Lightsquare’s LTE Plan Under Scrutiny Once Again

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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Lawmakers on the U.S. House of Representatives Small Business Committee heard concerns from critics of Lightsquare’s plan to create a nationwide broadband network on the behalf of farming and aviation industries today. Both industries rely heavily on GPS technology which is in danger of being disrupted by Lightsquare’s network.

"LightSquared must not be allowed to broadcast their signal in the upper or lower bands of GPS," Greene said. "Not today, tomorrow or ever until a feasible and economical resolution is found."
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As much as widespread internet like their proposed network would be awesome risking those other industries is not reasonable.
 
I can't help but get the feeling that AT&T and Verizon are backing most of this Anti-Lightsquared shit flinging.
 
What about the millions of handheld phones, GPSs and cars that will be affected? Who pays to modify those devices?
 
Even if they are, the result will be the right thing. This is physics, you can't make these issues disappear. It's unfortunate but anyone who believes LightSquared was blindsided by this possibility is crazy. I am sure they had RF engineers on staff before they bid for this spectrum.
 
Probably why they managed to get that spectrum, no one else wanted it because they knew of the bleeding issues.

That said, I can imagine this being like a Hughes Net service, where you'll get a whole lot of nothing for a whole bunch of money.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Probably why they managed to get that spectrum, no one else wanted it because they knew of the bleeding issues.

That said, I can imagine this being like a Hughes Net service, where you'll get a whole lot of nothing for a whole bunch of money.
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Wouldn't be such a big deal if Light speed was 5 times as fast...
 
Here is the obvious question:

If the issues were known, why did they "sell" that spectrum at all???

I mean, if i knew of such issues, i would have set it aside to avoid those issues...
 
I bet this "scrutiny" has nothing to do with the huge amount of lobbying dollars AT&T and Verizon pour in...no siree....
 
They made their GPS units as cheaply as they could, and with seemingly no concern that nearby spectrum would ever be sold. Now, with millions and millions of units sold, the GPS industry, and those that depend on the system working, are in a bind because the product may no longer work correctly due to the corners the designers/manufacturers cut.

We still can not allow the use of that neighboring spectrum til it is fixed, that would cause a ridiculous amount of problems, (we can't just recall 90% of the GPS units out there after all, but I would like to see the manufacturers at least take responsibility for the problem. They need to pay off Lightaquare, and tell the public "hey, we f***** up". Then they need to fix their units going forward, so the neighboring spectrum can eventually be used.
 
This isn't much different than Solyndra. Obama and other politicians has gotten a lot of money from these guys that own the company.
 
Kymer said:
This isn't much different than Solyndra. Obama and other politicians has gotten a lot of money from these guys that own the company.
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Herp a derp Obama's fault,, herp herp herp..

Problem is Lightsquared got the spectrum in 2004
 
sfsuphysics said:
Herp a derp Obama's fault,, herp herp herp..

Problem is Lightsquared got the spectrum in 2004
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Many of the backers of Lightsquared, known at the time as Skyterra donated over $150,000 to Obama's campaign since 2004. Also Obama invested around $50,000 in Skyterra in 2005 right before the FCC ruled in the company's favor. Can you say insider trading?
 
Is it just me or does it look like everyone involved in GPS is at fault and lightsquared is just being screwed. Not that they can use the spectrum in any case; because of all the problems it would cause, but it seems like they have a right here to sue to pants off of everyone involved here; because the spectrum should never have been sold. Maybe they can get some of the money they've invested back.
 
wtiger said:
Is it just me or does it look like everyone involved in GPS is at fault and lightsquared is just being screwed. Not that they can use the spectrum in any case; because of all the problems it would cause, but it seems like they have a right here to sue to pants off of everyone involved here; because the spectrum should never have been sold. Maybe they can get some of the money they've invested back.
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They can use the spectrum, they just can't get the waiver they're asking for which their equipment interferes with just about any GPS equipment out there. Why don't you reverse the situation and apply it to the people who uses GPS equipment. Lightsquared is suing to force the FCC to allow them to fuck with the military's GPS' equipment including civilian general purpose GPS devices.
 
Kaitian said:
They can use the spectrum, they just can't get the waiver they're asking for which their equipment interferes with just about any GPS equipment out there. Why don't you reverse the situation and apply it to the people who uses GPS equipment. Lightsquared is suing to force the FCC to allow them to fuck with the military's GPS' equipment including civilian general purpose GPS devices.
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Military GPS units will not be effected, they are too sensitive and accurate (you don't want your tank platoon to get lost in the middle of nowhere because there are clouds in the sky). The problem is that current consumer grade GPS receivers are very weak (to save money), and the manufactures assumed that no one would ever purchase the spectrum near theirs, so they wouldn't have to deal with any kind of interference.
 
wizdum said:
Military GPS units will not be effected, they are too sensitive and accurate (you don't want your tank platoon to get lost in the middle of nowhere because there are clouds in the sky). The problem is that current consumer grade GPS receivers are very weak (to save money), and the manufactures assumed that no one would ever purchase the spectrum near theirs, so they wouldn't have to deal with any kind of interference.
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This is my understanding of the problem, simply: LightSquared purchased the rights to use a certain range of frequencies, but they can't because GPS manufacturers have been squatting on it. Now LightSquared can't use what they paid for because someone who didn't pay for it is already using it.

Is that correct, or have I missed something?
 
Spewn said:
This is my understanding of the problem, simply: LightSquared purchased the rights to use a certain range of frequencies, but they can't because GPS manufacturers have been squatting on it. Now LightSquared can't use what they paid for because someone who didn't pay for it is already using it.

Is that correct, or have I missed something?
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Somewhat. GPS manu's are not squatting on the frequency, it's that consumer grade GPS devices aren't built to exacting tolerances. They skimped on making better GPS transponders on a bet that no one would use the spectrum Lightspeed purchased. So, they fucked up and now Lightspeed gets screwed because of it.
 
I agree with the suggestion that all GPS manufacturers should buy the spectrum if they dont want anyone to use it, otherwise allow it to be used. This is going to court no matter how you look at it. The spectrum was sold knowing that it would never be allowed to be used, that is fraud in my book.
 
wizdum said:
Military GPS units will not be effected, they are too sensitive and accurate (you don't want your tank platoon to get lost in the middle of nowhere because there are clouds in the sky). The problem is that current consumer grade GPS receivers are very weak (to save money),
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Testing has already shown that military GPS receivers are affected. Military receivers could go with a purely L2 solution, unlike civilian receivers, but then they would lose all the benefits of having two GPS signals in the first place.

And it's the most expensive, sensitive receivers that are affected by LightSquared. The cheaper ones are less affected.

and the manufactures assumed that no one would ever purchase the spectrum near theirs, so they wouldn't have to deal with any kind of interference.
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No, the manufacturers assumed that the FCC would continue their policies that explicitly forbid what LightSquared is attempting in the L-band spectrum, which is to create terrestrial networks that can broadcast at power levels that overpower the GPS signals.
 
Spewn said:
This is my understanding of the problem, simply: LightSquared purchased the rights to use a certain range of frequencies, but they can't because GPS manufacturers have been squatting on it. Now LightSquared can't use what they paid for because someone who didn't pay for it is already using it.

Is that correct, or have I missed something?
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They have a license for their spectrum for satellite broadcasting with a "Ancillary Terrestrial Component" which allows them to build a small number of a low power ground transmitters to add coverage in areas of poor satellite reception. However, their use of the spectrum comes with a number of a limitations, including:

-no purely terrestrial service, every handset they sell must be capable of satellite and ground communication
-the satellite service must be primary, the ground transmitters cannot overpower the satellite signals
-cannot cause any interference to existing users such as GPS

Now, they requested a waiver to allow the buildup of a purely terrestrial service in November 2010. The waiver was granted but only on the condition that it doesn't interfere with GPS. Several months of testing by government agencies, the military and private industry has shown that the original proposed LightSquared network would render GPS effectively useless in the USA.
 
SLee nailed it, I farm and our receivers are far from cheap and low accuracy. Entry level receivers cost around 1200 dollars, for L2 capable receivers your looking at $5000 and up. Most guys have one for each tractor/combine/sprayer. Machines year 2000 and up are tied into gps to the point of not fully functioning without a gps source. Mainly for guidance, but also for recording sight specific data (combines) and auto shutoffs on things like planters and chemical applicators. Not to mention most fertilizer applicators vary the amount applied based on where they are in a field by using a gps source.


Devin
 
Kymer said:
Many of the backers of Lightsquared, known at the time as Skyterra donated over $150,000 to Obama's campaign since 2004. Also Obama invested around $50,000 in Skyterra in 2005 right before the FCC ruled in the company's favor. Can you say insider trading?
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150K, while a lot of money to you and me, isn't a huge amount of money in terms of campaign contributions.
 
SLee said:
Now, they requested a waiver to allow the buildup of a purely terrestrial service in November 2010. The waiver was granted but only on the condition that it doesn't interfere with GPS. Several months of testing by government agencies, the military and private industry has shown that the original proposed LightSquared network would render GPS effectively useless in the USA.
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So you're saying it's not a matter of GPS devices failing to filter out LightSquared's part of the spectrum, but rather that the FCC sold the same part of the spectrum to two people and requires them to use it in a way that doesn't affect the other?
 
Spewn said:
So you're saying it's not a matter of GPS devices failing to filter out LightSquared's part of the spectrum, but rather that the FCC sold the same part of the spectrum to two people and requires them to use it in a way that doesn't affect the other?
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I'm saying that LightSquared's licensed spectrum has been historically and internationally recognized for satellite broadcast use only. It's why GPS, GLONASS and future systems from the EU, Japan and China are all going to use this spectrum and why the FCC explicitly forbid any previous licensees of this spectrum from building a purely terrestrial network.

So it's not that GPS receivers are using LS's spectrum, they were built to FCC and international rules and regulations for this spectrum and simply don't have filters that can block out a powerful nearby signal while still hearing the billions of times fainter GPS signal.

And it's precisely this limitation of part of the spectrum that makes it relatively cheap, LS paid somewhere around $2 billion for it and contains somewhere around 40 MHz. Verizon paid $10 billion for just 22 MHz.
 
SLee said:
I'm saying that LightSquared's licensed spectrum has been historically and internationally recognized for satellite broadcast use only. It's why GPS, GLONASS and future systems from the EU, Japan and China are all going to use this spectrum and why the FCC explicitly forbid any previous licensees of this spectrum from building a purely terrestrial network.

So it's not that GPS receivers are using LS's spectrum, they were built to FCC and international rules and regulations for this spectrum and simply don't have filters that can block out a powerful nearby signal while still hearing the billions of times fainter GPS signal.

And it's precisely this limitation of part of the spectrum that makes it relatively cheap, LS paid somewhere around $2 billion for it and contains somewhere around 40 MHz. Verizon paid $10 billion for just 22 MHz.
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That makes a bit more sense. I was under the impression that LightSquared had simply purchased the spectrum *next to* GPS. If LightSquared was aware of the limitations before-hand, I don't know why they're making so much noise about it.
 
Spewn said:
If LightSquared was aware of the limitations before-hand, I don't know why they're making so much noise about it.
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I think it has a lot to do with money problems. They're slowly running out of money and unless they're able to allowed to use their spectrum for their network, nobody is willing to lend them money. The Sprint agreement is also supposed to expire in a few months if they're unable to resolve the GPS issue. But the language of the military and government agencies all suggest that further testing will take many months at least even before any decision will be made.
 
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