Army Fails to Correctly Test Combat Body Armor

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
75,399
This could be related back to the old parachute joke where the salesman states that if it fails to open, bring it back for a full refund. The difference is with the five million pieces of improperly tested body armor is this is for real and isn’t funny.
 
Just remembered the "First World Problems" meme entry in knowyourmeme.com.

In our Army's case: What "body armor" are you talking about? We have to buy our own boots?
 
Just terrible but, I mean, what can I say. America along with the world expect this out of the United States now. Chances are, this was done on purpose so that a handful of people could make millions of the mistake. Soldiers, our friends, fathers, brothers put at risk over, and chances are very good, because greed and ignorance.

And it doesn't stop there. Several news sources are reporting that 31 Americans Killed Including 25 SEALs in Afghan Chopper Crash. Can you even imagine? Horrible news, hundreds of family members, lives changed forever.

I feel very humbled this AM.

RIP.
 
Big omission. Who the hell is the company who made the plates. I don't fault the Army, it gets pretty confusing since deregulation of Corporations. Companies regulate themselves and test their own products and write their own reports unless the government insists on an independent study. This article is slanted in blaming the Army, who ever wrote this one sided news clip needs to actually get out there and get the info that matters. Hey Gizmodo, I think the readers want some details if you can't supply it, don't write half baked articles to fill in a spot.
 
If I remember correctly, there was quite a scandal regarding body armor as there were superior competing designs at a lower cost as well, but the contract was given to one company regardless because somebody knew somebody...

I think one of the competing designs was called dragonscale or something, supposed to be much lighter, flexible, and better defense etc.
 
what a way to blow 2.5 billion. at least make sure it fits the requirements first... shit.
 
what a disgrace. I would think the army would have some QC to test batches of these.

Then again its china prob that makes it so what would you expect.lol
 
The better armor you're referring to is Dragon Skin, and it says a lot that many of our Spec Ops guys and the CIA quickly got their hands on it, while acceptance for Dragon Skin amongst the "conventional" forces has been remarkably cloudy, to say the least ... tons of red tape, very strange "conventional force" test results, and seemingly deliberate clamp-downs of people who know better ... it's a shame, because our troops are being inadequately protected due to ambition and greed. It reminds me of the scene in Robocop where corporate greedmeister Dick Jones says, "I had a guaranteed military sale with ED-209! Renovation program! Spare parts for 25 years! Who cares if it worked or not?"

The Wikipedia link above has a lot of good sub-links at the bottom of the article; the evidence is pretty strong in Dragon Skin's favor. Seems like deliberate steering away from Dragon Skin maker Pinnacle Armor in favor of Interceptor makers, who (combined) have hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of body armor contracts at stake ...

RyanLucier said:
If I remember correctly, there was quite a scandal regarding body armor as there were superior competing designs at a lower cost as well, but the contract was given to one company regardless because somebody knew somebody...

I think one of the competing designs was called dragonscale or something, supposed to be much lighter, flexible, and better defense etc.
Click to expand...
 
Sufficient ballistics testing or not, our troops at least are better protected these days than their predecessors were. I watch documentary footage of our boys in WWII and Vietnam and marvel at how they plunged into combat with no body armor except a steel helmet and, if they were really lucky, a flak jacket of dubious protection. I think that any of them would have gladly accepted even the most inferior tactical brands of modern body armor by Pinnacle.
 
I fricking hate articles that lie in the title to make it sound much more severe than it is

The Army Didn’t Bother Testing
Click to expand...

is WAY fucking different than

"The tests we reviewed were incomplete, executed with the wrong size ballistic insert, or performed in environmental test conditions outside of the range specified.
Click to expand...

Domo gets +5 internets for making a better title.
 
Deadly Ramon said:
Sufficient ballistics testing or not, our troops at least are better protected these days than their predecessors were. I watch documentary footage of our boys in WWII and Vietnam and marvel at how they plunged into combat with no body armor except a steel helmet and, if they were really lucky, a flak jacket of dubious protection. I think that any of them would have gladly accepted even the most inferior tactical brands of modern body armor by Pinnacle.
Click to expand...

We live in a different world, now.
 
Deadly Ramon said:
Sufficient ballistics testing or not, our troops at least are better protected these days than their predecessors were. I watch documentary footage of our boys in WWII and Vietnam and marvel at how they plunged into combat with no body armor except a steel helmet and, if they were really lucky, a flak jacket of dubious protection. I think that any of them would have gladly accepted even the most inferior tactical brands of modern body armor by Pinnacle.
Click to expand...

While this is true, when the US is supposed to watch it's pennies having payed billions for body armor not up to spec on the battlefield standpoint. This is very very unacceptable. Puts the lives of many more of America's men and women at risk where they shouldn't be if the equipment was fully tested and inspected before going to full production specs.
 
J32P said:
I'm almost positive it's the same exact world, don't quote me on it though!
Click to expand...

lol! :D Yeah, I have read a few 20's era newspapers. You'd be suprised at how SSDD works, even far into the past. Same scandels, same politicians, same old, same old...
 
Uncle said:
Big omission. Who the hell is the company who made the plates. I don't fault the Army, it gets pretty confusing since deregulation of Corporations. Companies regulate themselves and test their own products and write their own reports unless the government insists on an independent study. This article is slanted in blaming the Army, who ever wrote this one sided news clip needs to actually get out there and get the info that matters. Hey Gizmodo, I think the readers want some details if you can't supply it, don't write half baked articles to fill in a spot.
Click to expand...

They are both to blame.
 
Uncle said:
Big omission. Who the hell is the company who made the plates. I don't fault the Army, it gets pretty confusing since deregulation of Corporations. Companies regulate themselves and test their own products and write their own reports unless the government insists on an independent study. This article is slanted in blaming the Army, who ever wrote this one sided news clip needs to actually get out there and get the info that matters. Hey Gizmodo, I think the readers want some details if you can't supply it, don't write half baked articles to fill in a spot.
Click to expand...

It came from Gizmodo, that should be enough to know it's going to suck.
 
RyanLucier said:
If I remember correctly, there was quite a scandal regarding body armor as there were superior competing designs at a lower cost as well, but the contract was given to one company regardless because somebody knew somebody...

I think one of the competing designs was called dragonscale or something, supposed to be much lighter, flexible, and better defense etc.
Click to expand...

I remember the same. There are vastly superior armor techs out there for the same cost, but that doesn't matter to big government. They are told by their buddy company "oh no no, ours are just as good" (plus hefty "donation"), and they turn a blind eye to the truth.

Same as it ever was.
 
lilbabycat said:
I remember the same. There are vastly superior armor techs out there for the same cost, but that doesn't matter to big government. They are told by their buddy company "oh no no, ours are just as good" (plus hefty "donation"), and they turn a blind eye to the truth.

Same as it ever was.
Click to expand...

Thats what happens when 90% of top generals go work for defense contractors after retiring.
 
BladeVenom said:
Dragon Skin failed in Army testing. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1879050...skin-armor-failed-battery-tests/#.Tj2NEmHNoaM
Click to expand...

Today's story + your linked story suggests that both armors would fail. This quote from the story is pretty ridiculous too.
Holding up an armor-piercing bullet, Brown showed video of the tests, including footage of officials peering into the bullet hole in the Dragon Skin armor. "At the end of the day, this one disc has to stop this round. It didn't. Thirteen times," he said.
Click to expand...

Newsflash: Interceptor armor would have the same hole in it from armor piercing rounds.
 
BladeVenom said:
Dragon Skin failed in Army testing. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1879050...skin-armor-failed-battery-tests/#.Tj2NEmHNoaM
Click to expand...

I remember this, and I also remember that the methodology of the Army testing was not released. I saw the tests performed on the NBC Dateline special, which had much different results, with the Dragon Skin stopping 7.62x54mm AP Incendiary rounds. That's the nastiest thing from a Commie gun you're going to see on the field. They even tested it on Mail Call where Gunny dumped a magazine from an AK-47 at close range as well as a 9mm submachinegun and it stopped every round from both weapons with zero penetration - on the same piece of armor. This leads me to wonder a great deal about how the Army was testing. Were they shooting with .50 cal SLAP rounds just to make it fail? No personal body armor will stop those. Was the armor properly fitted to the test dummies? Improperly fit armor of any kind can be defeated. Unless the Army were to release video footage of identical tests performed on both armors - which they won't do - then how and why a piece of armor failed will basically be the Army's word. It may have legitimately failed the tests, but how it's tested is important to know why something passed or failed.

Keep in mind also that the military has a lot of money already tied up in Interceptor, and switching over to another system provides for logistical problems, plus if a differing armor system is fielded then you'll have some soldiers trained with one set of equipment and another set trained with another. If one kind is superior to the other then everyone will be wanting the new armor so already purchased equipment will be undesired and if unused is a wasted purchase - not nice when the dollar signs are in the billions. Then there's the "Why didn't my son/daughter have this when you knew it was better, he/she might still be alive" factor. This would not be the first time the military lied about a piece of equipment (anyone else remember the M-16 being described as a self-cleaning rifle in Vietnam AFTER they switched the powder from stick to ball?). This is not to say Interceptor doesn't work, it's saved a lot of lives, but this quality control issue they've just encountered shows a need for better oversight regardless of what system is in use.
 
Phoenix333 said:
I remember this, and I also remember that the methodology of the Army testing was not released. I saw the tests performed on the NBC Dateline special, which had much different results, with the Dragon Skin stopping 7.62x54mm AP Incendiary rounds. That's the nastiest thing from a Commie gun you're going to see on the field. They even tested it on Mail Call where Gunny dumped a magazine from an AK-47 at close range as well as a 9mm submachinegun and it stopped every round from both weapons with zero penetration - on the same piece of armor. This leads me to wonder a great deal about how the Army was testing. Were they shooting with .50 cal SLAP rounds just to make it fail? No personal body armor will stop those. Was the armor properly fitted to the test dummies? Improperly fit armor of any kind can be defeated. Unless the Army were to release video footage of identical tests performed on both armors - which they won't do - then how and why a piece of armor failed will basically be the Army's word. It may have legitimately failed the tests, but how it's tested is important to know why something passed or failed.

Keep in mind also that the military has a lot of money already tied up in Interceptor, and switching over to another system provides for logistical problems, plus if a differing armor system is fielded then you'll have some soldiers trained with one set of equipment and another set trained with another. If one kind is superior to the other then everyone will be wanting the new armor so already purchased equipment will be undesired and if unused is a wasted purchase - not nice when the dollar signs are in the billions. Then there's the "Why didn't my son/daughter have this when you knew it was better, he/she might still be alive" factor. This would not be the first time the military lied about a piece of equipment (anyone else remember the M-16 being described as a self-cleaning rifle in Vietnam AFTER they switched the powder from stick to ball?). This is not to say Interceptor doesn't work, it's saved a lot of lives, but this quality control issue they've just encountered shows a need for better oversight regardless of what system is in use.
Click to expand...

Dragon Skin was also featured on that Discovery show, with the ex-Seal, always forget the name. It performed extremely well in his "testing" at the range with various rounds and rifles.
 
There's a local (Austin, TX) company called ArmorUP L.P. that specializes in the sale of body armor, from concealed to tactical, for both civilians and military servicemen. Its website, bulletproofme.com, is full of information about the various brands it carries, including the armor protection rating of each piece. It stocks protective clothing from various manufacturers, including Armorsmith, Interceptor, Blackhawk, ProMAX, and others, yet doesn't carry anything by Pinnacle Armor, who makes Dragon Skin. There could be any number of reasons for that, but I suspect that if Dragon Skin was by far the best armor on the market, then ArmorUP L.P. would do everything it could to carry and highlight it.
 
Myth busters tested something like this using ceramic (bathroom) tiles. Cheap and worked well
 
The risk of getting caught making sub standard shit would not be off set by the profit.
 
I dont know how much I can say due to Opsec reasons, but I'm Deployed right now and We exchanged plates mid deployment for some more "Durable ones", the weight difference is greater then going from the Training plates to the "standard" ones that we get.

Dragonskin has never been approved for anyone to use in the DoD, and I for one love the IOTV (Improved Outer Tactical Vest), Its a huge upgrade from the piece of shit Interceptor, The Interceptor puts all the weight on your damn shoulders and the IOTV puts it on your hips where it belongs.
 
The IOTV that we currently use is just great. Being that we were in Afghanistan, we switched out halfway to plate carriers, which were lighter but put a lot of weight again on your shoulders.

The IOTV provided a great amount of range of motion, protection, and comfort. I think most people hated the IBA (interceptor), but most combat units went away from them years ago.
 
wizdum said:
Isn't Interceptor armor that really heavy shit that no one wears because it limits your range of motion to zero? Dragon skin is a vest, with high mobility, that is designed to take multiple hits (the ceramic plates in interceptor vests shatter, stopping the first shot, but leaving you wide open for a second).
Click to expand...

the discs in DS are a novel idea, because if you get hit in one place, it doesn't affect the discs in another place. however, if they keep falling out of place because the heat (120+ in Afghanistan/Iraq) keeps melting the stuff, then you're not going to have much confidence in the armor.

contrary to some belief - the current plates provide protection against more than one shot. technically, if you take a hit (or, if you drop the plate on a hard surface, or find a chip or somethign), you are supposed to turn the plates in for replacement. however, i personally know plenty of guys who took multiple AK and PKM rounds in the same plate and were protected. I know of one guy who got shot in the chest SEVEN times and none of them penetrated his plates.

By the way, the IBA and IOTV use the same plates...
 
1. return them for a full refund and pay off some debt instead of war spending

2. the next time the require an oil war, have them made in the USA and not outsourced to china lol

ok not sure if 2 is true but it wouldn't surprise me
 
I think Incerceptor's issue was more of complaints about the Carrier's weight distribution, not the armor itself; and has been fixed with newer armor carriers like IOTV for the Army and MTV for the Marines.

Dragonskin also received the criticism of being too heavy. There was a lot of hype around 2007~2008ish for it, but it has cooled

See this post by battlefield journalist Michael Yon (a former Green Beret), who has been working in Iraq.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/news-flash-dragon-skin.htm


Here's the Armed Services Board of Contract Appeals' decision on canceling the contract to Pinnacle Armor for Dragonskin, makes the company looks rather shady

http://www.pubklaw.com/rd/boards/asbca55831.pdf
 
RyanLucier said:
If I remember correctly, there was quite a scandal regarding body armor as there were superior competing designs at a lower cost as well, but the contract was given to one company regardless because somebody knew somebody...

I think one of the competing designs was called dragonscale or something, supposed to be much lighter, flexible, and better defense etc.
Click to expand...

Yes you are correct. Dragon skin armor. I remember reading about this story a few years ago.
 
tungt88 said:
The better armor you're referring to is Dragon Skin, and it says a lot that many of our Spec Ops guys and the CIA quickly got their hands on it, while acceptance for Dragon Skin amongst the "conventional" forces has been remarkably cloudy, to say the least ... tons of red tape, very strange "conventional force" test results, and seemingly deliberate clamp-downs of people who know better ... it's a shame, because our troops are being inadequately protected due to ambition and greed. It reminds me of the scene in Robocop where corporate greedmeister Dick Jones says, "I had a guaranteed military sale with ED-209! Renovation program! Spare parts for 25 years! Who cares if it worked or not?"

The Wikipedia link above has a lot of good sub-links at the bottom of the article; the evidence is pretty strong in Dragon Skin's favor. Seems like deliberate steering away from Dragon Skin maker Pinnacle Armor in favor of Interceptor makers, who (combined) have hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of body armor contracts at stake ...
Click to expand...

Except the wikipedia link leaves out anything bad about dragon skin. After the massive spin job they undertook to make it seem like the best stuff on earth, they got the crap kicked out of them not just for politics, but for failure to perform.

The ballistic discs are arranged like scale mail. This means that you can have variable levels of threat protection. In DoD tests, they tested 8 vests for v0 protection (NO projectiles should penetrate at that velocity), and four failed. In another test, they got 13 first or second shot penetrations. They got a significant increase in first shot penetrations when the vest was exposed to diesel.

When the vests were banned by the army, it was due to witnessing a catastrophic failure. IIRC this failure was due to the overlapping discs failing to remain in place.

Then you ahve the logistics problems.
1) each vest costs 3x as much.
2) each vest weighs a minimum of 14 pounds more.
3) it still uses an aramid fiber in addition to the discs. This means it neads to be sealed form moisture.
4) THe discs still become dmaaged liek a trauma plate. However, unlike a trauma plate where you throw out a PART of the system, but cna still save other parts, You can't repair the system without compromising the level of protection. Which means you now throw away $10,000 armor like you tossed cheap trauma plates.

There's a very complete breakdown of that whole thing here: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14523
 
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