Making a PC to be a router?

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fullvietFX

[H]ard|Gawd
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Sep 1, 2004
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How does one do this? I'm tired of all the routers I've tried pooping out on my when I use torrents, play games, other people watching streams. My internet connection can handle it but it seems like my router always poops out, dropping connections, slowing down to a half. I read in the router recommendation thread that you're better off building a computer to act as a router. How does one do this? Please guide me. I am a n00b. Thank you.
 
Overly simplistic but should help you get started:

  1. Get a PC
  2. Get a second Intel NIC
  3. Install PFsense on the PC
  4. Connect PC to modem via onboard NIC.
  5. Connect PC to router/switch via second Intel NIC
  6. Connect other PCs to the router/switch
  7. Win
 
A few things to consider as well. Whats your budget? Do you have a spare computer?

If you don't have a spare computer here's a few different routes to take.

1) Atom Server Board
Pros - Cheapest Power wise to run, 2 intel NICs standard, Most flexibility, Build your own PC
Cons - Highest upfront cost ($200-$300 depending on what other components you have already), knowledge of building your own PC

2) Watchguard Firebox 700e -$50-$100 ebay - Normally a great business firewall router that can be wiped and put PFsense on relatively easily.
Pros - Cheap, 50 watts or so from the wall (power efficient), multiple NICS
Cons- 100mb ethernet, no expandability for future uses if needed


3) Old cheap computer from friend/family/craigslist for $100 or less
Pros- Most likely the cheapest upfront cost, expandability
Cons- More power hungry relative to the other systems in the long run by x2-x3 times probably, old components cost more to replace

Personally I would opt to build the atom server myself if only for the long term benefits of a low power server and the ability to expand.
 
Take a look here....I started a list of many of the router/firewall distros

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1517454&highlight=ipfire

The basics are....
*Take a computer with 2x networks cards....
*Download the ISO, burn the CD
*Boot from the CD and follow the easy hand holding installation wizard.

You don't need to know linux to install and manage these. The installation wizards are easy, and once installed, it's managed via your web browser, just like any homegrade Stinksys or DStink or Nutgear router

Note...some of the distros run the web management on a custom port..so during the install, it will tell you the web management address...make a note of that.
Note...some of the distros have you create a "root" user and pass during the install that is different than the "admin" user/pass for the web admin, make a note of that.

Take an old PC with 2x NICs and try a bunch of different distros, see which one you like. Once you've chosen one, you can look at using a smaller low power consumption box. Old laptops are great too, I used one for many years, using a PCMCIA NIC for my second network card, it was an IBM Thinkpad. Built in keyboard and mouse, built in battery backup, low power consumption, small space.

While many/most NICs work fine, you get superior performance when using good hardware controller based NICs (aka Intel, 3COM, Broadcom) versus software controller based "winNICs"....(aka realtek). Especially with the distros that are UTMs and strong in QoS.
 
Danny Bui said:
Overly simplistic but should help you get started:

  1. Get a PC
  2. Get a second Intel NIC
  3. Install PFsense on the PC
  4. Connect PC to modem via onboard NIC.
  5. Connect PC to router/switch via second Intel NIC
  6. Connect other PCs to the router/switch
  7. Win
Click to expand...

Setup QOS
 
After getting a firewall, what will you use for a WIFI access point ? is the next question.
 
dashpuppy said:
After getting a firewall, what will you use for a WIFI access point ? is the next question.
Click to expand...

Correct. This is something that has driven me batshit crazy on the PC based routers...what is the "step by step" to get a wireless access point.
 
Danny Bui said:
Overly simplistic but should help you get started:

  1. Get a PC
  2. Get a second Intel NIC
  3. Install PFsense on the PC
  4. Connect PC to modem via onboard NIC.
  5. Connect PC to router/switch via second Intel NIC
  6. Connect other PCs to the router/switch
  7. Win
Click to expand...

Thank you this is a good start.

mmmmmdonuts said:
A few things to consider as well. Whats your budget? Do you have a spare computer?

If you don't have a spare computer here's a few different routes to take.

1) Atom Server Board
Pros - Cheapest Power wise to run, 2 intel NICs standard, Most flexibility, Build your own PC
Cons - Highest upfront cost ($200-$300 depending on what other components you have already), knowledge of building your own PC

2) Watchguard Firebox 700e -$50-$100 ebay - Normally a great business firewall router that can be wiped and put PFsense on relatively easily.
Pros - Cheap, 50 watts or so from the wall (power efficient), multiple NICS
Cons- 100mb ethernet, no expandability for future uses if needed


3) Old cheap computer from friend/family/craigslist for $100 or less
Pros- Most likely the cheapest upfront cost, expandability
Cons- More power hungry relative to the other systems in the long run by x2-x3 times probably, old components cost more to replace

Personally I would opt to build the atom server myself if only for the long term benefits of a low power server and the ability to expand.
Click to expand...

I'm probably going to build something new using an Intel i3 and simply underclocking it. Do you think the Atom is too weak? Seems like it's as fast as a router CPU. I could be wrong however since I've never actually looked up the specs for routers.

dashpuppy said:
After getting a firewall, what will you use for a WIFI access point ? is the next question.
Click to expand...

Here is another issue, if I have to use my router to get the new PC/Router/Hybrid to become a WiFi access point wouldn't that bring my network to it's knees again since basically every computer (plus PS3) in my household is wireless?

YeOldeStonecat said:
Take a look here....I started a list of many of the router/firewall distros

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1517454&highlight=ipfire

The basics are....
*Take a computer with 2x networks cards....
*Download the ISO, burn the CD
*Boot from the CD and follow the easy hand holding installation wizard.

You don't need to know linux to install and manage these. The installation wizards are easy, and once installed, it's managed via your web browser, just like any homegrade Stinksys or DStink or Nutgear router

Note...some of the distros run the web management on a custom port..so during the install, it will tell you the web management address...make a note of that.
Note...some of the distros have you create a "root" user and pass during the install that is different than the "admin" user/pass for the web admin, make a note of that.

Take an old PC with 2x NICs and try a bunch of different distros, see which one you like. Once you've chosen one, you can look at using a smaller low power consumption box. Old laptops are great too, I used one for many years, using a PCMCIA NIC for my second network card, it was an IBM Thinkpad. Built in keyboard and mouse, built in battery backup, low power consumption, small space.

While many/most NICs work fine, you get superior performance when using good hardware controller based NICs (aka Intel, 3COM, Broadcom) versus software controller based "winNICs"....(aka realtek). Especially with the distros that are UTMs and strong in QoS.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'm going to look around in those links.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Correct. This is something that has driven me batshit crazy on the PC based routers...what is the "step by step" to get a wireless access point.
Click to expand...

I only use access points, i don't bother with ddwrt or using a ( dlink/linksys/netgear etc etc ) unit i just buy a dedicated Access point, and be done with it, instead of fucking around with tomato and that other crap.

I use a Ingenues one and love it best 89$ i have spent.

http://www.engeniustech.com/
 
I think the atom would be perfect for you, do you know if you are going to run pfsense or untangle or Astaro ?

Buying a dedicated access point is the best bet.
 
fullvietFX said:
I'm probably going to build something new using an Intel i3 and simply underclocking it. Do you think the Atom is too weak? Seems like it's as fast as a router CPU. I could be wrong however since I've never actually looked up the specs for routers.
Click to expand...
Atom CPUs are significantly faster than router CPUs. The Atom is more than enough for a router. Especially considering that many people are using Pentium III and even Pentium II based PCs as their routers. Works just fine for them. So basically, the Core i3 is pretty much overkill for a simple router.

Something to note: one of the cheapest Intel NIC is this:
$30 - Intel EXPI9301CTBLK 10/100/1000Mbps PRO/1000 GT PCI-E x1 NIC OEM w/ 1 x RJ45

That Intel Atom server mobo has two of theses basically.

fullvietFX said:
Here is another issue, if I have to use my router to get the new PC/Router/Hybrid to become a WiFi access point wouldn't that bring my network to it's knees again since basically every computer (plus PS3) in my household is wireless?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily: Just get good quality access points.
 
Can anyone expand a bit on the wireless aspect? My idea was to use an Atom based board with dual intel NICs onboard and use a PCIe wireless card for wireless off of the same machine.. Or alternatively, use a consumer-grade atom board with an Intel mini-pcie wireless card and a standard 2-port pcie Intel dual gigabit card for the RJ-45 jacks. Which router software will allow for wireless broadcasting anyways?
 
It might be easier to have a PC router and then a store bought access point.

Also, instead of building a router from space PC parts, consider the Netgear WNDR3700. I used to use a Pentium III 933 as my router, but the WNDR3700 does the same job cooler, quieter, and cheaper.
 
I recommend clearos. For me it's better than pfsense and alot easier to configure.
 
dashpuppy said:
I only use access points, i don't bother with ddwrt or using a ( dlink/linksys/netgear etc etc ) unit i just buy a dedicated Access point, and be done with it, instead of fucking around with tomato and that other crap.

I use a Ingenues one and love it best 89$ i have spent.

http://www.engeniustech.com/
Click to expand...

Hey, don't go knockin' my favorite router firmware (tomato) :p
Makes my little wrt54gl fly considering how old the thing is. It can even do some muti-connection stuff while saturating my 20mb down 5mb up connection. That said, I can't wait to see how pfsense, smoothwall and untange do when I get the extra time.
 
Ive played with Untangle, pfsense, and smoothwall.
For me:
pfSense was super picky about forwarding ports.
Smoothwall wasnt, but it refused to allow clear NAT on more than one pc...

Untangle got bogged down pretty easily when trying to play games online, even on a relatively fast computer with gigabit NICS.
It is more business orintated. And it was awesome outside of playing or hosting games.

For me, in the end, I went with the x86 version of DD-wrt. And I have never seen such a fast router/pc...

I really wanted to get pfsense to play nice....might try ClearOs..
 
dashpuppy said:
I only use access points, i don't bother with ddwrt or using a ( dlink/linksys/netgear etc etc ) unit i just buy a dedicated Access point, and be done with it, instead of fucking around with tomato and that other crap.

I use a Ingenues one and love it best 89$ i have spent.

http://www.engeniustech.com/
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point of what I posted. You said "just go buy X". Well sorry, that isn't enough. That is like saying to get to the north pole you just go north. Seriously. Off that site, why do you recommend that AP. How do you configure it work with lets say smoothwall.

Nobody has answered the core of my question and usually doesn't. Based upon the limited amount of data from the tubes I can only assume that either a) it is a total pain in the ass and I should just stick with a consumer router or b) the people who run PC based routers are too pretentious to use wireless.

Seriously, if the people here who are fans of PC based routers want to bring more into the fold you need to start covering all aspects of today's "typical" router. If you don't, well...it will stay where it will stay; in the hands of the few.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Nobody has answered the core of my question and usually doesn't. Based upon the limited amount of data from the tubes I can only assume that either a) it is a total pain in the ass and I should just stick with a consumer router or b) the people who run PC based routers are too pretentious to use wireless.
Click to expand...
Really now?

Anyway, for pfSense, there's litterally a step by step guide on how to install a Wireless interface and then use said interface as a wireless access point:
http://doc.pfsense.org/smiller/add_wifi_interface/Add_WiFi_Interface.htm

Or alternatively, follow these steps on to to hook up your old wireless router to the pfSense router:
http://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Use_an_existing_wireless_router_with_pfSense

This of course after you login to the wireless router and setup the wireless network the way you want it

So it could be C) the steps are so well documented or so relatively simple to do that there's really not much to discuss about.
 
Danny Bui said:
Really now?

Anyway, for pfSense, there's litterally a step by step guide on how to install a Wireless interface and then use said interface as a wireless access point:
http://doc.pfsense.org/smiller/add_wifi_interface/Add_WiFi_Interface.htm

Or alternatively, follow these steps on to to hook up your old wireless router to the pfSense router:
http://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Use_an_existing_wireless_router_with_pfSense

This of course after you login to the wireless router and setup the wireless network the way you want it

So it could be C) the steps are so well documented or so relatively simple to do that there's really not much to discuss about.
Click to expand...

I can understand that type of response if it is in a FAQ that is pinned to the top of this forum or even a detailed FAQ within the forum, but it is not. Forums, like this, eventually help reduce data to their most key fundamental items to make it more accessible to all.

If two of the bigs questions are "how do I selected a wireless access point for my PC router" and "how do I add the wireless access point to a PC router" and your answer is "it is trivial , go search"...seriously...it makes me shake my head.

BTW, thanks for that link...it has been bookmarked.
 
Trepidati0n said:
Forums, like this, eventually help reduce data to their most key fundamental items to make it more accessible to all.

If two of the bigs questions are "how do I selected a wireless access point for my PC router" and "how do I add the wireless access point to a PC router" and your answer is "it is trivial , go search"...seriously...it makes me shake my head.
Click to expand...
Yes forums are to help people understand a complicated topic. But one shouldn't solely rely on forums. One should at least do some research into a topic rather than be or want to be spoonfed every ounce of data, facts, details, etc.

Yes it is a bit harsh saying "go search" but there are tons of situations and cases where a simple search yields more accurate results, facts, data, etc faster and quicker than some forums and of course vice versa.
Trepidati0n said:
BTW, thanks for that link...it has been bookmarked.
Click to expand...

No prob man.
 
fullvietFX said:
I'm probably going to build something new using an Intel i3 and simply underclocking it. Do you think the Atom is too weak? Seems like it's as fast as a router CPU. I could be wrong however since I've never actually looked up the specs for routers..
Click to expand...

The Atoms are usually fine...depending on what OS/distro you're running.

While people will immediately say "An Atom is much faster tha CPUs you find on dedicated routers"....don't forget, a dedicated router that you purchase off the shelf is only running a very basic set of router instructions. When you take an Atom, you're going to be installing a full blown distro that's more a full OS with router stuff built into it. So you're not comparing apples to apples there.

However, Atoms are still fine..the older single core Atoms are fine for basic distros, and the dual core Atoms are fine for even the UTM distros...for lighter to medium loads.
Remember though, with *nix router/firewall distros...often more important is the selection of NIC. I'd rather have hardware with an old slow CPU but good Intel NICs, over hardware with a high end CPU and realsuk NICs.
 
I'm not arguing with you YeOldeStonecat, but what is it that makes Intel NICs so good?
 
450 said:
I'm not arguing with you YeOldeStonecat, but what is it that makes Intel NICs so good?
Click to expand...

what makes Ferrari so good ? I mean, a Hundi Accent has 4 tires windows a engine and is 1/150th the price of the Ferrari.
Hundi
Quality Is key, plus intel has more support, and they have their own cpu on the NIC, Realcraps rely on your motherboards cpu to process the info.


( simple terms )

J'
 
my $0.02

Aquire PC
You have a few routes for this option as listed below.

1. I myself have found that a 3.2ghz P4 with a gig of DDR work plenty fine for a 30+ user house with relatively high traffic. If you feel it nessisary to keep down on power usuage dont take this route, since older PCs tend to draw much more power than lets say a laptop or atom based m-ITX

2. Buy an Atom m-ITX board. It will be expensive, but work nicely as it is very low power, decent "ümph" behind it for home use and its small (keeping closer to a form factor of a store-bought router. If you boot off of a CF card you can keep power usuage really really low. Remeber get a 2-NIC atom board.

3. An old laptop will work as well. It has low power draw, battery backup built in, and has an all-in-one package deal to it (keyboard, mouse, monitor, ect). I would just be cautious about old laptop fans dying though, causing overheating (been there).

Find distro
Being biased in the fact that I like pfSense, please bear with me.

There are many many distros to choose from when looking for a "pc router". Some of the ones that come to mind are:
IP-Cop
Smoothwall
pfSense
Untangle
They are all good in there own respect, but all have pros and cons. I have found that:

IP-Cop is craptastic and I didn't like it. I have used it in the past, but pfSense is much better IMO

Smoothwall is nice and does the job ok but after upgrading it about 2 years ago it had seriously weird problems with DHCP handling and other weird issues. I dropped it fast after that, since I was going to try other distros anyway.

Untangle is nice and works really good. It also has a very easy UI and does a good job at handling all network stuff. I did find it slow and clunky when compared against pfSense and there is no option that I have found to install on a CF for a minimal install.

pfSense is a great distro. It has great features and it relativity easy to use after the initial install. It has nice features like VPN, great webgui, and SSH support that I have found great. The biggest draw to me was the fact it powered away with 30+ users on a 24/7 saturated network (about 300gig-1tb a month) and sat at an acceptable 50-60% CPU.

Install Distro
Once you found a distro you like download the ISO and install it on the pc-router. If you would like to experiment, try installing any distro you like. If you would like to not take down your house internet in the mean time there is also the possibility of install the router-distros on VM images and trying them out like that (my preferred method). The istallation process if documented well on the distro's home site and has step-by-step directions. Remember when install to write down the options you picked so when you load up the box you can get into it.

Enjoy!
Now you are in the world of commercial style routers. You now have the ablility to customize your network beyond your wildest dreams (well compared to a Stinksys or Nutgear *haha*). Try messing around with the plethora of options now at your dissposal.

Features to try (suggestions):

QOS - "Quality of Service" This is used to shape traffic to make your network taylor the traffic flow to your needs. Putting torrents lower on the curve lets you have 200gigs of torrents download without slowing down your HTTP traffic.

BandwithD - Shows ip usage in the most detailed way. Lets you see what IP, what traffic, when all in a graph, also sorts by top users. Helpful if you have a cap.

VPN - Great for getting into your home network while out and about.

Mac filtering - Keep out the bad guys!

DHCP Server - Not only will it dish out IPs for 192.168.0.x, but you can also tie your MAC addresses with IPs. I find this useful, some dont care.
 
450 said:
I'm not arguing with you YeOldeStonecat, but what is it that makes Intel NICs so good?
Click to expand...

I'd say drivers is the biggest reason, I have some old intel 100mb nic from like 10 years ago and drivers are still being updated for it on both windows and linux. Another 10 year old nic no name brand doesn't even work on windows 7 and is super iffy in linux.
 
450 said:
I'm not arguing with you YeOldeStonecat, but what is it that makes Intel NICs so good?
Click to expand...

Hardware controller based.
Remember back in the dial up days...when cheaper internal modems were called "WinModems". If you looked at the ISA or PCI modem..it didn't have much on it, "much" of its function was done by the computers CPU via the drivers and emulators, it was very "software driven". If you put heavy loads through it, it performed horribly. They were horrible for online gamers...since your CPU was already pounded running your game.

NICs are actually quite similar. There are cheaper software driven NICs...like realteks. And there are much better NICs that are more hardware controller based...(they don't use the CPU as much)...such as Intels, 3COMs, and some of the better Broadcoms.

When using NICs in a linux router/firewall distro, yeah almost any NIC will usually work. And almost any NIC will probably allow the device to run fine for most users, even better than your "off the shelf" retail router. And you may be perfectly happy and impressede with that. But if you build 2x boxes side by side..identical processors, identical RAM, same network, same ISP...and you put the same heavy loads on them...you'll see the box with the better Intel or 3COM NICs run circles around the box with cheaper NICs. If you get heavy into cranking up the QoS on PFSense, you'll see the box with Intels do much better. Or other symptoms.....say you run a heavy distro like Untangle...which works on layer 7...passing traffic through all of its virtual machines in the rack, you REALLY notice the difference in throughput. The cheaper box may muster 20 megs throughput, the good Intel based one may muster 80 megs throughput. Or even...the cheaper NIC box may require a reboot once a month to get things flowing again. I've personally seen all of the above. I've built and rebuilt and reconfigure many many boxes with many different distros.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Hardware controller based.
Remember back in the dial up days...when cheaper internal modems were called "WinModems". If you looked at the ISA or PCI modem..it didn't have much on it, "much" of its function was done by the computers CPU via the drivers and emulators, it was very "software driven". If you put heavy loads through it, it performed horribly. They were horrible for online gamers...since your CPU was already pounded running your game.

NICs are actually quite similar. There are cheaper software driven NICs...like realteks. And there are much better NICs that are more hardware controller based...(they don't use the CPU as much)...such as Intels, 3COMs, and some of the better Broadcoms.

When using NICs in a linux router/firewall distro, yeah almost any NIC will usually work. And almost any NIC will probably allow the device to run fine for most users, even better than your "off the shelf" retail router. And you may be perfectly happy and impressede with that. But if you build 2x boxes side by side..identical processors, identical RAM, same network, same ISP...and you put the same heavy loads on them...you'll see the box with the better Intel or 3COM NICs run circles around the box with cheaper NICs. If you get heavy into cranking up the QoS on PFSense, you'll see the box with Intels do much better. Or other symptoms.....say you run a heavy distro like Untangle...which works on layer 7...passing traffic through all of its virtual machines in the rack, you REALLY notice the difference in throughput. The cheaper box may muster 20 megs throughput, the good Intel based one may muster 80 megs throughput. Or even...the cheaper NIC box may require a reboot once a month to get things flowing again. I've personally seen all of the above. I've built and rebuilt and reconfigure many many boxes with many different distros.
Click to expand...


Great explanation! It still comes down to, " you get what you pay for " in the end.
 
This seems a little more complicated than I thought it would be. I'm going to try buying a higher end router. I went from a DIR-655 (overheated and stopped working on me), to a RT-N16 (bogs down when there's high traffic). Looks like I'll get a WNDR37AV and see how that goes before finally going to make a PC Router. Thanks for all the help fellas.
 
It's a lot simpler than it sounds, really you can take any crap computer, throw a crap nic in, pop the disc in and follow the directions. Once it's up you'll see just how powerful it can be compared to consumer grade firewall/router devices.

Then you can look at finding a better nic and test some other software and go from there. My GX240 that runs pfsense consumes about 50 watts on average and runs nearly silent, and of course it was free because it's a retired pos from work.
 
aaronearles said:
It's a lot simpler than it sounds, really you can take any crap computer, throw a crap nic in, pop the disc in and follow the directions. Once it's up you'll see just how powerful it can be compared to consumer grade firewall/router devices.

Then you can look at finding a better nic and test some other software and go from there. My GX240 that runs pfsense consumes about 50 watts on average and runs nearly silent, and of course it was free because it's a retired pos from work.
Click to expand...

WELL, i wouldn't throw in ANY crap "NIC" i would at least spend the money and buy a decent pair of Intel Nic's. gbit or 10/100.
 
Did you read the rest of the post? Realteks work fine for light usage, if he has some spare parts around and wants to check out the os without actually commiting by spending any money, he could get that far and replace them if he likes it.
 
aaronearles said:
Did you read the rest of the post? Realteks work fine for light usage, if he has some spare parts around and wants to check out the os without actually commiting by spending any money, he could get that far and replace them if he likes it.
Click to expand...

Sure it may work, but you won't really experience the os properly with out putting good hard ware with it. Isn't that like doing it half ass ?

I have a Ferrari, but i have 81 octane gas in it with Walmart tires on it, The cars nice, it should go fast but it's not because i skimped out in some areas that may be important.
 
dashpuppy said:
Sure it may work, but you won't really experience the os properly with out putting good hard ware with it. Isn't that like doing it half ass ?

I have a Ferrari, but i have 81 octane gas in it with Walmart tires on it, The cars nice, it should go fast but it's not because i skimped out in some areas that may be important.
Click to expand...

a pos K-6/Pentium 2 w/ 64mb+ ram w/ pfsense or smoothwall etc. using realtek and crappy nics can already outpace or at least stand up against many high end routers.

at least test drive that Ferrari before fully committing yourself to it.
 
I'm not sure what your idea of a "high-end" router is but that's a massive exaggeration. More like stands up to SOHO routers...
 
I think that's what he meant, like high end "gaming routers" or whatever from dlink/liknsys etc...

I think we're good on the Ferrari analogies though, it's a fucking firewall.
 
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