Small Solid Oxide Fuel Cell Reaches Record Efficiency

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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Believe it or not, the government is still in the business of finding cheap alternative energy. A small efficient solid oxide fuel cell system is the latest to be developed and can produce enough power to provide electricity for 50-100 homes on a community based location. The power producing fuel cells rely on methane, a cheap and plentiful resource, to operate.

"However, this research shows that smaller solid oxide fuel cells that generate between 1 and 100 kilowatts of power are a viable option for highly efficient, localized power generation."
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It will be gone soon, Can't let something like that get in the way of big oil. :rolleyes:

Neat idea at least.
 
mannyman said:
It will be gone soon, Can't let something like that get in the way of big oil. :rolleyes:

Neat idea at least.
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Sadly this is so true. There have been many , very successful sources to come out of research to replace fossil fuels but when your industry is flush with unimaginable amounts of cash like the Oil Industry is , you are fighting a Tsunami with a single sand bag.

I remember "Bloom" Boxes we're going to be a massive hit yet they've barely taken off and Bloom Boxes was given massive amounts of money for research (hundreds of millions) and years later , I've barely heard a peep about them in the news.

As long as Oil can be drilled and harvested , other resources just won't stand a chance. We've already hit the critical point at which our damage is beyond repair. The planet is beginning a new cycle that we will have zero control over and it will have been brought on at least in part by our lacking interest in solving the issue.
 
How many cheap alternatives to oil do we have? Just choose one and stick with it. I still like to see solar power get off the ground. Everyone knows that oil is too powerful. I still think that's one of the big reasons why we went to war in Iraq. If the oil companies have that kind of power over our government, we're doomed.

You wanna make the process less painful then give the government some lube.
 
Godmachine said:
Sadly this is so true. There have been many , very successful sources to come out of research to replace fossil fuels but when your industry is flush with unimaginable amounts of cash like the Oil Industry is , you are fighting a Tsunami with a single sand bag.

I remember "Bloom" Boxes we're going to be a massive hit yet they've barely taken off and Bloom Boxes was given massive amounts of money for research (hundreds of millions) and years later , I've barely heard a peep about them in the news.

As long as Oil can be drilled and harvested , other resources just won't stand a chance. We've already hit the critical point at which our damage is beyond repair. The planet is beginning a new cycle that we will have zero control over and it will have been brought on at least in part by our lacking interest in solving the issue.
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The question is how much does it cost. So far noone has been able to make a fuel cell that's anywhere near price competitive.

The problem with the "Bloom" box was cost. you could have bought one if you were willing to shell out a couple hundred grand......Not sure if they're still around.
 
Solar Panels are very inefficient and way too expensive right now. The problem with a lot of these "green/alternatives" is that you still have to put energy in to produce them(I believe that is the issue with Hydrogen, as it requires a lot of energy put in to get it).

That said, the oil companies making billions of dollars probably also have something to do with the extremely slow progression in alternative energy.
 
xIronCrossx said:
Solar Panels are very inefficient and way too expensive right now. The problem with a lot of these "green/alternatives" is that you still have to put energy in to produce them(I believe that is the issue with Hydrogen, as it requires a lot of energy put in to get it).

That said, the oil companies making billions of dollars probably also have something to do with the extremely slow progression in alternative energy.
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Once you burn non-renewables to create enough sources of green energy, then the green system becomes self-sustaining.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Once you burn non-renewables to create enough sources of green energy, then the green system becomes self-sustaining.
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Yeah but the oil companies will never let this happen until it is absolutely necessary.
 
wtiger said:
The problem with the "Bloom" box was cost. you could have bought one if you were willing to shell out a couple hundred grand......Not sure if they're still around.
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http://www.triplepundit.com/2012/05/bloom-energy-double-manufacturing-capacity-energy-servers/ :rolleyes:

After quadrupling the size of its Sunnyvale plant last year, Bloom Energy has now broken ground on a 210,000 sq ft. facility in Newark, Delaware that will eventually double its capacity once again. The plant will be located on the 272 acre former Chrysler assembly site, which is now part of the University of Delaware’s new Science, Technology and Advanced Research Campus. At the ground-breaking ceremony last week, CEO KR Sridhar, announced a number of new big-time customers including: Owens Corning, Urban Outfitters, Delmarva Power, and Washington Gas. AT&T, already Bloom’s biggest customer with 7.5 MW of capacity distributed over 11 locations, will be adding more for their East Coast operations.

Existing customers include Walmart with two stores in Southern California utilizing 400kW systems each generating 3.4 million kWh which reduce 1 million pounds of CO2 annually. And Apple’s enormous new 500,000 sq ft. data center in North Carolina will also be powered with 5MW Bloom Boxes powered with biogas as well as 20MW of solar.
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Lets see, 1 therm of natural gas is 29.3 kWh, these are 57% efficient so 16.7kWh per therm, a quick look at my PG&E bill shows 78cents per therm, so 4.67 cents per kWh?

WHOOYA! sign me up... wait how much do they cost :D
 
xIronCrossx said:
Yeah but the oil companies will never let this happen until it is absolutely necessary.
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Very true, but surely they see the writing on the wall as plainly as anyone else. When there's no oil left that we can economically obtain, their business model will cease to exist unless they've diversified into alternative sources.
 
xIronCrossx said:
Yeah but the oil companies will never let this happen until it is absolutely necessary.
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The oil companies ain't gonna do shit, there's no fricking grand conspiracy.

People refuse to pay up front for power (investment), most solar panels now do pay themselves off over the lifetime of the panels sometimes it takes 15+ years (unless you have dirt, pun intended, cheap electricity), technology does get critical market penetration, prices stay high. Its a matter of economics, and peoples mentality in their buying habits are what keep things where they are, not the oil companies.
 
sfsuphysics said:
The oil companies ain't gonna do shit, there's no fricking grand conspiracy.

People refuse to pay up front for power (investment), most solar panels now do pay themselves off over the lifetime of the panels sometimes it takes 15+ years (unless you have dirt, pun intended, cheap electricity), technology does get critical market penetration, prices stay high. Its a matter of economics, and peoples mentality in their buying habits are what keep things where they are, not the oil companies.
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+1

Hanlon's razor, Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
 
mannyman said:
It will be gone soon, Can't let something like that get in the way of big oil. :rolleyes:

Neat idea at least.
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There is a huge difference between the research I got it to work in the lab two or three times and wrote a paper/press release on it and the actual development needed to make a successful project. It is easy to get something that sounds promising and feasible, but actually realising it as a product is much more difficult. I highly doubt the conspiracy theory that big oil is what is killing these projects. More than likely, it is hard to justify the development expense either due to current solutions like gas being cheaper or the technology has flaws that are only found after the initial press release.
 
sfsuphysics said:
The oil companies ain't gonna do shit, there's no fricking grand conspiracy.

People refuse to pay up front for power (investment), most solar panels now do pay themselves off over the lifetime of the panels sometimes it takes 15+ years (unless you have dirt, pun intended, cheap electricity), technology does get critical market penetration, prices stay high. Its a matter of economics, and peoples mentality in their buying habits are what keep things where they are, not the oil companies.
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We'll likely be more reliant on electricity in the near future. Right now the cost of electricity at home won't break anyone's bank. To take 15+ years to pay for themselves is a big risk. Most people I know are planning to move in a much shorter time.

Now add electric cars, and you can bet that the cost of electricity will go up. Enough for people to look into solar power. At that point though, solar power will power your home and your vehicle. Given that you can harvest that much electricity from the sun.
 
Can't imagine living in an urban environment in the summer with multiple 600 degree Celsius heat sources.
 
Ashbringer said:
We'll likely be more reliant on electricity in the near future. Right now the cost of electricity at home won't break anyone's bank. To take 15+ years to pay for themselves is a big risk. Most people I know are planning to move in a much shorter time.

Now add electric cars, and you can bet that the cost of electricity will go up. Enough for people to look into solar power. At that point though, solar power will power your home and your vehicle. Given that you can harvest that much electricity from the sun.
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Also it depends upon the area, if you already live in a very high electrical usage area, high heats and low colds, you could be unlucky enough to have any sort of natural gas piped to you (propane is pretty damn expensive) leaving you with electrical heat, and/or if you need A/C for a considerable time during the year electrical cooling. Factor in the cost of electricity, and some places of California having a MONTHLY bill in the high 3 digits range is not uncommon.

While I'll agree people see it as a risk, but the reality is when has electricity ever gone down in price? If they move so what, consider that as a selling point of the house like any other renovation that people will do. Bottom line is the bigger picture is often ignored by most, which is why no one wants to buy solar (or any other alternative energy production), which is why it continues to remain high. You can easily see this by how many companies "lease" solar to you, essentially becoming the middleman as an electrical company
 
I think people don't realize the barriers to cars running alternatives is the convenience of liquid fuel.

Compressed gas, whether hydrogen or methane or whatever, has issues with bulky storage tanks sort of like an electric car battery and home fill times that rival battery charging. They can be filled at a station if you want to hang out for 20 minutes, though.

Both gas (methane, etc.) and electricity have inconvenience factors that liquid fuel doesn't have. Batteries could hypothetically one day became more convenient. But methane or whatever gas will have a fixed mechanical limit on the bulk of the tanks and safe fill rates.

The only other liquid fuel that has the convenience of oil based fuels, was ethanol. But in 2008, half the world had a crop shortfall because of bad whether and 'forced that be' successfully blamed ethanol for it, when it had nothing at all to do with it.
 
wtiger said:
The question is how much does it cost. So far noone has been able to make a fuel cell that's anywhere near price competitive.

The problem with the "Bloom" box was cost. you could have bought one if you were willing to shell out a couple hundred grand......Not sure if they're still around.
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Even nuclear power is technically more expensive per kw/h than coal/oil despite being far more efficient.

The problem isn't just cost, it's government inertia. The petroleum and coal industries are the most heavily subsidized energy sources by far.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Even nuclear power is technically more expensive per kw/h than coal/oil despite being far more efficient.

The problem isn't just cost, it's government inertia. The petroleum and coal industries are the most heavily subsidized energy sources by far.
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What? subsidizing coal? I thought the government has been trying to make things as hard as possible against coal and oil.
 
jpm100 said:
I think people don't realize the barriers to cars running alternatives is the convenience of liquid fuel.

Compressed gas, whether hydrogen or methane or whatever, has issues with bulky storage tanks sort of like an electric car battery and home fill times that rival battery charging. They can be filled at a station if you want to hang out for 20 minutes, though.

Both gas (methane, etc.) and electricity have inconvenience factors that liquid fuel doesn't have. Batteries could hypothetically one day became more convenient. But methane or whatever gas will have a fixed mechanical limit on the bulk of the tanks and safe fill rates.

The only other liquid fuel that has the convenience of oil based fuels, was ethanol. But in 2008, half the world had a crop shortfall because of bad whether and 'forced that be' successfully blamed ethanol for it, when it had nothing at all to do with it.
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Ammonia is widely used to power farm equipment, is much easier to store than hydrogen, and can be distributed through pipelines. Apparently it works with regular gas engines with a few modifications. The downside is lower energy density (a tank of ammonia would go half as far as a tank of gas), but I'd think cheap, stable prices would make up for it.

Most ammonia is currently generated from natural gas, but it can be generated sustainably using hydrogen from water and nitrogen from the air, preferably using a clean nuclear/solar/wind/hydro power source. It can also be recovered from sewage and industrial waste water.
 
xIronCrossx said:
Yeah but the oil companies will never let this happen until it is absolutely necessary.
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SkribbelKat said:
Very true, but surely they see the writing on the wall as plainly as anyone else. When there's no oil left that we can economically obtain, their business model will cease to exist unless they've diversified into alternative sources.
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Slow down there for a moment. I used to work for Big Oil. And as far as I saw, there's no vast conspiracy to prevent other technologies to market.

Is the world running out of oil? It depends on how you define it. The supply of oil follows the laws of supply and demand, just like anything else. Is the world running out of oil that could be supplied at $60/barrel? Yes. At $90/barrel? Also yes, but at a much slower rate. At $150/barrel? No. As easy/cheap oil supplies decrease (and it will be a gradual process, happening gradually over decades), prices will go up. This will mean that previously too-expensive-to-recover oil will now be economic to produce, and prices will stabilize at a higher level. This also means that some non-oil-related energy sources will become more economic.

DeathFromBelow said:
Even nuclear power is technically more expensive per kw/h than coal/oil despite being far more efficient.

The problem isn't just cost, it's government inertia. The petroleum and coal industries are the most heavily subsidized energy sources by far.
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While I agree that government is the single biggest factor slowing the use of nuclear power (and making it far more expensive), you're being a bit misleading by claiming that fossil fuels are subsidized more than alternatives. 2008 was the last year in which the total dollar figures were higher for fossil fuels. Now the subsidies (in terms of raw dollars) are overwhelmingly on the renewables side, a big chunk of which goes to refineries for ethanol credits (said ethanol being used only because we're forced to).

And the whole subsidy argument falls completely apart when you consider the subsidy per kWh produced. On that chart, coal, oil/gas, and nuclear don't even register on the scale.
 
Smells like DailyTech in here...

These "breakthroughs" occur everyday and are almost always overcome by silly things like cost.
 
NoNRG said:
http://www.triplepundit.com/2012/05/bloom-energy-double-manufacturing-capacity-energy-servers/ :rolleyes:
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Silly guy. Do you actually think Bloom is profitable? They are going to end up as another Solyndra. There cost was and probably still is 10x competitive technology. They are still around because suckers have donated over half a billion dollars in financing to them. These ludicrous costs are being embedded in the products you buy from the companies that have donated to them.

The green cult would have a lot fewer members if any of them understood business.
 
Cheap and Government should never be used in the same paragraph. For all of those who still believe that "big oil" get all of the subsidies, do your own research and not rely on Liberal media spin. The government with their taxes make 10-15 times more money per gallon of gas than do the oil companies. Are they (big oil) rich on only making 6.4 cents per gallon, you bet! They sell a lot of gasoline. DO NOT believe the media for anything. If you are going to use the media, use several opposing sources. There is always 2 sides to every story.
 
cappyboats said:
Cheap and Government should never be used in the same paragraph. For all of those who still believe that "big oil" get all of the subsidies, do your own research and not rely on Liberal media spin. The government with their taxes make 10-15 times more money per gallon of gas than do the oil companies. Are they (big oil) rich on only making 6.4 cents per gallon, you bet! They sell a lot of gasoline. DO NOT believe the media for anything. If you are going to use the media, use several opposing sources. There is always 2 sides to every story.
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And where do you get your information? Because my information states that for each gallon of gas, the oil companies see about 40% profit with the current prices.
 
Mohonri said:
Slow down there for a moment. I used to work for Big Oil. And as far as I saw, there's no vast conspiracy to prevent other technologies to market.

Is the world running out of oil? It depends on how you define it. The supply of oil follows the laws of supply and demand, just like anything else. Is the world running out of oil that could be supplied at $60/barrel? Yes. At $90/barrel? Also yes, but at a much slower rate. At $150/barrel? No. As easy/cheap oil supplies decrease (and it will be a gradual process, happening gradually over decades), prices will go up. This will mean that previously too-expensive-to-recover oil will now be economic to produce, and prices will stabilize at a higher level. This also means that some non-oil-related energy sources will become more economic.
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I said, "Yes, that's true," so I didn't come off as dismissive, not because I think there's a conspiracy of some sort out there. There are too many widely varied national and corporate interests involved for a single underlying conspiracy to pervade the entire industry. I also didn't say we were running out, but that there would be a time when there's "no oil left that we can economically obtain," which is supportive of your thoughts.
 
ballistic90 said:
And where do you get your information? Because my information states that for each gallon of gas, the oil companies see about 40% profit with the current prices.
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Can you provide a reference for that? The oil companies have a 7-9% profit margin, generally. That's a far cry from the 40% you cite. Another thing to consider, however: gas taxes don't change with gas prices. You're always paying the 18.4 cent/gallon federal gas tax, whether gas is $5/gallon or $0.87/gallon. You're always paying the (in the US, average) $0.31/gallon in state gas taxes. The government gets its $0.50 gas tax no matter what the price of oil is.
 
mannyman said:
It will be gone soon, Can't let something like that get in the way of big oil. :rolleyes:

Neat idea at least.
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What does big oil have to do with electricity for homes?

Big coal is a totally separate entity. My coal plant right here in Texas uses coal with is very plentiful, uses carbon sequestration and "clean coal" practices (washed cat so little pollution), and produces about 900 megawatts of power, which is enough to power over half a million homes.

So its not that this wouldn't work, but until they can at least power thousands of homes with it, efficiency of scale will keep us with hydro/nuclear/coal plants which power in the hundreds of thousands of homes.
 
Ashbringer said:
How many cheap alternatives to oil do we have? Just choose one and stick with it. I still like to see solar power get off the ground.
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None, and that's why we aren't just "sticking with it".

Alternative fuels aren't cost effective right now EVEN with the huge subsidies they get that come out of your wallet in the form of taxes every year, as well as tax incentives for energy companies to invest and produce them.

I pay .9cents a KWH and that's expensive enough, and now I can go to powertochoose.org and look for electricity providers that use a certain percentage of renewable power. But that comes at a price, and the market usually dictates that most consumers stick with the more affordable option, especially in this economy where the girlfriend or wife may now be unemployed with only one breadwinner for the family.

You can even shop for pure solar and wind power, but you will pay through the nose for it even though your neighbors are already subsidizing it heavily for you as well whether they are using it or not.
 
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