Venturing into the Realm of WC? Help Please.

Originally Posted by Dan_D

It helps with the ambient airflow and really, unless your radiator sits on the outside of the case, you'll need that cool air to come through the normal intake fans to get to your radiator.

Or you can just turn your fans around and pull cool air in directly through the radiator from outside ambient, and get way better cooling. Instead of pulling air into your case, letting it cool the inconsequential things that don't need to be cooled well, and then dumping hot air through your radiator.

Originally Posted by King Icewind

So I got my 6 fans yesterday. Plugged them in and started up my computer...I've built a hovercraft! It's loud! Idc tho

LOL! I thought the whole idea behind watercooling was to get a system that was higher-performance AND quieter than an aircooled system.

Originally Posted by x509

LOL! I thought the whole idea behind watercooling was to get a system that was higher-performance AND quieter than an aircooled system.

There are two 'camps' within watercooling.
The first camp shoots for silence, and any overclocking you get beyond stock is just a bonus.
The second camp shoots for all out performance, with total disregard to noise.

Because of these two camps, different product lines have emerged to cater to each group.

Some radiators have high FPI and some radiators have low FPI. The high FPI rads require high flow and high pressure(usually noisy) fans to perform their best. With these high speed fans, the high FPI rads can outperform the low FPI rads significantly. Unfortunately the density of these rads is a double edged sword due to the static pressure require to push air through them. When you equip them with low speed fans, their performance drops off very quickly.

Low FPI rads suffer from the opposite effect. Because of their low density, low speed fans can effectively push air through them, and the air absorbs heat. However, at a certain point(It's different, depending on the rad) their performance will stop scaling well with higher speed fans because they lack the surface area to take advantage of the additional volume of air. There simply is not enough area to spread the heat out onto effectively to be dissipated.

So, depending on the amount of heat you're putting into your loop(some people just have CPU's, others cool everything they can find a waterblock for), and your 'view' on watercooling, you will select your components accordingly.

If you're only cooling your CPU, and you get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a low FPI rad, because you don't have a whole lot of heat, and you'll be able to get rid of all of it silently.

If you have a full loop of cpu, nb, mosfet, sb, 2x gpu's and you only get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a high FPI rad and super high speed fans, because you're dumping a ton of heat into your coolant, and a low FPI rad won't cut it.

Of course in the situation where you have a full loop, instead of getting a single 3x120mm high FPI rad with high speed fans, you could go with two 3x120mm low FPI rads. But at that point you are affecting cost, and space required.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Yea, i defiantly didn't get the water cooling for quietness...for looks and performance.

Ill be posting some pics of the final build within the week.

I run 47cfm yates on my rad and my temps are great.

Just faster fans makes our temps even better

Originally Posted by lollerskater69

I had the understanding that static pressure is the pressure exerted by air or water, in our case air. Fans that are 38mm thick usually provide more because the blades are deeper?(couldn't find a word for that) and that is what helps high FPI rads like the GTX and GTS shine because the 38mm thick fans have the PRESSURE to push through the high fin density of the radiator. Correct me if I am wrong because I am just going with what I understood static pressure to be.

Best shrouds are empty fans lol. Ghetto but effective.

Your are correct, I kinda triped myself up due to the way I think about fans. We usually are looking for a fan that will deliver a higher static pressure at some CFM/RPM which helps overcome the resistance to flow provided by rad fins or whatever. So in my mind over the years I started to equate the flow resistance to the fans static pressure or more correctly the fans ability (static pressure) to over come the "system resistance" or "back pressure" if you will. So I started using the term incorrectly. I interchanged the fans static pressure with the system backpressure. You are exactly right. Given two fans that flow the same CFM @ some RPM we would want the fan with the higher static pressure as it would tend to be more powerful and less affected by increases in resistance to the airflow say to dust build up in the fins blah blah.

You are right. I was mistaken/mispoken. Thanks for setting me straight I like to say what I mean and mean what I say and I was using the terms backwards.

Hmm...I wasn't really looking all that hard, but I didn't see anything for cleaning tubing in the FAQ Sticky...?

If i don't need to clean it then great, but if I do, any suggestions on the best way to clean 20 feet of tubing?

Thanks

Originally Posted by King Icewind

Hmm...I wasn't really looking all that hard, but I didn't see anything for cleaning tubing in the FAQ Sticky...?

If i don't need to clean it then great, but if I do, any suggestions on the best way to clean 20 feet of tubing?

Thanks

If it's new, don't bother.
Otherwise, you can pick up a lab flask cleaner, and use some rubbing alcohol.

save yourself WC is an addiction dont do it.....

Originally Posted by p3sty

save yourself WC is an addiction dont do it.....

It really is.

Originally Posted by Dan_D

It really is.

Addiction seems to be a theme on the forum for the last few days.

On that note, I have purchased three CPU waterblocks in the last two months.

Originally Posted by Zoson

Addiction seems to be a theme on the forum for the last few days.

On that note, I have purchased three CPU waterblocks in the last two months.

I've only purchased two. A Koolance CPU-350-AT and a Swiftech Apogee GTZ.

Originally Posted by Dan_D

I've only purchased two. A Koolance CPU-350-AT and a Swiftech Apogee GTZ.

I gotta say, aside from the superb mounting system, I was rather disappointed with my GTZ. Which is why I replaced it with the Enzotech Sapphire.

Originally Posted by Zoson

I gotta say, aside from the superb mounting system, I was rather disappointed with my GTZ. Which is why I replaced it with the Enzotech Sapphire.

What did you not like about the mounting system?

Originally Posted by King Icewind

So the fans will be pushing the warm air, from everything in your computer, through the rad?

You wouldn't be getting as good of temps as you could that way. Especially with a gpu and cpu all in one loop.

How much difference? Let's say I wanted to overclock the i7 920 to 4 GHz or faster. And I had a mid-range GPU that cost me say $200+ which I didn't overclock?

Would it be practical to just add a second radiator. Case is a Corsair 800D, which has lots of room.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by x509

How much difference? Let's say I wanted to overclock the i7 920 to 4 GHz or faster. And I had a mid-range GPU that cost me say $200+ which I didn't overclock?

Would it be practical to just add a second radiator. Case is a Corsair 800D, which has lots of room.

Thanks.

If you have a good triple radiator it should be able to handle the heat load of both your CPU and your graphics card. Even a high end graphics card and Core i7 should be fine on the same loop. Now if you want to start cooling the motherboard, CPU, dual or triple graphics cards, etc. a separate loop is probably advisable.

Originally Posted by Dan_D

What did you not like about the mounting system?

No, no. ASIDE from the SUPERB mounting system.
I like the mounting system of the GTZ.

I was disappointed in the performance, which was non-existant in comparison to my pre-release DTek MP-05.

Although the Enzotech Sapphire's Mount is pretty much just as simple and easy as the Swiftech.

I haven't tried to change the mounting hardware on the GTZ myself yet. However in the past I've hated the fact that you had to take the block completely apart to change mounting hardware. That is just piss poor planning during the design phase.

Originally Posted by Zoson

There are two 'camps' within watercooling.
The first camp shoots for silence, and any overclocking you get beyond stock is just a bonus.
The second camp shoots for all out performance, with total disregard to noise.

Aha! I know some guys are going to roll their eyes and say, "where has this guy been?" but when it comes to watercooling, calling me "n00b" would be giving me a "promotion."

I definitely fall into the first camp. I'm tired of really noisy systems, and I want my next system to be quiet as well as powerful. My next system will be built around an ASUS P6TD Extreme with an i7 920 overclocked as much as possible, for heavy duty Photoshopping of large images, but I'm not a gamer. 6 or maybe 12 GB of RAM, speed TBD, 1 only mid-range GPU tbd, running Windows 7 Ultimate, all housed in a Corsair 800D case. Plus the 4 hard drives and DVD burner now in my current system.

So I've read about how "insanely easy" it is to overclock an i7 920 to 4 GHz, so I want to do that, but without making my system sound like a 747 taking off.

I need only one graphics card, because Photoshop (and all of Adobe CS 4) only supports one GPU, and I'll spend a few more bucks on the card, if I need to do that for better performance, rather than try to overclock the GPU and have to spend a whole lot more on watercooling.

Because of these two camps, different product lines have emerged to cater to each group.

Some radiators have high FPI and some radiators have low FPI.

FPI is fins per inch? Whatever it is, your explanation below makes it clear that I should pick a low FPI radiator. Now, who makes a low FPI radiator? Or, what consistutes low FPI?

The high FPI rads require high flow and high pressure(usually noisy) fans to perform their best. With these high speed fans, the high FPI rads can outperform the low FPI rads significantly. Unfortunately the density of these rads is a double edged sword due to the static pressure require to push air through them. When you equip them with low speed fans, their performance drops off very quickly.

Low FPI rads suffer from the opposite effect. Because of their low density, low speed fans can effectively push air through them, and the air absorbs heat. However, at a certain point(It's different, depending on the rad) their performance will stop scaling well with higher speed fans because they lack the surface area to take advantage of the additional volume of air. There simply is not enough area to spread the heat out onto effectively to be dissipated.

Yeah, that's very clear. I want a low FPI radiator. Is there any way to calculate how much total heat a low FPI radiator can throw off, or how much total heat the radiator can handle before it stops scaling?

So, depending on the amount of heat you're putting into your loop(some people just have CPU's, others cool everything they can find a waterblock for), and your 'view' on watercooling, you will select your components accordingly.

If you're only cooling your CPU, and you get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a low FPI rad, because you don't have a whole lot of heat, and you'll be able to get rid of all of it silently.

If you have a full loop of cpu, nb, mosfet, sb, 2x gpu's and you only get a 3x120mm radiator, you should go for a high FPI rad and super high speed fans, because you're dumping a ton of heat into your coolant, and a low FPI rad won't cut it.

I will definitely want to cool the CPU and GPU, so I can get rid of the fans on those coolers. As for cooling the nb, mosfet (no sb in the P58 chipset), I dunno. Also, you haven't mentioned RAM, but other guys have told me that air cooling is OK for RAM, even reallly high performance RAM.

Of course in the situation where you have a full loop, instead of getting a single 3x120mm high FPI rad with high speed fans, you could go with two 3x120mm low FPI rads. But at that point you are affecting cost, and space required.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Your post absolutely clears things up for me. I think I will want to stick with one loop, and hope I can avoid having to put in a second 3 x 120 low FPI rad.

Knowing all this makes me more willing to spend a few extra bucks on the newly announced AMD/ATI 5850, because supposely that card runs much cooler than its predecessors and competitive cards from nVidia that have roughly equivalent performance.

Yes, you have cleared up a whole lot, means means narrowing down the range of choices.

Originally Posted by x509

So I've read about how "insanely easy" it is to overclock an i7 920 to 4 GHz, so I want to do that, but without making my system sound like a 747 taking off.

I can't attest to how easy or not it is with an i7. I generally take the 'gimme' overclock that people advertise and knock it down by about 20%. I find a lot of FUD on every overclocking forum where people are either not properly testing for stability, or falsely claiming stability at a given speed.

Originally Posted by x509

FPI is fins per inch? Whatever it is, your explanation below makes it clear that I should pick a low FPI radiator. Now, who makes a low FPI radiator? Or, what consistutes low FPI?

XSPC is 8FPI, HWLabs SR1 is 9FPI, and Thermochill is 10FPI.

Originally Posted by x509

Yeah, that's very clear. I want a low FPI radiator. Is there any way to calculate how much total heat a low FPI radiator can throw off, or how much total heat the radiator can handle before it stops scaling?

The only place I've found that is doing meaningful comparisons of watercooling equipment is Skinee Labs:
http://www.skinneelabs.com/

Unfortunately they are engineers, and not journalists and publishers... So the material tends to be very dense.

Originally Posted by x509

I will definitely want to cool the CPU and GPU, so I can get rid of the fans on those coolers. As for cooling the nb, mosfet (no sb in the P58 chipset), I dunno. Also, you haven't mentioned RAM, but other guys have told me that air cooling is OK for RAM, even reallly high performance RAM.

Lots to touch on here...
GPU overclocking, in my opinion, is one of those 'highly unnecessary' but 'nice' additions to watercooling. The percentage increases you get by adding cooling to a GPU are very small. Just last weekend, I added GPU cooling to my loop. This was after only having my CPU, NB, and SB watercooled and finding out what my chips could do. I had enough headroom left in my cooler to add some more heat, so I did.

Mind you, these cards are GTX275's that came with the SC bios from EVGA. They both overclocked to FTW speeds on air with the fans running at 60%, which is virtually silent.

Watercooling your power circuitry is completely unnecessary. Stick some good solid copper coolers on them from Enzotech or some of those heatpiped Thermalright and you're well beyond any cooling required.

Likewise, watercooling your memory is also completely unnecessary. The heatspreaders that come on them nowdays are... Significantly oversized for the most part. Generally you should only really care if it has a heatspreader or not. Manufacturer of your memory makes a much bigger difference. I've had good luck with Crucial, Kingston, Corsair, G.Skill, and Patriot. Of course if you get one of their value lines... Expect to get what you pay for.

Northbridge watercooling is one of the most important factors to getting the most overclock out of your chip. Nowdays it is more about getting the luck of the draw on a motherboard enabling you to get a higher bus speed(bclk in i7).

Anyway, my parts suggestions are:
CPU: Enzotech Sapphire (can be had at newegg as a combo with i7 mounting for only $35!)
NB: Whatever EK or Bitspower makes for your motherboard
SB/Equivalent: From what I've seen x58 NB coolers include southbridge cooling. If not - Swiftech MCW30
GPU: Swiftech MCW60 with full coverage extruded aluminum heatsink.(Keeps mem/pwm cooled by air, but core cooled by water)
Power: I have Enzotech forged copper heatsinks. I like them more than the Thermalright offerings...
Pump: MCP655
Rads: HWLabs SR1 series
Fans: Enermax Magma Twister(top speed of ~1600RPM pushing ~70CFM at very low noise, responds to undervolting very nicely)
Res: Swiftech MCRes Micro v2
Barbs/Tubes: Get everything with 1/2" ID 5/8" OD
Clamps: Don't forget these. Herbie clips will do the job, but I recently switched to bitspower compression clamps(not to be confused with compression fittings). Herbie clips are a pain to remove and work with in general.