Eidos Montreal Admits Deus Ex Boss Error

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I guess the lesson here is you shouldn't outsource work (especially not boss battles) to other studios unless you want stuff like this to happen.

"We knew that it would be a weakness for the game, that we had to make a compromise to deliver it [on] two levels. First, the boss fights were forced, which is not the Deus Ex experience. Second, there is no mix [of] solutions to tackle the boss fights, which is not Deus Ex either. "We knew that before the release of the game, but there had to be some compromise. It [was] our decision."
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Outsourcing happens a lot in the game industry, more than most people think. Epic used to do it for all of their games back when they were a 50 person studio. The problem isn't outsourcing, it's making sure you outsource to good studios and the product you get back is good.
 
jiminator said:
fix it, fuckers. we would replay it and be happy.... :)
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You want them to go back and redevelop all of the the boss fights and release them for free? As nice as that would be, I think it would be a rather colossal undertaking for no real monetary return.
 
Derangel said:
You want them to go back and redevelop all of the the boss fights and release them for free? As nice as that would be, I think it would be a rather colossal undertaking for no real monetary return.
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"... no real monetary return"?? Well lets look at it this way... If they want us to buy their Next Game, then they should go back and REDEVELOP the Boss Fights in DE:HR. Because otherwise lots of us aren't going to be willing to Trust Them the Next Time Around! :mad:
 
Cannydog said:
"... no real monetary return"?? Well lets look at it this way... If they want us to buy their Next Game, then they should go back and REDEVELOP the Boss Fights in DE:HR. Because otherwise lots of us aren't going to be willing to Trust Them the Next Time Around! :mad:
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If the bosses are the reason you won't buy the next game then well.... Personally I really don't care that much. The bosses suck, big deal. The game is still one of the best games I have played in years. The MINUSCULE amount of people that annoyed by it really don't matter in the long run.
 
I could care less about the boss fights. If you dont like them throw some points into typhoon. one hit insta kill every time.
 
I find this amusing because when Rock Paper Shotgun did a review of Deus Ex: HR, before we ever knew the bosses were outsourced, they pretty much said (I'm paraphrasing here of course) that; "In time, after the issue dies down a bit, and a couple months pass by the launch, I have a feeling we'll find out why the Boss fights are just unlike the rest of the game."

Sure enough...that's exactly what has happened.
 
I just picked up the game and found the first boss fight incredibly frustrating. I'm trying to play a no-kill playthrough, yet I have to make sure I always have a few guns/grenades on me because I don't know when the boss fights will happen. It takes up precious inventory space.

Very lame. I'm tempted just to hunt down a cheat or console command so I can skip them.
 
Derangel, I like your view on a lot of things, but you're wrong here. If they have time to release DLC like The Missing Link, then they have time to fix those boss battles with a patch.
 
Fail said:
Derangel, I like your view on a lot of things, but you're wrong here. If they have time to release DLC like The Missing Link, then they have time to fix those boss battles with a patch.
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I never said anything about time. Of course they have time to do it, the question isn't about time it's about money. Is it really worth it for them to spend at least several thousand dollars redoing all the bosses and then release it for free? Even back in the "golden days" of gaming that wouldn't happen.
 
MacDad said:
I just picked up the game and found the first boss fight incredibly frustrating. I'm trying to play a no-kill playthrough, yet I have to make sure I always have a few guns/grenades on me because I don't know when the boss fights will happen. It takes up precious inventory space.

Very lame. I'm tempted just to hunt down a cheat or console command so I can skip them.
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Interesting trick: grenades stack one-cell-each in your inventory. A mine of the same type takes up 2 cells...but mines "stack" up to 3 deep. So in the same space you can only put two explosive grenades, you can fit 3 explosive mines.

That's handy to keep in mind for the boss fights. I played the game (non-violent) with pretty much a stack of 24 mines or so taking up a corner of the inventory no bigger than the average gun size.

With any decent combination of augs (cloak, speed, etc), that makes the boss fights pretty trivial. Just run around the room, tossing mines either behind you (if the boss is a chaser) or in corners to bait the boss into. You can even stack them. I think I made a stack of 8 or 9 mines in a pile, once, and when the boss walked over it - *bam* - one-shot kill, no problem.

Or, as noted, the Typhoon pack is also handy.

It's a shame the only option is "fight" for the bosses, but there ARE variations within that. No reason you need to be limited to just a gun fight.
 
When I played through the first Boss fight I wasn't quite sure what I was playing. I thought, what is this? It can't be a boss fight, but this is one of the Boss's no doubt, and the chain of confusion spread as I sat in disbelief that when he picked me up like a doll with one arm about to choke me to death or snap my neck instead of paying for my mistake of getting too close to a behemoth of cybernetic power I was simply thrown onto the ground, allowed to get back up, and then further allowed to retreat to cover. I then thought to myself, I would rather watch the boss's die in a cutscene than have to play through anymore of these, but alas it could not be, in order to finish the game I not only would have to put up with random crashes, but also Boss battles that felt like they were designed by interns who attended a 'gaming' school while having barely graduated at the bottom of their class and were 'hired' to the game studio through a temp agency called 'Epic Failz'.
 
I never had a major issue with the Boss fights aside from the fact that they seemed a bit too easy. The first boss was the most difficult in my opinion, and I liked the complexity of the final boss but was disappointed in how easy it was to defeat. Overall though, even though they seemed kind of weak, i don't think it tarnished the game that much. As Eidos said, the compromise for freedom around the rest of the game worked out pretty well(in my opinion).
 
Derangel said:
You want them to go back and redevelop all of the the boss fights and release them for free? As nice as that would be, I think it would be a rather colossal undertaking for no real monetary return.
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You see, back in the day people took pride in what they released, instead of just being money whores.

Disasters were made but patches fixed those, now we're in the age of :livewithit: and buy our new DLC a week later.
 
DarkStryke said:
You see, back in the day people took pride in what they released, instead of just being money whores.

Disasters were made but patches fixed those, now we're in the age of :livewithit: and buy our new DLC a week later.
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Uhh no sorry even "back in the day" this wouldn't be fixed by a patch.
 
Derangel said:
Uhh no sorry even "back in the day" this wouldn't be fixed by a patch.
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There is a company with standards that HAS fixed their shit, they are called CD Projekt and they have released an Enhanced edition of The Witcher which fixed not only all the bugs, but completely revamped the translation and added some new things here and there. They spent an inordinate amount of time on that, along with money they earned from sales on the title after release.

They did the SAME thing with The Witcher 2, giving it a version 2.0 recently in September.

You are wrong, no matter what you want to admit :)
 
BTW, CD Projekt has a philosophy of "DLC 4 Free"

That's a studio I can support. Let's also not forget to mention Valve.
 
Fail said:
There is a company with standards that HAS fixed their shit, they are called CD Projekt and they have released an Enhanced edition of The Witcher which fixed not only all the bugs, but completely revamped the translation and added some new things here and there. They spent an inordinate amount of time on that, along with money they earned from sales on the title after release.

They did the SAME thing with The Witcher 2, giving it a version 2.0 recently in September.

You are wrong, no matter what you want to admit :)
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One studio does not make it a common thing. As nice as it would be, it just doesn't happen and has no happen often enough to say I'm wrong.
 
Derangel said:
One studio does not make it a common thing. As nice as it would be, it just doesn't happen and has no happen often enough to say I'm wrong.
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Valve and CD Projekt, that's 2.

It is possible for studios to release updates, hell, even indie developers are capable of doing it. The guys who made Orcs Must Die! have released several patches and updates already and that game just came out LAST MONTH!

Studios have the capability to do it, they just choose NOT to, because even if their product isn't polished after release, they feel content releasing a few patches to fix the paid beta (which is the period just after launch day). Then it's on to the next game and finding what else they can program to screw us out of our money.

Studios used to interact with their fans and ask what the fans wanted, and included all kinds of Easter Eggs and inside jokes as fan service. These days they no longer do it, it's all about bean counting corporations and shareholder profits.

Before, companies wanted to make a dollar, but at the same time, they actually gave a shit about the product, before it went out the door, when it went out the door, and long after it went out the door.
 
Fail said:
Valve and CD Projekt, that's 2.

It is possible for studios to release updates, hell, even indie developers are capable of doing it. The guys who made Orcs Must Die! have released several patches and updates already and that game just came out LAST MONTH!

Studios have the capability to do it, they just choose NOT to, because even if their product isn't polished after release, they feel content releasing a few patches to fix the paid beta (which is the period just after launch day). Then it's on to the next game and finding what else they can program to screw us out of our money.

Studios used to interact with their fans and ask what the fans wanted, and included all kinds of Easter Eggs and inside jokes as fan service. These days they no longer do it, it's all about bean counting corporations and shareholder profits.

Before, companies wanted to make a dollar, but at the same time, they actually gave a shit about the product, before it went out the door, when it went out the door, and long after it went out the door.
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I'd argue that it is infinitely cheaper for Robot to develop and release new content than it is for Eidos Montreal. Same with RED Studio and Valve. They have smaller teams. Still even then it has always been incredibly rare to the point of calling it never for a company to go back and totally redesign a major part of their game and release it for free. Eidos Montreal has actually done quite a bit based on fan reaction. They originally planned to force players to use glowy objects, mission indicators, and so on but based on fan input they made it all optional. Those were easy simple and cheap, redoing every single boss fight? Not so much. SquareEnix answers to shareholders and that is where the kicker lies in this whole argument. The question they would ask is if spending several thousand to tens of thousands of dollars redoing the boss fights is going to bring in enough money to make it worth it or is it too much of a gamble?

CDP can look at that same situation and think "We're not a huge company, but if we do this it will get our name out even more and drive sales up even further." For small companies spending that kind of time and money is worth it because it gets their name out more. For SquareEnix? They've already proven their new studio can produce a good game and at this point they are more concerned with future projects. Remember Eidos Montreal is also working on Thief 4 so to redo the boss fights they would have to pull people off that or outsource the production, which caused this mess in the first place.
 
Derangel said:
SquareEnix answers to shareholders and that is where the kicker lies in this whole argument. The question they would ask is if spending several thousand to tens of thousands of dollars redoing the boss fights is going to bring in enough money to make it worth it or is it too much of a gamble?
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There already busy putting up alot of capital to fix Final Fantasy 14. But, we can at least be greatfull that they are trying to fix it and that they are not charging people who have continued to stick it out. So while I have no doubt that FF14 will go down as one of the worst games I have ever played I do they think they handeled it in one of the best ways possible. I still check it out from time to time since it doesn't cost anything and also doesn't have the "annoyances" that Free to Plays have.
 
Hard reset added content after the fact. Lots of companies did it for steam promotions, which was then free to you if you owned the game. Yeah, it would be good to see the boss fights redesigned. It is the only glaring flaw in an otherwise close to perfect game.
 
According to Game Dev Story, my game company always does perfect contract work.
 
jiminator said:
Hard reset added content after the fact. Lots of companies did it for steam promotions, which was then free to you if you owned the game. Yeah, it would be good to see the boss fights redesigned. It is the only glaring flaw in an otherwise close to perfect game.
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Right, and if you had a company that had pretty much a perfect game except for one glaring flaw, why wouldn't you exercise pride and ownership over the game enough to fix it?

Money isn't everything and it would only enhance Eidos reputation, which has been in the shitter lately since they haven't really released many new games in the recent past that have been good except Deus Ex: HR.

Spend a few dollars to enhance your reputation, send a message to gamers that you take your games seriously and you're willing to provide the best experience?

Worked for Valve and CD Projekt.
 
Fail said:
Right, and if you had a company that had pretty much a perfect game except for one glaring flaw, why wouldn't you exercise pride and ownership over the game enough to fix it?

Money isn't everything and it would only enhance Eidos reputation, which has been in the shitter lately since they haven't really released many new games in the recent past that have been good except Deus Ex: HR.

Spend a few dollars to enhance your reputation, send a message to gamers that you take your games seriously and you're willing to provide the best experience?

Worked for Valve and CD Projekt.
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Because they don't view it as worth the money? I love your idea and it would be great it they would, but the world doesn't work on wishes and hopes alone. Like it or not we're a capitalist society and everything runs on money. Valve and CDP do what they do solely because they believe it offers them the most profit, it's the same story here. I'm not saying I think they're making the right choice, but they believe it is for them. The game is out, it's done I'd rather have them focus on making Thief 4 a good game right now to be honest. The Thief series is in serious need of a revival and I want them to make something that can show off how good stealth games really can be, not the modern stealth crap we see in games.
 
Derangel said:
...show off how good stealth games really can be, not the modern stealth crap we see in games.
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ya, you will see how good steal games really can be... oops, except for the bosses, when your game becomes a FPS again...
 
jiminator said:
ya, you will see how good steal games really can be... oops, except for the bosses, when your game becomes a FPS again...
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I always did think that was a contradiction, but that has happened in other games, like Metal Gear Solid and Tenchu.
 
Fail said:
I always did think that was a contradiction, but that has happened in other games, like Metal Gear Solid and Tenchu.
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I'm not even sure why stealth games need bosses in the first place.
 
Fail said:
Then what story would you propose? Who are the main villains? Why does he have to be stealthy in the first place? :p
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I think the Assassin's Creed games do it the best. The bosses are simply presented as targets and you're not really getting into real boss fights with them (horrible end bosses aside). The "boss battles" are designed as assassinations and for the most part the game wants you to be stealthy.
 
Derangel said:
I think the Assassin's Creed games do it the best. The bosses are simply presented as targets and you're not really getting into real boss fights with them (horrible end bosses aside). The "boss battles" are designed as assassinations and for the most part the game wants you to be stealthy.
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Now I'm gonna play Assassin's Creed 2 this weekend.

Thanks a lot Derangel :p
 
westrock2000 said:
There already busy putting up alot of capital to fix Final Fantasy 14. But, we can at least be greatfull that they are trying to fix it and that they are not charging people who have continued to stick it out. So while I have no doubt that FF14 will go down as one of the worst games I have ever played I do they think they handeled it in one of the best ways possible. I still check it out from time to time since it doesn't cost anything and also doesn't have the "annoyances" that Free to Plays have.
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nothing can fix 14 they need to let it die
the whole thing was outsourced to some Chinese dev
Square doesnt have the talent it had even 5 years ago let alone 10
 
Elios said:
nothing can fix 14 they need to let it die
the whole thing was outsourced to some Chinese dev
Square doesnt have the talent it had even 5 years ago let alone 10
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SquareEnix has good teams, the problem is they don't seem to know how to use them to their full potential.
 
Derangel said:
SquareEnix has good teams, the problem is they don't seem to know how to use them to their full potential.
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no they dont.... almost all of there talent left years a go they are a empty shell of what they were

12 was meh 13 was crap 14 was a joke
11 was ok... and 10 was just good frankly the last GREAT game they made was 9 and i didnt like it that much really the last game they made i really liked was 4 and 5 which isnt saying much



wait i lie Parasite Eve was good too but they havent really made any thing that was on that level for years now
 
Am I the only one that plays games for the story?

I really don't see why this is being made into such a big deal. The game had a great, engaging storyline that lasted longer than a lot of recent games. Worth the money spent in my opinion.
 
PynkFloydd said:
Am I the only one that plays games for the story?

I really don't see why this is being made into such a big deal. The game had a great, engaging storyline that lasted longer than a lot of recent games. Worth the money spent in my opinion.
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i too liked Dues Ex wile it had some failing the bosses and crappy lighting for the most part it was a good game
could it of been better sure but it wasnt crap and i got my moneys worth out of it
 
Elios said:
no they dont.... almost all of there talent left years a go they are a empty shell of what they were

12 was meh 13 was crap 14 was a joke
11 was ok... and 10 was just good frankly the last GREAT game they made was 9 and i didnt like it that much really the last game they made i really liked was 4 and 5 which isnt saying much



wait i lie Parasite Eve was good too but they havent really made any thing that was on that level for years now
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12 had some interesting ideas, but would have been much better without Vaan and his girlfriend. Gameplay was still meh though. That team is actually pretty talented though, but they need to stick to SRPGs.

I like 13's gameplay. Yes it was linear as hell, but it was fun. The story was fairly meh, but it wasn't the worst I've seen.

I have no interest in the MMO games.

I liked a lot of 10's elements, but I think it could be served better with a remake that redoes the translation and alters a few story points and redesigns a few characters. The core gameplay was fine and most of the characters weren't bad and I really like the ending (X-2 never happened!).
 
Derangel said:
I never said anything about time. Of course they have time to do it, the question isn't about time it's about money. Is it really worth it for them to spend at least several thousand dollars redoing all the bosses and then release it for free? Even back in the "golden days" of gaming that wouldn't happen.
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Diablo 2 and uber tristram would like to have a word with you.
 
If you actually tried to fight the bosses outright they where quite a challenge. I found the easiest way to defeat them was to just throw HE mines at their feet. Once they started to come out of stun they just fired off the next one. :p Was pretty much a no hit affair. Didn't make it any harder that there where HE mines everywhere for me to loot.
 
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