Confirmed hardware in the newly released ODAC

So, this is what I have figured out:

Digital receiver is going to be Tenor TE7022L
DAC is going to be Sabre ES9023.

Both of these are entry-level components.

Epiphany Acoustics said:

http://epiphany-acoustics.co.uk/our-products/e-dac-24bit-miniature-usb-dac/
Price: £99.99

The E-DAC is a stand alone USB digital-to-analogue converter which comes in a small form factor aluminium enclosure with custom front and rear panels. Input and power is supplied via the USB input on the rear of the unit. The line level analogue output is via a 3.5mm jack. The E-DAC will take your computer audio to the next level and when coupled with the EHP-O2 provides an audiophile experience far beyond their price level.

This high end DAC is based on the TE7022L UAC1 engine ES9023 24 bit DAC chip. It supports 16bit and 24bit at sample rates of 44.1kHz, 44kHz and 96kHz. The on-board filtered power supply ensures that noise is practically non-existent.

The initial stock of E-DAC modules will be limited so it is imperative that you place a pre order to guarantee your DAC in good time. The current estimated delivery date is the end of May/early June.

E-DAC Pre Order
£60

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NwAvGuy on his blog said:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/03/odac-update.html
SO HOW QUIET IS IT? Using the industry standard A-weighted dynamic range test with a –60 dBFS signal, the current ODAC prototype has an impressive 112 dB of dynamic range. How good is that? My $1600 Benchmark DAC1 Pre, on the exact same test referenced to the same 2 volts, is slightly worse at 111 dB. CD quality audio, in comparison, has only 96 dB of dynamic range. I should note if you have an application where you can use the DAC1’s full 7+ volts of output, it can manage 116 dB of dynamic range referenced to it’s maximum output. So you do get something for your extra $1500.

ENOB: ENOB stands for Effective Number of Bits and is another measure of a DAC’s performance. No 24 (or 32) bit audio DAC can achieve true 24 bit performance, In fact, 20 ENOB is generally considered the “Holy Grail” of real world DAC performance. The ODAC is just under 19 ENOB and the Benchmark, even referenced to its full 7+ volt maximum output, is 19.3 ENOB. The FiiO E10, even in 24 bit mode, is only 16.2 ENOB.

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ESSTech Product Page said:

http://www.esstech.com/index.php?p=products_DAC
The SABRETM DAC with integrated ground-centered 2Vrms driver operates from a single 3.3V power supply to deliver pop-free audio with 112dB of dynamic range, the highest performance of its class. With bill of materials reduced to just a few passive components externally, audiophile sound and quality are now accessible and affordable to any consumer audio products.

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Now, think about this:

X-Fi Elite Pro uses the CS4398 which can do 120 dB (but it gets 113 dB in real world)
X-Fi Titanium HD uses PCM1794 which can do 127 dB (but it gets 117 dB in real world)
Xonar Essence STX uses PCM1792A which can do 127 dB (but it gets 118 dB in real world)

The ODAC uses Sabre ES9023 and gets the ideal 112 dB in spec sheets AND the real world. I can't wait for the ODA to come out.

Interesting. I'd love to do a DBX test with a bunch of sound card and DAC combos.

Yes, I don't expect the ODA until mid-summer at the earliest, however.

Cheers,

Very interesting. Not bad for the price and I'd like to read how he got it so dead on in real world tests since the actual results of specs vary from listed specs so often on DAC's.

NwAvGuy always stresses that it's not so much the parts but the execution that determines the quality of the resulting component. I think he got such good specs for the ODAC the old fashioned way: he earned it with meticulous testing and repeated prototypes.

Eman D. Rahym said:

NwAvGuy always stresses that it's not so much the parts but the execution that determines the quality of the resulting component. I think he got such good specs for the ODAC the old fashioned way: he earned it with meticulous testing and repeated prototypes.

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I think its safe to air on the side of caution and see how it performs in the hands of users before we go praising the "overlord". Things always look great on paper but real world performance is where balls are pinned to the wall.

Eman D. Rahym said:

NwAvGuy always stresses that it's not so much the parts but the execution that determines the quality of the resulting component. I think he got such good specs for the ODAC the old fashioned way: he earned it with meticulous testing and repeated prototypes.

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Godmachine said:

I think its safe to air on the side of caution and see how it performs in the hands of users before we go praising the "overlord". Things always look great on paper but real world performance is where balls are pinned to the wall.

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I agree with both of you. What NwAvGuy does is an art in itself. He has a specific purpose: create the highest quality of sound with the most cost-effective and simple design. By high quality he has the ultimate goal: transparent to measurements as well as the ears of trained listeners. In that sense I agree with Eman because I believe in what he does and I have faith in his skills.

But I also agree with Godmachine because I am definitely waiting to see how it measures and how it fares in blind tests, before I go buy one myself. Ultimately, if it fails in its stated goal of transparent sound (which I highly doubt), I'll buy something else.

It's gonna be [strike=]O-some[/s] awesome.

LOL! Hard work and publishing your efforts on a blog for the world to see now makes you an "overlord?" Then again, considering what the world of "high end audio" has become these days, you may be right.

Nah, I think NwAvGuy is just a regular guy who trained in electronics and paid attention during his schooling. While I'd never call him an overlord, I will go on record as saying he is a breath of fresh air and a welcome counterpoint to the increasingly silly mysticism promulgated by so many of the "golden ears" of the audiophile press and their too credulous adherents. I should know, I was one of the true believers myself for quite a while.

By a strange coincidence, today NwAvGuy published the specs for his ODAC. They look pretty good to me. They not only look good, they look good enough to be "transparent." No audio component is perfect, but if the designer can reduce the imperfections to below the threshold of audibility then you can say the component is transparent, that is you cannot hear it in the signal chain.

NwAvGuy says his dac sounds transparent. His published specs back up his claim. The ODAC has inaudible deviation from flat response, inaudible noise, inaudible distortion and inaudible jitter. If you think electronics is a science, what more do you need to know?

I predict that the ODAC will be reviewed by the golden ears of the audiophile press who will do so in sighted tests and who will grudgingly damn it with faint praise. They will say it sounds good "for a cheap dac," but that it lacks "resolution" or has "flattened images in the sound stage" or "traces of residual grain" or other nebulous, meaningless "defects," all when compared to much more pricey gear they have on hand. I further predict that none of the golden ears will take up NwAvGuy on his standing challenge to compare the ODAC with another dac in a controlled, double-blind test.

XacTactX, I think you're going to wait a long time to see anyone do blind testing on the ODAC. Consumers like us lack the ability to do it and the OEMs and press lack any interest in doing it. They've nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. Why would they want to disrupt their cozy business model? Still, I'm guessing you could do a lot worse than an ODAC, and would have to spend a lot more to exceed it. And to what end? Inaudible is just that. You might get better specs, but not more transparent sound.

I think NwAvGuy is anything but regular , he's a bit egotistical and abrasive (at least this is how he comes off when he is discussing his opinions) but he's also quite right. A lot of "snake oil" audio has taken over the rational audio world and I am personally looking forward to the ODAC getting into the hands of users and if all goes well my grubby hands as well.

Don't think I have anything against the guy personally , they call him "Voldermort" and the "Overlord" on Head-Fi by the way , which is why I said that

Ah. I was wondering how what I said could be construed as asserting NwAvGuy was an overlord. That explains it!

It's been a while since I hung out at head-fi. I could see how NwAvGuy could ruffle some feathers there.

I haven't seen any of his posts there, but on his blog I see him not so much as egotistical or abrasive but as an engineer. Or maybe all the engineers I've met are egotistical and abrasive? I think he'd be surprised that people perceived him that way. What can you do? Engineers, especially good ones like NwAvGuy, simply see the world differently than other folks do. Often they interact poorly with others. Still, I'm willing to put up with that in order to enjoy the stuff they can come up with!

I give the guy credit on having a bit of an attitude because:

1) He seems to be able to back his shit up. He will crit you with a massive wall of real measurements, and really what more can you want in terms of proof?

2) There is just so much BS in the audio worlds. Until I found the O2 headphone amps pissed me off. Knowing what I know about electronics, there was just no way that it should cost so damn much to get a good amp (particularly since good power amps can be done for less and they are harder to do). It really pisses you off after dealing with it. Only so many times you can take someone telling you that cables make a massive difference before you blow a gasket.

It doesn't surprise me that he has a bit of a chip on his shoulder after dealing with shit like that. I'd also venture to say he's an above average engineer. His talks on implementation vs parts remind me of a guy from Analogue Devices who has come and given talks for our undergrads (I work for an engineering department at a university) who is one of the godfathers of circuit design and he's all about smart implementation, how to save money by optimizing components, and so on.

Egotistical and abrasive is putting it lightly Still irks me how he almost constantly belittles amb every chance he gets. That being said I look forward to giving the odac a try, it should be an interesting module.

I'm definitely getting an ODA with the ODAC installed. In my opinion you could spend thousands on tube amps and never really stop pursuing all kinds of distorted sounds. Or, you could get the ODA/ODAC+O2 and call it a day, spending money instead of other things (like getting more headphones).

After the Lyr, I'm afraid I can't stomach trying out more tube amps. Honestly, the audible background, heat, and potential for the Lyr to destroy my HD-800's (I'm really starting to fear the thumps from the relays) has turned me off of it. I'm fully planning to get rid of it for the ODA. There's nothing really wrong with the Lyr, I just don't think that's the kind of direction for me.

NwAvGuy's "mission" is something I can agree with. You can't really blame the vultures and sponsors over at Head-Fi going after him. They are trying to defend their livelihood, which is in a similar space as jewelry as far as I'm concerned, selling overpriced bling.

thehybridfrog said:

In my opinion you could spend thousands on tube amps and never really stop pursuing all kinds of distorted sounds.

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Woah, isn't that a bit harsh? BHSE is a tube amp and it's not exactly distorted. Stereotyping an entire category of amps is stretching things a bit

Neb said:

Egotistical and abrasive is putting it lightly Still irks me how he almost constantly belittles amb every chance he gets. That being said I look forward to giving the odac a try, it should be an interesting module.

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Sorry for being clueless, but what does amb stand for?

thehybridfrog said:

I'm definitely getting an ODA with the ODAC installed. In my opinion you could spend thousands on tube amps and never really stop pursuing all kinds of distorted sounds. Or, you could get the ODA/ODAC+O2 and call it a day, spending money instead of other things (like getting more headphones).

After the Lyr, I'm afraid I can't stomach trying out more tube amps. Honestly, the audible background, heat, and potential for the Lyr to destroy my HD-800's (I'm really starting to fear the thumps from the relays) has turned me off of it. I'm fully planning to get rid of it for the ODA. There's nothing really wrong with the Lyr, I just don't think that's the kind of direction for me.

NwAvGuy's "mission" is something I can agree with. You can't really blame the vultures and sponsors over at Head-Fi going after him. They are trying to defend their livelihood, which is in a similar space as jewelry as far as I'm concerned, selling overpriced bling.

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I was always a bit nervous using hybrid designs , I actually own and use a Schiit Valhalla and love it with my HD650's. No problems to speak off , because its fully a tube design there is no issue with having to throw relays in it. Tubes naturally take time to heat up and cool down so no real big spikes to deal with.

I agree with NwAvGuy's "mission" I just feel he singles out the entire market more often than not when its mostly a few key players that are taking advantage of people. I really doubt every audio engineer working for each company is trying to cram as much junk in front of the raw signal output as possible to jack up the cost. I think certain engineers as with everything that's designed , have a different approach to the same problem.

Its always a bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket so that's why I remain neutral involving NwAvGuy's opinions for the most part.

I think the worst part of the audio market is the cabling industry , that's the biggest sham job I can think of. People spending $500-$600 for "fat pipe" upgrades is just sad and entirely misleading. I think when NwAvGuy's speaks on that topic he manages to come forward the strongest and I respect him for that. But I do not respect his general attitude towards manufacturers , it reeks of a serious chip on his "shoulder". There are much more diplomatic ways to go about things but as it was mentioned , "good" engineers are not known for having incredible social skills.

Still I'm really interested in the ODAC. I hope its everything he's saying it is. If it can live up to the hype than manufacturers would have to start taking NwAvGuy seriously and that might shake up things even further. Competition is always a good thing in my mind when it comes to the retail market.

Amb the person is Ti Kan, his website AMB Labs has many DIY audio projects that he has designed in conjunction with DIY audio community feedback. On the computer side of things he was the original founder of the CDDB, which is now known as Gracenote.

Real quick summary of what happened between AMB and Nwavguy: Nwavguy reviews the Mini3, notes some issues with the measurements he made of the amp, goes to amb's support forum, communications break down primarily due to Nwavguy's "abrasiveness" and Nwavguy gets banned for it. Nwavguy claims it is censorship and revises his review to state as such, while providing no link to the thread for reference.

I find it very unfortunate that such a good supporter of the DIY audio community is listed right next to a company such as Audio-GD. Same goes for Twisted Pear. These are DIY groups/vendors/people that support the DIY community and are being lumped in and attacked the same way that full commercial companies are.

Hopefully that provides some background info and I apologize for some of the ranting I just did

Oh wow ..that was pretty lame of him

Neb said:

Amb the person is Ti Kan, his website AMB Labs has many DIY audio projects that he has designed in conjunction with DIY audio community feedback. On the computer side of things he was the original founder of the CDDB, which is now known as Gracenote.

Real quick summary of what happened between AMB and Nwavguy: Nwavguy reviews the Mini3, notes some issues with the measurements he made of the amp, goes to amb's support forum, communications break down primarily due to Nwavguy's "abrasiveness" and Nwavguy gets banned for it. Nwavguy claims it is censorship and revises his review to state as such, while providing no link to the thread for reference.

I find it very unfortunate that such a good supporter of the DIY audio community is listed right next to a company such as Audio-GD. Same goes for Twisted Pear. These are DIY groups/vendors/people that support the DIY community and are being lumped in and attacked the same way that full commercial companies are.

Hopefully that provides some background info and I apologize for some of the ranting I just did

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Seriously? NwAvGuy got banned from that forum because of that thread? Sheesh. It looks to me like that thread started before NwAvGuy got there, mostly to bash him and his review of that amp. Now I'll concede that a diplomat NwAvGuy is not, but neither do I see anywhere but one place in that thread where anyone showed he was wrong, and when they did he admitted it and even updated his review to reflect that. He didn't act like it was an insult or get snippy about it.

Frankly, I think amb and his posse by far got the worst of the exchange and missed a chance to learn something. Oddly enough, toward the end things seemed to have simmered down and become civil, but I guess behind the scenes tempers were still frayed and so the thread was locked and NwAvGuy banned. I can understand why NwAvGuy would have a chip on his shoulder toward amb after all that.

On the other hand, at least now I know where the inspiration for the O2 arose!

I think what pissed them off is that he comes in to their forum and pretty much lays it all out. Not really the kind thing to do for the owners and of course that didn't sit well (how would you feel if someone came in and basically embarrassed you outright on your own forum?) and this is why NwAvGuy often catches flak for how he reacts. If you run a business with a "I don't give a fuck what my competitors think and I'm going to essentially provide proof that there own claims are incorrect and therefore falsely advertised" then you simply can't avoid it. I think people would have more respect for him if he exercised more tact in his messages.

If I went to Apple's official forums and was able to conclusively rebuke a regarded feature on their own product , I'm pretty sure I would get flamed relentlessly and banned.

Most of what NwAvGuy preaches is that you can't trust your own ears to decide what is actually "good" or not. But in reality we do the exact opposite of this and I think that despite NwAvGuy's journey for dead neutral sound , he manages to make a solid case in his own defense but he also manages to provide evidence that despite everything he is saying , user subjective experiences are ..user subjective.

But there is one thing I strongly agree with him on , the entire "high end" cable industry that has blossomed up is probably the biggest bullshit industry that I can think of. The fact that some people spend thousands of dollars on cables and gladly so is much more of a concern (for now) than what AMP or DAC they prefer. But of course NwAvGuy can't make a special cable that proves his point and provides an income to him like the O2 and the ODAC . So the lesson to take away from his blog and the flame wars and all of it is really , everyone is biased. If you enjoy spending more money on an AMP or DAC then by all means , its your money. But know that there is a very strong chance that you are needlessly blowing it on something that you will not be able to hear the difference with in a blind test reliably.

So you're saying amb is just as totalitarian as Apple?

I'm not here to defend NwAvGuy. He can take care of himself. Perhaps a life lesson he needs to learn is that people are not as amenable to cut and dried solutions as electronics are. You can solve an equation or a circuit design, but you can't solve people. Managing and dealing with people is a completely different skill set.

Still, I think gadflies like NwAvGuy are something the audio industry sorely needs. I'd like to see a few more just like him, poking and prodding manufacturers and designers. They're getting far too complacent and lackadaisical these days.

+1 to the post ^^^ everything in the world would be better if people looked at it with a rational perspective, and most importantly, did not get emotionally invested in a product or an idea (especially an illogical one). At its core, that's what NwAvGuy is doing, he's challenging the current status quo, and injecting facts into the debate.

thehybridfrog said:

I'm definitely getting an ODA with the ODAC installed. In my opinion you could spend thousands on tube amps and never really stop pursuing all kinds of distorted sounds. Or, you could get the ODA/ODAC+O2 and call it a day, spending money instead of other things (like getting more headphones).

After the Lyr, I'm afraid I can't stomach trying out more tube amps. Honestly, the audible background, heat, and potential for the Lyr to destroy my HD-800's (I'm really starting to fear the thumps from the relays) has turned me off of it. I'm fully planning to get rid of it for the ODA. There's nothing really wrong with the Lyr, I just don't think that's the kind of direction for me.

NwAvGuy's "mission" is something I can agree with. You can't really blame the vultures and sponsors over at Head-Fi going after him. They are trying to defend their livelihood, which is in a similar space as jewelry as far as I'm concerned, selling overpriced bling.

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This exactly mirrors my experience with the Lyr! I've given up tube amps as well. However I think that Violectric makes pretty good SS amps, and think I'm going to try one of those as well as get an ODA.

I also feel the V has a terrible attitude toward manufacturers. The fact is, he HASN'T done many measurements on the products he criticizes most (Schiit, Burson, etc.) And every time he rails on them without providing objective analysis makes him look more like the people he despises, not to mention a hypocrite. Further, he goes on to assume that anything that doesn't list all their specs must be total snake oil (for competing products at the very least), which is why he selectively doesn't seem to criticize Lake People all that much. Just my 2c on the matter.

That said, his products are genius. I look forward to an ODA+C for my work setup. And cables are totally bullcarp. You could use a wire clothes hangar and people wouldn't be able to tell (actually done).

Cheers,

edit: Doubled my usual cheers.

Godmachine said:

If I went to Apple's official forums and was able to conclusively rebuke a regarded feature on their own product , I'm pretty sure I would get flamed relentlessly and banned.

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It's more as if you came to hardforum to discuss the Ratpad with Kyle, then started questioning Kyle's technical ability to design it at all. Certainly can't expect to continue a discussion after that.

I still think his insinuation that amb and Twisted Pear purely "design by ear" is skewing the facts terribly.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate his work but I think that he could definitely use some diplomacy.

Godmachine said:

But of course NwAvGuy can't make a special cable that proves his point and provides an income to him like the O2 and the ODAC .

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He claims to make no money from either product. I assume that if this is not so, the internets will figure it out soon enough.

HammerSandwich said:

He claims to make no money from either product. I assume that if this is not so, the internets will figure it out soon enough.

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I find this extremely hard to believe , I'm sorry. He needs to generate income like everyone else and considering the amount of press he's gotten (at least in the audiophile world) and the fact that he's gone out of his way constantly on different forums to prove his point with his own design tells me he isn't in it for the good of mankind. Even if he isn't making a lot of money or going out of his way to screw people over for money , I'm sure he's making some.

Money is almost always the motivating factor. And while he preaches his neutrality , he must take a cut somewhere down the line.

Benjus said:

The fact is, he HASN'T done many measurements on the products he criticizes most (Schiit, Burson, etc.) And every time he rails on them without providing objective analysis makes him look more like the people he despises, not to mention a hypocrite. Further, he goes on to assume that anything that doesn't list all their specs must be total snake oil (for competing products at the very least), which is why he selectively doesn't seem to criticize Lake People all that much. Just my 2c on the matter.

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Wow that's interesting . Here I'm thinking he actually tested these products before he stated his evidence.

That makes me lose some of the respect I had for him and his "let the test results speak for themselves" approach.

On the flip side, he really might be fanatical enough about proving he's right that he really might not be making money on the products. Someone is making money though, at the very least to compensate for the cash fronted for prototyping and parts costs. That being said most of the the prebuilt ODAC and O2 that I've seen are fairly priced.

Detailed and credible published measurements are missing with most “boutique” DACs being sold including those from Schiit Audio, Audio-GD, AMB, Twisted Pear, Burson, and NuForce. Where’s the credible evidence they got it right? A lot of these companies try to claim specs don’t matter, and they instead design by ear, but that method is seriously flawed (see: What We Hear).

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Out of all of those companies listed, he has only tested items from AMB and NuForce. Additionally, following that list of companies with "A lot of these companies try to claim specs don’t matter" is really misleading, especially when not all of them have stated that.

Godmachine said:

I find this extremely hard to believe , I'm sorry. He needs to generate income like everyone else and considering the amount of press he's gotten (at least in the audiophile world) and the fact that he's gone out of his way constantly on different forums to prove his point with his own design tells me he isn't in it for the good of mankind. Even if he isn't making a lot of money or going out of his way to screw people over for money , I'm sure he's making some.

Money is almost always the motivating factor. And while he preaches his neutrality , he must take a cut somewhere down the line.

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Actually, I did go out of my way to read the license on the design of the O2, and yeah, it's totally open source. He might get some kickback from the manufacturers, but it isn't any form of royalty, that's for sure. As for the ODAC, I don't know whether or not I will drink his koolaid on the "DAC chip supplier won't sell without investment" argument, but it is what it is and I don't have any evidence to contradict that.

The man has stated that he works full time outside of these designs, which to me screams of hobby. Just my 2c on this one.

Godmachine said:

Wow that's interesting . Here I'm thinking he actually tested these products before he stated his evidence.

That makes me lose some of the respect I had for him and his "let the test results speak for themselves" approach.

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I made that statement because if he had in fact done those measurements, and gotten the results he expected, they would have been posted on his blog. No way he would censor himself like that. Smells funny for sure. I once posted saying he was laying undue criticism on Schiit and as a pragmatist he owed it to himself and us to post objective analysis to backup his claims. He refused citing "intimate" knowledge of the design of said products and that they in fact used all sorts of snake oil. I'll see if I can dig the comment / response up.

To me that's just the same BS anyone would manufacture to deflect a question.

Cheers,

EDIT:
My comment

Thank you again NwAvGuy for a great article. I really love your technical sections which go into great detail about your methods and reasoning for the conclusions presented in the first section.

Something I would like to say, and forgive me if it is out of line, is that you seem to levy an unfair amount of criticism at Schiit audio. Given that the problem you briefly mention has been remedied, I find it unfair to disparage the company without having done a technical review of any of their products yourself or (as far as I can tell) anyone (who is reputable) else.

Given all your work, I sense you are a pragmatic individual, and as such someone who takes pride in their well thought out and rational conclusions. But it would appear to me that none of the accusations levied against this particular company are founded in any fact whatsoever, only subjective opinion based off of other peoples experiences.

I do not know whether you are right or wrong regarding the quality of their products, only that one should not judge them before any real technical analysis has been done. Your thoughts are of course always appreciated.

Cheers,

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and his response:

Anon, thanks for your comments. I think I've had enough involvement with Schiit Audio (including some that hasn't been published) to form at least a few reasonably solid conclusions about their gear and how they run their business. It's not a single incident, it's several. Their Lyr amplifiers have also damaged headphones. They spoke out publicly as being dead against the use of relays in their products then they release a new product full of relays.

Perhaps most of all, several of their products are based on designs (low/no feedback single-ended topologies) that are known to be inferior and produce relatively high amounts of distortion and have an undesirably high output impedance. That's not theory, or guesswork, it's fact. Any competent audio engineer can explain why Schiit's approach is a poor choice to drive headphones...

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The reason NwAvGuy bags on Burson is because of the awful discrete OpAmps they make. You can Google Douglas Self's OpAmp measurements to see for yourself. Relatively speaking, when you compare their discrete OpAmp to IC chips like the LM4562 (or other audio parts) it gets pwned. But this doesn't stop Burson from plastering its website with claims of higher-fidelity audio, and regular OpAmps being a limitation to sound quality, even though the opposite is true. And back when Douglas Self did these measurements (in 2009) Burson wanted $50 for two single OpAmps. You can get a dual OpAmp that will make the Burson look like a retarded stepchild for $3 (LM4562). The point NwAvGuy is making about Burson is that they're snake-oil merchants, they are trying to improve sound quality with expectation bias, and not good measurements.

It's the same thing with Schiit. If you go on Schiit's web site you will see that they like to throw around fancy terms that don't mean very much. When they're quoting the frequency response instead of telling you the frequency response inside the range of human hearing (up to 20 kHz) they tell you the response all the way up to 200 kHz, with no mention of the audible range. And Schiit uses the same snake-oil that Burson claims will supposedly give you hi-fi audio: discrete OpAmps.

Maybe he shouldn't be bagging on these products on every new article without running some tests on them, but the point he is making is that these people have fucked up priorities. They aren't concentrating on real sound quality, they're concentrating on perceived sound quality. Big difference.

XacTactX said:

The reason NwAvGuy bags on Burson is because of the awful discrete OpAmps they make. You can Google Douglas Self's OpAmp measurements to see for yourself. Relatively speaking, when you compare their discrete OpAmp to IC chips like the LM4562 (or other audio parts) it gets pwned. But this doesn't stop Burson from plastering its website with claims of higher-fidelity audio, and regular OpAmps being a limitation to sound quality, even though the opposite is true. And back when Douglas Self did these measurements (in 2009) Burson wanted $50 for two single OpAmps. You can get a dual OpAmp that will make the Burson look like a retarded stepchild for $3 (LM4562). The point NwAvGuy is making about Burson is that they're snake-oil merchants, they are trying to improve sound quality with expectation bias, and not good measurements.

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Again I don't want to come off as someone who is a "believer", far from it in fact. As for Burson, I'm glad somebody took the time to show their products are full of snake oil. Means I won't be buying anything from them. However that person wasn't NwAvGuy, and FWIW, I think he should link such evidence in his comments and not just his articles.

Cheers,

XacTactX said:

Maybe he shouldn't be bagging on these products on every new article without running some tests on them, but the point he is making is that these people have fucked up priorities. They aren't concentrating on real sound quality, they're concentrating on perceived sound quality. Big difference.

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My problem is the fact that he's listing Amb and Twisted Pear in there. Those two are DIYers that solicit feedback from the DIY community and don't prioritize designing by ear over designing by measurement. Yes, I'm pretty sure they don't have a dScope but that doesn't mean they're designing by ear (which is what he implies).

On the flip side I'm glad the's roasting Burson, but I think his argument would be better supported by measurements.

XacTactX said:

Maybe he shouldn't be bagging on these products on every new article without running some tests on them, but the point he is making is that these people have fucked up priorities. They aren't concentrating on real sound quality, they're concentrating on perceived sound quality. Big difference.

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Well to his credit, they should be running the tests, not him. If they really do a good job on design, they should test it as well, and should have those results. Now maybe they don't choose to publish them to the world because they would just confuse most people, but they should have them and be able to provide them as refutation.

Any time I've contacted the makers of one of the big name audio products I own, they've been able to provide me with whatever detailed specs I wanted. They don't generally publish them because most people don't know how to interpret them (some do though, Emotiva has all their AP results on their pages) but they have them and will give it to you if you ask. SVS was pleased to send me Linear-X measurements of various things for their speakers when I asked.

Plus some things you know are bad by their very design. In electronics, there are wrong ways to do things. I'm actually making a video on that subject soon for the undergrads here: Common mistakes in circuits, since the TAs have to go over it again and again with new classes.

Benjus said:

Actually, I did go out of my way to read the license on the design of the O2, and yeah, it's totally open source. He might get some kickback from the manufacturers, but it isn't any form of royalty, that's for sure. As for the ODAC, I don't know whether or not I will drink his koolaid on the "DAC chip supplier won't sell without investment" argument, but it is what it is and I don't have any evidence to contradict that.

The man has stated that he works full time outside of these designs, which to me screams of hobby. Just my 2c on this one.

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Interesting. Well however or for whatever reasons he decided to design an amp that was based around his own engineering and use it to refute the claims of "snake oil" salesmen , he still manages to make a buck so to me personally , that means "bias". He may claim he works full time outside of the DIY designs he's made but we don't know that for sure.

We're just expected to believe he did it for the good of the community , which I'm sorry to say .. is a very hard pill to swallow.

Benjus said:

I made that statement because if he had in fact done those measurements, and gotten the results he expected, they would have been posted on his blog. No way he would censor himself like that. Smells funny for sure. I once posted saying he was laying undue criticism on Schiit and as a pragmatist he owed it to himself and us to post objective analysis to backup his claims. He refused citing "intimate" knowledge of the design of said products and that they in fact used all sorts of snake oil. I'll see if I can dig the comment / response up.

To me that's just the same BS anyone would manufacture to deflect a question.

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This is probably the most revealing thing about his methodology , he tells everyone that "technical measurements don't lie" yet he refuses to test the equipment of the competition he often bags on. Again he sounds just as biased as those he continually attempts to refute. You can't write a huge blog entry on how we can't trust our ears and that what we hear is entirely subjective to the individual and that measurements don't lie ... yet refuse to test the very gear he uses as examples of "snake oil" salesmanship.

And why should those companies go out of there way to refute the claims of one individual? They don't run around forum to forum attacking his designs and claiming that he's a "snake oil" salesman. I think since he helped reveal this topic on an open platform , than he should back up what he claims first and foremost.

I thought all along that he had actually done tests on the gear he harps on , figuring that based on what he preached that blind test results and measurements where the only way to confirm differences that he would have knocked out claims that he is also biased to his own design. Instead it seems that while his goals are noble , they are not pure.

I respect him as an engineer , but I take what he says with a large grain of salt.

XacTactX said:

It's the same thing with Schiit. If you go on Schiit's web site you will see that they like to throw around fancy terms that don't mean very much. When they're quoting the frequency response instead of telling you the frequency response inside the range of human hearing (up to 20 kHz) they tell you the response all the way up to 200 kHz, with no mention of the audible range. And Schiit uses the same snake-oil that Burson claims will supposedly give you hi-fi audio: discrete OpAmps.

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Do they now? :

No integrated circuits or discrete op-amps here.

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From Schiit's own "About" link. So the reality is that Schiit made a poor design choice with the Asgard and it may have fried a few headphones (not hundreds , not thousands). Are manufacturers not allowed to make mistakes? Schiit also made good on what happened almost immediately with an offer to retro-fit any Asgard's that lacked the relay that would prevent the problem and that all Asgard's going forward would feature the relay.

As far as Schiit's frequency range I don't know enough on how they came up with that figure to comment on it. But I can say that they offer "fancy" statements like this throughout their products :

Now, if you’re an engineer, the preceding paragraph probably means something to you. For everyone else, let’s simplify it: Asgard will sound friggin tremendous on virtually any headphone you throw at it, from $39 cheapies to those $1400 monsters you’ve been wanting to try.

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Fancy words indeed. Schiit's entire "thing" is tongue-in-cheek , the name of the company is "Schiit" for god sakes.

XacTactX said:

Maybe he shouldn't be bagging on these products on every new article without running some tests on them, but the point he is making is that these people have fucked up priorities. They aren't concentrating on real sound quality, they're concentrating on perceived sound quality. Big difference.

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No he shouldn't , in fact it damages his own reputation and makes it harder to understand where he's coming from when he isn't even willing to respect/follow his own ideology. I would really like to fully believe what he's preaching because it would have saved me money now and probably later on but after reading his blog and responses , I don't see how you couldn't form an opinion that he also has his own bias going on.

Godmachine said:

This is probably the most revealing thing about his methodology , he tells everyone that "technical measurements don't lie" yet he refuses to test the equipment of the competition he often bags on. Again he sounds just as biased as those he continually attempts to refute. You can't write a huge blog entry on how we can't trust our ears and that what we hear is entirely subjective to the individual and that measurements don't lie ... yet refuse to test the very gear he uses as examples of "snake oil" salesmanship.

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Have any of the companies submitted gear to him for testing though? If not it really isn't reasonable to say "He should go and buy all their stuff just to test it." Doesn't make much sense. If these companies have offered him free gear to test and he's said no, then ok. However I've a feeling they haven't so it isn't really fair to say he should spend a ton of money on something he doesn't want (and not all that cheap either, the Lyr is like $450).

Also really, if you've taken basic EE courses there are things you know about designs that are good and bad. A no-feedback audio amp? Not a good thing, not a good design. This is something provable, both in circuit theory as well as in actual testing that there are real reasons that having no feedback is a poor design choice.

So someone needn't test that design to say it is a poor design.

Sycraft said:

So someone needn't test that design to say it is a poor design.

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Yet that's counter to his ideology. Measurements and blind tests ..not "saying" its a poor design based on individual engineering knowledge and personal opinion.

You can't speak from both sides of the fence and call everyone else biased. Doesn't work that way.

As far as if the company's he's challenged have offered him testing equipment who knows? Would you offer your own equipment if he acted the way he has towards them to you? From a business stand point that wouldn't make sense , if he manages to be correct and prove that your products are sub par to his dirt cheap DIY design than you risk losing quite a bit of business don't you? So from that point of view , of course they won't just "send him" gear to test. But he could also borrow or audition the gear he wants to challenge on his own without there approval and provided gear.

2 sides to every coin. At this point its too late to not have another long discussion over results that would ultimately end up in 2 entirely different groups of users. If he provided conclusive proof from the onset then it would be the bombshell that could damage a lot of big business in the audiophile world. As it stands now , there is too much bias going around.

Me personally , from this point on I'm going to focus on buying more headphones and less concerned with my setup. I'm happy were am I'm at , even if that means acknowledged and willful ignorance. Maybe the ODAC will change that but I'm not sure at this point. Guess we'll see when they release and I can grab one fully enclosed and ready to go.

Seriously I don't understand why he has you so worked up. Yes, the guy is abrasive. He's an engineer, ever met one of them? Social skills, not their big thing (I work in a department full of them). He also is good at what he does, and can back it up with facts, so what's the big issue?

Also calling a bad design bad is not counter to any philosophy I've seen. He's big thing seems to be that design trumps components so a good design is critical, and you then have to test it. That doesn't mean you can see a bad design and know it is bad. You can see why no feedback is a bad thing in a SPICE simulation if you want, download Pspice and set up a simulation and try negative feedback vs no feedback situations.

Basically you have to test good designs to make sure they work as intended, but you don't have to test bad designs to know they are bad, particularly if they fail at basic electronics theory.

Kinda like you don't need to go and stick your finger in a light socket to know it is a bad idea. The basic theory tells you it is bad, you don't need to personally test it to know that fact .

Godmachine said:

Yet that's counter to his ideology. Measurements and blind tests ..not "saying" its a poor design based on individual engineering knowledge and personal opinion.

You can't speak from both sides of the fence and call everyone else biased. Doesn't work that way.

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As I recall he actually stated at one point that theoretical "good" designs that should have yielded positive results netted him negative, or zero, results and only through experimentation did he find the way forward. I don't think it's too much to ask for him to measure the competition assuming that he can get his hands on one.

As far as Burson goes, I got my HA-160D knowing full well the nature of discrete op-amps but I had a deal so that I could get the HA-160D for the same price as a standard HA-160 amp so it would have been stupid not to.

After having had it a little while I like it quite a bit. I've fed it from my STX versus it's own DAC and I can't honestly say that I can tell a difference yet. Although admittedly none of the headphones I currently have in my possession are particularly illuminating in that regard so perhaps whenever my LCD-2s arrive I will be able to hear more.

Actually I'm not that "worked" up , just commenting

I enjoy heated discussions from time to time. And he's at the center of an interesting controversy so its hard to resist not commenting on it.