/Metro. You can't install applications any other way other than through the Metro store. Being "certified" means being able to distribute the software across Metro through both ARM and x86, whether tablet or PC (provided it works on either ISA).

Considering Microsoft doesn't make anything other than the OS on an OEM ARM/Metro laptop/tablet-thing, they're locking down what the user can do with it and what they can't. That's Win8 for you.

Microsoft makes the Xbox360 just like Apple makes the iPad and all the rest of their hardware. Microsoft doesn't make the PC nor do they make all of the winRT/Win8 products yet they're locking them down. The PC and Windows were open platforms, but not any longer.

Well I don't see the big deal. I don't plan to upgrade legally or illegally to Win 8. I like 7 alot and I like XP alot as well and I stuck with XP for a long time. I still don't see any thing temping about Win 8. Thinking Win 7 is the new XP that will stick for a very long time.

Darrell262 said:

Well I don't see the big deal. I don't plan to upgrade legally or illegally to Win 8. I like 7 alot and I like XP alot as well and I stuck with XP for a long time. I still don't see any thing temping about Win 8. Thinking Win 7 is the new XP that will stick for a very long time.

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For the desktop it isn't. For the most part the change is minimal and you won't notice it -- outside of god forsaken Metro. The issue comes up when you consider what Microsoft will do next. For a software developer who now has to fork over 30% of every purchase on WinRT, do they really want to keep developing for Windows? Do game studios really want to run the risk of MS adapting that model to their entire operating system across all platforms?

There's a very good reason why so many game studios have been bitching. Microsoft wants 30% of their profits.

XBox Live closed ass system is fine, but Windows 8 Marketplace which co-exists with an open system is not? Sometimes Notch baffles me.

NKDietrich said:

XBox Live closed ass system is fine, but Windows 8 Marketplace which co-exists with an open system is not? Sometimes Notch baffles me.

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Yea it make so much sense don't it, lol. He is even updating it for the Xbox and that too will have to go through MS certification before it can be released.

As I said before, I think it all boils down to the fact that he realizes that the odds of him making many more sales on the PC side of things is pretty slim so now it's time to keep the focus on the Xbox side of things where he can put out texture packs and skins to sell if he wants while on the PC we don't have to pay for those things other than the actual game. If I recall right there is DLC for Minecraft on the Xbox that cost points (money), so yea there is more money for him to keep developing on the Xbox than it is for the PC side of it.

pelo said:

The PC and Windows were open platforms, but not any longer.

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You spent your entire post complaining about WindowsRT on ARM systems... that doesn't explain how Windows 8 is any less "open" than Windows 7 on x86 platforms (hint: it ISN'T any less open).

03grandam said:

Yea it make so much sense don't it, lol. He is even updating it for the Xbox and that too will have to go through MS certification before it can be released.

As I said before, I think it all boils down to the fact that he realizes that the odds of him making many more sales on the PC side of things is pretty slim so now it's time to keep the focus on the Xbox side of things where he can put out texture packs and skins to sell if he wants while on the PC we don't have to pay for those things other than the actual game. If I recall right there is DLC for Minecraft on the Xbox that cost points (money), so yea there is more money for him to keep developing on the Xbox than it is for the PC side of it.

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Yeah that's probably a large part of it.

I mean, if he said "Nah, not certified for Win8 because I don't really wanna bother and it runs anyway." then I could respect that. But pretending to be standing for principles when his 360 version directly contradicts them? That's lame.

Watch, if Windows 9 forces developers to distribute their software and games through the Windows Store as a requirement before it can install and run on your computer then the computer freedom we've had for decades is over. Sooner or later, Microsoft will be the gatekeeper of what gets installed and not installed on your computer, and where you buy them from. There are many reasons for Microsoft to be scared because their competitors are making significant amounts of money from it already.

It's just starting now, but we do not know for sure if this is Microsoft's TRUE intentions at the moment. Currently, Microsoft is facing stiff competition in the mobile space from both Android and iOS. Apple is one of their bigger competitors and their ecosystem, as closed off as it is, depends a lot on iTunes Store to sell and distribute books and textbooks, music, movies, games, and apps to Apple-related devices and hardware. Microsoft wants a piece of the action, too. Who doesn't? Android has Google Play and Apps Marketplace, plus Youtube. Amazon has, well, Amazon.com obviously and Amazon Instant Video and MP3 Store. Microsoft is late to the game having just announced the Xbox Music service but nothing yet for movies since Zune didn't take off as planned. They still have Xbox Live and Xbox Live Arcade, and soon Windows Store to cover apps for all of their Microsoft-related devices-- Windows 8 RT tablets and Windows Phone 8 smartphones.

Then, there is the behemoth for game distribution called Steam. EA and Nexon have both wanted to buy out Steam without any success for $1 billion and $900 million, respectively. EA's Origin service is the next competitor down, then Gamefly and GoG. Onlive is literally somewhere on the bottom. Then, there is Desura for open source gamers on Linux-based distributions (primarily). However, none has been able to top Valve's Steam software service. And, get this: Valve is intending to get Steam in the livingroom and plans on selling programs through Steam and apps through mobile Steam in the future. Linux is the next place Steam wants to make its mark and hope to find success there. Valve, too, fears Microsoft is heading in a direction it knows isn't right at all for many Windows software developers.

These are literally billion dollar industries and Microsoft is not gaining market share (to my knowledge at this time) or having a significant headway into it. By locking software developers, who many primarily use Visual Studio to develop them, into a single ecosystem like Amazon, Google, and Apple have done already, they can take a piece of the action as well. Microsoft has already started with Windows Store-- 30% cut of each purchase made of every app sold there, which is the same amount Apple charges developers. Next is the mobile space by locking down Windows 8 RT-based ARM devices to only Microsoft-related products through requesting Secure Boot from OEMs building these devices. Only programs and games bought and sold on the Windows Store can be installed on these tablets as well. That is a complete opposite of what Windows-based computers have allowed you to do on your own desktop computers for decades going as far back as DOS.

What's next after Windows 8 now? Does Microsoft truly intend to lock down the Microsoft-based ecosystem to only what they want?

That's the fear many developers are having. Many believe Microsoft wants only Windows software be sold and installed from something like Windows Store, where Microsoft decides if their program meets or doesn't meet the requirements for certification and approval to be sold on there. Will Microsoft make Secure Boot a requirement on future computers by asking that be an option by default from OEM motherboard manufacturers? Who knows?

It is literally a lot of things to be worried about for desktop computing. And, the worry is justifiable. Many computer users are used to the freedom we have now-- install what you want and run what you want on your own Windows-based computers. Developers enjoy that freedom as well when they make and develop software. They can develop their own software and games, and sell them on their own website, online retailer, or brick-and-mortar store of choice. If Windows Store becomes the requirement for software distribution on future Windows operating systems, then it is definitely something any software developer should be worried about. Sure, it'll make software distribution easy, but if requiring only programs bought and sold there be the only way it can be installed on your computer is a general fear many have right now. That's the control that's being talked about. Microsoft looks as if it wants to control their own ecosystem with an iron grip, and make money out of it at the same time. That's what many believe right now is starting to happen with Windows Store and Windows 8 RT on tablets.

What happens if Microsoft moves this concept to Windows 9 and beyond? Would that mark the end of desktop computing? It may sound like a paranoid fear, but it has hints popping up here and there.

Microsoft is not winning the war against Google's, Amazon's and Apple's ecosystems of devices and software and media tie-ins. It hasn't established a large enough foothold outside of their Xbox 360 console and their operating systems and productivity software like Office and Windows. Microsoft would definitely want more than just that. If a company can control what you can install, run and buy on your computer or handheld device, then they can do whatever they want and tell you what you can and cannot do on it.

And, that is what one should worry about Microsoft after Windows 8.

Good for notch

Does that mean that Microsoft shares will plunge?

We can probably find some people that preached about doom back when DirectX came out. Microsoft going to limit how we access hardware, games will never be the same!

In fact I remember people complaining back then about the lack of hardware access transitioning from DOS. When in fact DirectX is probably the greatest thing that has ever happened to computer gaming.

pelo said:

They've already closed it on WinRT/Metro. You can't install applications any other way other than through the Metro store. Being "certified" means being able to distribute the software across Metro through both ARM and x86, whether tablet or PC (provided it works on either ISA).

Considering Microsoft doesn't make anything other than the OS on an OEM ARM/Metro laptop/tablet-thing, they're locking down what the user can do with it and what they can't. That's Win8 for you.

Microsoft makes the Xbox360 just like Apple makes the iPad and all the rest of their hardware. Microsoft doesn't make the PC nor do they make all of the winRT/Win8 products yet they're locking them down. The PC and Windows were open platforms, but not any longer.

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Guys, THIS is the post you need to be reading. It comes down to this:

1) on x86, you can install apps from whatever source you choose, including the MS store, sourceforge, etc.
2) on ARM/WinRT, Microsoft have decided that they will only allow applications which are sourced from the MS store. In other words, the vast majority of the tablet/phone market that runs ARM will only be able to get software through the MS store. This is the point Notch is objecting to.

octoberasian said:

Watch, if Windows 9 forces developers to distribute their software and games through the Windows Store as a requirement before it can install and run on your computer then the computer freedom we've had for decades is over...

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I don't think Microsoft would do something that stupid. That would break a hell of a lot of backwards compatibility, and would render Windows more restrictive than even a mobile OS. It's one thing for them to do that to Windows RT, but to the regular desktop version? I'm pretty sure Apple still holds the patent for the kind of Kool-Aid potent enough to convince anyone other than the Zune tattoo guy to go for that.

I've long thought the only way a "year of the Linux desktop" scenario might occur is if Microsoft either completely gives up or fucks up. If Microsoft locks Windows down the way you described... geez...

Mohonri said:

Guys, THIS is the post you need to be reading. It comes down to this:

1) on x86, you can install apps from whatever source you choose, including the MS store, sourceforge, etc.
2) on ARM/WinRT, Microsoft have decided that they will only allow applications which are sourced from the MS store. In other words, the vast majority of the tablet/phone market that runs ARM will only be able to get software through the MS store. This is the point Notch is objecting to.

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But he has a version of Minecraft available in iTunes ... a closed Apple store is okay but a closed Microsoft store is not ... that doesn't make sense ...

tablets are going to be somewhat more closed since they are physically closed to begin with ... they don't have lots of ports or internal access points ... they are memory constrained and very dependent on the cloud ... App stores in the tablet space are very successful with consumers (whether the platform is Android, Apple, or presumably MS as well)

MS is unlikely to completely close the PC because of their enterprise customers ... who would object greatly to that ... ARM hasn't been truly open yet ... although the technically savvy can do things with Android like change out ROMs and Root programming ... most applications still come from one of the many App stores ... and most consumers use Android devices in the same closed manner they would use an Apple device ... why is this wrong for MS and not for the other two

kbrickley said:

But he has a version of Minecraft available in iTunes ... a closed Apple store is okay but a closed Microsoft store is not ... that doesn't make sense ...

tablets are going to be somewhat more closed since they are physically closed to begin with ... they don't have lots of ports or internal access points ... they are memory constrained and very dependent on the cloud ... App stores in the tablet space are very successful with consumers (whether the platform is Android, Apple, or presumably MS as well)

MS is unlikely to completely close the PC because of their enterprise customers ... who would object greatly to that ... ARM hasn't been truly open yet ... although the technically savvy can do things with Android like change out ROMs and Root programming ... most applications still come from one of the many App stores ... and most consumers use Android devices in the same closed manner they would use an Apple device ... why is this wrong for MS and not for the other two

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I don't pretend to entirely understand Notch's train of thought, but I believe it's the fact that MS is open for the product on one architecture but closed on the other. I.e. tablets running x86 are open, but tablets running ARM are not.

Haters gonna hate Notch isn't saying anything about ARM and the Microsoft store specifically al he said was windows 8 and people are trying to talk him up to make him less crazy considering how much he's already published not only with Microsoft certification but on closed systems.

Unknown-One said:

Not really sure what he's on about here. The certification he's opting out of here is for desktop applications, and simply certifies that the application follows some general best-practices guidelines that he should be doing anyway...

Rafael Rivera went ahead and tried running Minecraft through the certification process and found that it already passes for the most part. There were a few warnings that could be pretty easily cleared up. You can see his report here:
http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/

For whatever reason Minecraft doesn't have an application manifest (so Windows has no idea what permissions it actually needs), and is messing some compiler flags like DEP and ASLR (which are pretty important security features).

So is Notch opting out of... programming his game better? lol

Click to expand...

Minecraft is programmed in Java. Any "compiler flags" such as DEP and ASLR would have to be the function of whatever Java Virtual Machine happens to be installed on your computer rather than a function of Minecraft itself.

MrGuvernment said:

So again, i still don't see it, but what is MS forcing you to do?

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It's the Store. It is a very anti user, anti developer scheme due to the ToS (you own nothing, they can delete your data and applications for "any reason or no reason" etc. etc.).

You can see MS putting more and more focus on shuffling people into pushing developers into it, like they did with gaming and the Xbox. They've already tried things like limiting all but the premium versions of SDKs to only make Metro applications. It might not seem so bad now, but look to the future, and this needs to end now, and Microsoft need to be told they are screwing stuff up. The less people that buy Windows 8 the better.

kbrickley said:

tablets are going to be somewhat more closed since they are physically closed to begin with ... they don't have lots of ports or internal access points ... they are memory constrained and very dependent on the cloud ... App stores in the tablet space are very successful with consumers (whether the platform is Android, Apple, or presumably MS as well)

MS is unlikely to completely close the PC because of their enterprise customers ... who would object greatly to that ... ARM hasn't been truly open yet ... although the technically savvy can do things with Android like change out ROMs and Root programming ... most applications still come from one of the many App stores ... and most consumers use Android devices in the same closed manner they would use an Apple device ... why is this wrong for MS and not for the other two

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Sorry to nitpick with a sledgehammer, but this is utter nonsense. You really don't understand the platform. At all.

When do programmers NOT have to work within constraints of hardware? And app stores are successful because users aren't given a choice.

App stores are central locations for obtaining software. The respective owners have the benefit of direct control over availability and distribution of the software to end-users. There is a small amount of quality control and a very large amount of visibility for popular, money-making apps.

The platorms are also only as closed as the creators make it. Root an iOS or Android device and whaddya know? You have full access to the operating system, just like you should, and do on any desktop OS. You can then install or remove whatever you wish. Plugging a logitech USB receiver into a dongle attached to my android phone and watching a mouse cursor appear, then opening a terminal console, with a wireless keyboard, to open an FTP connection for the first time was... nothing short of awesome.

This is the power and freedom end-users are denied for the sole purpose of controlling what they consume. Dumb down the content, dumb down the user base. It's nothing short of Orwellian. It's doubleplusungood.

achensherd said:

I don't think Microsoft would do something that stupid. That would break a hell of a lot of backwards compatibility, and would render Windows more restrictive than even a mobile OS. It's one thing for them to do that to Windows RT, but to the regular desktop version? I'm pretty sure Apple still holds the patent for the kind of Kool-Aid potent enough to convince anyone other than the Zune tattoo guy to go for that.

I've long thought the only way a "year of the Linux desktop" scenario might occur is if Microsoft either completely gives up or fucks up. If Microsoft locks Windows down the way you described... geez...

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That's why they don't completely remove the desktop this edition, they do it next edition or the edition after when people have bought Metro app versions of everything so when Windows 9/10 comes out and they fully close it off, people will be like "Well, I wasn't using the openness anyway, I'll just upgrade".

I dunno if that's their plan, but it is definitely one of my concerns given how hard they're pushing metro.

Selling Minecraft through the Windows Store (after re-writing it in C# or C++) might be beneficial for Mojang. I don't see why the guy wouldn't even crunch the numbers on it.

wonderfield said:

Selling Minecraft through the Windows Store (after re-writing it in C# or C++) might be beneficial for Mojang. I don't see why the guy wouldn't even crunch the numbers on it.

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Completely rewrite the program? Yeah, thats as simple as a couple of keystrokes.

wonderfield said:

Selling Minecraft through the Windows Store (after re-writing it in C# or C++) might be beneficial for Mojang. I don't see why the guy wouldn't even crunch the numbers on it.

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C# as a language is fine so long as it is Mono. .net is not as .net is proprietary and much of it specific to Windows. One wonders the point of using JIT compilation if not for cross-platform compatibility.

C++ is fine so long as the use of proprietary Windows-only libraries like MFC and DirectX is avoided. QT is far superior to anything Microsoft offers in the C++ realm anyways.