60hz to 120hz, and my unfortunate experience

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Bladestorm

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
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I briefly touched on this in another thread, but felt I needed to make my own.

I purchased the Asus VG236HE a week and a half ago purely for the 120hz refresh rate. Well after playing a few different games I honestly cannot tell much of a difference at all in smoothness or reduced blur coming from my old HP LP2465 S-PVA monitor. I would say at best it feels 10-20% smoother, and that's probably being to generous. Certainly the blur is still present, and that's what I was hoping to eliminate by getting this monitor.

If anyone can recommend something for me to try out I'll give the monitor one last go, but otherwise it's going back.
 
When I first started using my 2233RZ, I immediately noticed how much more fluid it was - basically an LCD with CRT performance. Maybe you had a bad panel. Also, you did actually change the refresh rate within the OS, right? Otherwise it will still respond at 60hz.

And just to add, I do notice the same blurring/ghosting on my panel as most other LCD's. Though, I presume that is due to response rate (ie. 2ms, 4ms) rather than refresh rate (hz). It should be taken that the motion itself is just much faster at 120hz.
 
yep it should be noticeable immediately when you first move the mouse cursor
make sure its set to 120hz in windows and that your game puts out 120fps

edit: oh and make sure your games don't change the refresh rate back to 60hz
 
dowant120hz said:
yep it should be noticeable immediately when you first move the mouse cursor
make sure its set to 120hz in windows and that your game puts out 120fps
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x2

make sure that windows is using 120hz. I had mine, for whatever reason, keep defaulting to 59hz on an old windows install.

Also, you're not going to see a difference (or much of one) if you're not running the games at or above 120FPS. Try lowering some eye candy and see if it makes a difference for ya. For me, going to 120hz was a night and day difference.
 
It is set to 120hz in Windows.

I have both monitors hooked up to my GTX 580 in extended desktop mode, and when I move my cursor across both screens I see the same amount of cursor ghosting or trailing. Is that supposed to be completely eliminated with 120hz?

How do I make sure my games don't change the refresh rate back to 60hz?
 
Bladestorm said:
It is set to 120hz in Windows.

I have both monitors hooked up to my GTX 580 in extended desktop mode, and when I move my cursor across both screens I see the same amount of cursor ghosting or trailing. Is that supposed to be completely eliminated with 120hz?

How do I make sure my games don't change the refresh rate back to 60hz?
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Yeah, that doesn't sound right... the 120hz should be displaying it butter smooth. Try disabling the 60hz monitor completely so only the 120hz is active. Then set it to 60hz and observe the screen (mouse cursor and window animations)... then set it back to 120hz and observe the same thing. You should see a pretty drastic difference... if you're not, then something isn't right.
 
Additionally I'd suggest taking a look through the monitors menu system and bring up the current display settings, it should indicate the resolution and the refresh rate being fed/displayed.
 
I feel you bro.

I purchased the exact same monitor for the exact same reason and had the exact same result.

I checked to make sure everything was set to 120hz in windows, on the monitor and in game. I could not tell a damn bit of difference so I returned the monitor to Fry's paid the restocking fee and set my Samsung 245bw back up.

It was dissappointing because I was very much looking forward to the 120hz. I'm glad to see someone else had the same feeling as me. Now I dont feel so...weird lol

-AI
 
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All I can say is that every workday I stare at my work 60hz LCD. I get home, boot up my PC and O.M.G. 120hz relaxes me. I usually endup moving the mouse around on the desktop for a good 30 seconds. Just going in circles, no point to it but take in the relaxing smoothness.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I fully enjoy 120hz every time I sit down at my PC.
 
Druneau said:
All I can say is that every workday I stare at my work 60hz LCD. I get home, boot up my PC and O.M.G. 120hz relaxes me. I usually endup moving the mouse around on the desktop for a good 30 seconds. Just going in circles, no point to it but take in the relaxing smoothness.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I fully enjoy 120hz every time I sit down at my PC.
Click to expand...

I totally expected to have this experience. Thats why I was let down. Maybe i'm just getting too old to tell the difference :)
 
Druneau said:
I usually endup moving the mouse around on the desktop for a good 30 seconds. Just going in circles, no point to it but take in the relaxing smoothness.
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I don't have a 120 hz monitor, but when I tested out a 120 hz Asus monitor at a Fry's store, just moving the mouse cursor was amazing. So buttery smooth. It really is awesome.
 
roocrew99 said:
I totally expected to have this experience. Thats why I was let down. Maybe i'm just getting too old to tell the difference :)
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Trust you eyes, not the hype. One thing is certain, human perception differs dramatically person to person. If you can't see the advantage in 120hz, there isn't one (for you). This is liberating, because it opens up a lot of other options.
 
I heard if you run an nvidia card with 120hz, you NEED to make sure its set to 120hz in the Nvidia control Panel and windows.
 
Hey you wont tell much difference right away but after you keep it for a few months and then go back to 60hz you will see the difference ;)
 
Bladestorm said:
I have both monitors hooked up to my GTX 580 in extended desktop mode, and when I move my cursor across both screens I see the same amount of cursor ghosting or trailing. Is that supposed to be completely eliminated with 120hz?
Click to expand...

That shouldn't be happening at all. Something is wrong with your setup, sounds like you are still at 60hz in a software setting or you used the wrong DVI cable (need a dual-link with all the pins).

There should be an obvious difference just moving the mouse around in a small circle between a 60hz and 120hz monitor in extended desktop.
 
Most monitors will have an "information" button / access menu function, and can detect what resolution and refresh rate its current set at. Is how i usually determine if my game is forcing a different refresh rate.

If you don't think its significantly smoother compared to an S-PVA then you're... unique. And yes i do realize some people's eyes just cannot tell the difference.

Personally i've committed to gaming entirely on a plasma. The LCD blur is murder on my eyes whenever i try to go back. I don't know if plasma has sample-n-hold issues, but if there is, its hard to tell.
 
What plasma do you game on?
My dream is that one day there will be plasmas with displayport inputs that can accept and display 120hz signals from a pc.
 
Wow, the HP LP2465 is laggy as hell and ghosts like a bastard too. Even my current 28" I-inc is a night and day difference in responsiveness and ghosting or lack thereof from that HP display.

Inu said:
If you don't think its significantly smoother compared to an S-PVA then you're... unique.
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Yeah, thats the first thing that I thought too.
 
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went from 60hz eyefinity to 120hz, noticeable difference even though its not like heaven on earth.
smoother experience.
adding to the desktop and gaming everyday use.
 
Either that 120 hz LCD model is crappy (unlike 2233RZ for example), or there is some problem and you're only getting a 60 hz image.

Moving the cursor around at 120 hz should give you twice as little distance between the ghosts...

However, it also be a personal/age thing. I can't say. I can easily tell difference between 120/60/30 hz. But I showed my parents the same video at 60 fps and 30 fps and they couldn't see much difference (yet it was extremely obvious to me... I couldn't believe them lol).
 
It is really dependent on the individual. Some people cant notice any difference between 60 and 120 Hz while it for others is a hugh difference. Some people are more sensitive than others.
 
Blur and 120hz aren't the same thing.

Blur is caused by the speed of the pixels not changing fast enough or known as response time.

120hz is the rate at which the monitor sends the signal to change the pixels.

Then there is input lag, which is the time it takes the monitor to receive and begin to send the signal to change the pixels.

Of course if your settings aren't right then you probably are getting worse blur. So think about this for a second, if a guy was moving across the screen and you saw 10 updates, well on a 120hz you would see 20 updates. You can have a 60hz monitor with no blur, which is fine if that is what you are looking for. The advantage to 120hz is mainly in FPS games where you will get more updates on where the enemy is moving, you'll get a slight lead in spotting someone around the corner, etc...

Now 120hz monitors still tend to have a tiny bit of blur since now the pixels are having to change twice as fast/often.
 
DumpALump said:
Blur and 120hz aren't the same thing.

Blur is caused by the speed of the pixels not changing fast enough or known as response time.

120hz is the rate at which the monitor sends the signal to change the pixels.

Then there is input lag, which is the time it takes the monitor to receive and begin to send the signal to change the pixels.

Of course if your settings aren't right then you probably are getting worse blur. So think about this for a second, if a guy was moving across the screen and you saw 10 updates, well on a 120hz you would see 20 updates. You can have a 60hz monitor with no blur, which is fine if that is what you are looking for. The advantage to 120hz is mainly in FPS games where you will get more updates on where the enemy is moving, you'll get a slight lead in spotting someone around the corner, etc...

Now 120hz monitors still tend to have a tiny bit of blur since now the pixels are having to change twice as fast/often.
Click to expand...

More important than pixel response blur with fast response LCDs today, sample and hold blur is the primary cause of motion blur in LCDs - and 120 Hz monitors cut it in half.

Read about sample and hold blur here.

So that's mostly why we find 120 Hz monitors so smooth, although for even faster moving objects it's still not enough.
 
If you ahve a 120 Hx monitor now...why not use it for the only thing it's good at: 3D? Go buy the glasses and try it.
 
The only thing 3d gaming is good for in my eyes is getting us 120hz LCD's.
 
^
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Funny, the only reason I could see to buy a 120 Hz LCD is 3D gaming... circular logic
 
i think the fewest buy a 120hz monitor just for 3d

most of us just buy it for the fluid motion
some also buy it for checking out the 3d effect
they tend to quickly regret it realizing that the current 3d tech/hardware is... kinda suboptimal
 
Blackbeard Ben said:
More important than pixel response blur with fast response LCDs today, sample and hold blur is the primary cause of motion blur in LCDs - and 120 Hz monitors cut it in half.

Read about sample and hold blur here.

So that's mostly why we find 120 Hz monitors so smooth, although for even faster moving objects it's still not enough.
Click to expand...

Yeah there is blur from that, but the majority I'd say would be from the LCDs being slow to change their pixels in the first place. Either way, what I was trying to get at was blur and 120hz aren't exactly the same thing for people looking to reduce blur. The point behind buying a 120hz monitor is not for a total reduction of blur, more as a gaming/3D gaming thing. Just don't want people rushing out to spend $300-400 on a 120hz monitor without realizing the point of the 120hz monitor (in it's current phase).
 
I've really been comparing both monitors the last two days, and I must admit that I now do see a difference though it is still subtle. It does seem to be game dependent as well. I've been playing a few different games for testing, and going by memory I can say -

Red Faction: Armageddon -

Settings maxed in DX11 mode I can maintain 60 FPS with vsync enabled on the LP2465, and it's pretty smooth. It's somewhat blurry but it doesn't bother me too much. Switching to the VG236HE, 60-120 FPS feels very smooth. The blur is reduced, but still noticeable. I switched back and forth between both monitors a few times and can say for sure that I would enjoy playing this game on either one.

The Witcher 2 -

This game gave much different results. 60 FPS and lower felt the exact same on both monitors. A slight blur, and somewhat jerky. I kinda thought that would happen. What puzzled me was when I drastically lowered my settings to maintain 60+ on the VG236HE, it also felt the same. It was not any smoother.

Crysis 2 -

Pretty much the same result as RF: Armageddon. I'll leave it at that.

Painkiller Black Edition -

I picked it because it's an older but yet fast paced FPS. Maxing the game out I was maintaining 500+ FPS. It was very smooth on both monitors, but on the VG236HE it was in a class of it's own. Very, very fluid. Ok that might be exaggerating a bit, but it was a little more fluid.



At the end of the day I still cannot decide if I want to keep it. The blur is still there with the VG236HE, though it is less than on the LP2465. After reading the comments here I've come to the conclusion that I was mistaken thinking 120hz would eliminate it. That really only leaves the (for me) slight increase in fluidity at 60+ FPS. The problem there is that I'd either need to reduce game settings, or add another GTX 580 to maintain that in new and upcoming games.
 
DumpALump said:
Yeah there is blur from that, but the majority I'd say would be from the LCDs being slow to change their pixels in the first place. Either way, what I was trying to get at was blur and 120hz aren't exactly the same thing for people looking to reduce blur. The point behind buying a 120hz monitor is not for a total reduction of blur, more as a gaming/3D gaming thing. Just don't want people rushing out to spend $300-400 on a 120hz monitor without realizing the point of the 120hz monitor (in it's current phase).
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No, sample and hold blur is the primary cause of blur now. Look at the difference between 60 Hz and 120 Hz on a 120 Hz LCD monitor - where the response time is the same between them.

If the slow response time was the dominant factor, there would be little difference between 60 Hz and 120 Hz - yet we know that 120 Hz LCD monitors are significantly smoother looking.

Compare just response time blur from a relatively slow laptop screen:
http://blackbeardben.smugmug.com/Machines/Screenshots/11427698_chjpe#1376131930_D2Zx8dT-A-LB

With response time blur combined with sample and hold blur at 60 Hz (taken by panning the camera with the moving car):
http://blackbeardben.smugmug.com/Machines/Screenshots/11427698_chjpe#1376133942_9wKBSJH-A-LB

It's a dramatic difference, isn't it? On its own response time blur in fast LCDs isn't very problematic any more. Sample and hold blur, however, is still and will remain a big problem and is the reason we're seeing all these 120 Hz and 240 Hz frame-interpolating TVs (and even some black frame-inserting ones). If response time blur were the main problem still, they'd still be focusing primarily on improving the response time of LCDs.
 
Blackbeard Ben said:
No, sample and hold blur is the primary cause of blur now. Look at the difference between 60 Hz and 120 Hz on a 120 Hz LCD monitor - where the response time is the same between them.

If the slow response time was the dominant factor, there would be little difference between 60 Hz and 120 Hz - yet we know that 120 Hz LCD monitors are significantly smoother looking.

Compare just response time blur from a relatively slow laptop screen:
http://blackbeardben.smugmug.com/Machines/Screenshots/11427698_chjpe#1376131930_D2Zx8dT-A-LB

With response time blur combined with sample and hold blur at 60 Hz (taken by panning the camera with the moving car):
http://blackbeardben.smugmug.com/Machines/Screenshots/11427698_chjpe#1376133942_9wKBSJH-A-LB

It's a dramatic difference, isn't it? On its own response time blur in fast LCDs isn't very problematic any more. Sample and hold blur, however, is still and will remain a big problem and is the reason we're seeing all these 120 Hz and 240 Hz frame-interpolating TVs (and even some black frame-inserting ones). If response time blur were the main problem still, they'd still be focusing primarily on improving the response time of LCDs.
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Ok, I'm not going to argue, since honestly I haven't done a bunch of tests or bothered to do that much research on the subject. I believe you are right, as I don't really notice any blur when gaming on my 120hz. Though, when I'm playing FPS games, blur is the last thing on my mind.

The main reason I thought that it was because of the response time was because of reading of users from different forums talk about how their 60hz monitor didn't have blur vs their new 120hz monitor. Of course they all might not be putting in the right settings. In the case of sample and hold that would mean that their 60hz should obviously display more blur, though that doesn't seem to be the case with some.
 
You guys don't seem to understand that this isn't so much of a 120hz vs 60hz thread. The HP LP2465 is a very laggy monitor that ghosts quite a bit to begin with. I saw a massive difference when going to a 5ms TN never mind 120hz 2ms display. If you don't see a difference between the two in responsiveness I don't know what to say.
 
BababooeyHTJ said:
You guys don't seem to understand that this isn't so much of a 120hz vs 60hz thread. The HP LP2465 is a very laggy monitor that ghosts quite a bit to begin with. I saw a massive difference when going to a 5ms TN never mind 120hz 2ms display. If you don't see a difference between the two in responsiveness I don't know what to say.
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Oh we're not talking about 60hz vs 120hz, we're talking about the reasons for blur. I'm also saying that 120hz does not automatically mean blur is gone, such as with the OP saying that he still noticed blur and wanted it gone.

I love using 120hz since my favorite games are FPS.
 
DumpALump said:
Oh we're not talking about 60hz vs 120hz, we're talking about the reasons for blur. I'm also saying that 120hz does not automatically mean blur is gone, such as with the OP saying that he still noticed blur and wanted it gone.

I love using 120hz since my favorite games are FPS.
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Yes, and an S-PVA panel, especially an older generation S-PVA like the HP LP2465 is a bit famous for ghosting or blur as you call it.
 
if I am running a GTX 570 via DVI to HDMI to a LG 37LE5300 IPS panel can I set it to 120hz in windows? or is this a ''fake'' 120hz monitor like someone else stated?
 
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