GTX Corrosion

E

Erasmus354

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 12, 2004
Messages
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Here is some more proof that corrosion is real and mixed metals are bad! Some horror shots of a Swiftech Apogee GTX after only four months!

More information in the original thread (registration required unfortunately): http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=628142

GTX1.jpg



GTX2.jpg



Swiftech should have known better, they should have never used aluminum and should have used copper from the start. Too bad the copper top is 40$ in addition to the 60-70 for the block itself.
 
Holy shit that is worse than the corrosion I got with the original dtek GPU block :(

I do have to say if you don't run any anti corrosion additives you were asking for problems. Since this guy has posted the same thread on two other forums and has been asked (with no response) it would appear he has an agenda......
 
Looks like the top is starting to fall apart, good thing you checked before a leak sprung!
 
Sigh... If only they had used a plastic hold-down, or isolated it from that zinc-coated aluminum... None of this would have happened.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Here is some more proof that corrosion is real and mixed metals are bad!
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Corrosion is real if your too stupid to take some very simple precautions. That does not equate to mixed metals are bad. :rolleyes:

I have copper, silver, and aluminum all in the same loop without a single speck of corrosion in several years. That is with a 2% anti-corrosive solution to 98% distilled water.

Arcygenical said:
Sigh... If only they had used a plastic hold-down, or isolated it from that zinc-coated aluminum... None of this would have happened.
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Or a few cc's of AC Fluid or whatever Innovatek or Alphacool call it...

Or tossed a sacrificial anode into the water circuit somewhere. :)
 
How do you explain my complete lack of corrosion in my old WC system that had copper blocks, copper rad, and several Al blocks. Some not even anodized. CPU block was swiftech like the one you posted pics of, copper base, al jacket. Ran 18 months, 24/7.

when it was decomissioned I took all the WC stuff apart, except the rad. Opened all the blocks, and guess what?

No corrosion. None, nada, zip.

all becuase I used distilled water and a 5% mix of anticorrosion additive.:rolleyes:

your chicken little posting and trolling in general doesn't impress me.;)
 
Or tossed a sacrificial anode into the water circuit somewhere.
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Yuck... Then you get all that particulate matter in the loop!

How do you explain my complete lack of corrosion in my old WC system that had copper blocks, copper rad, and several Al blocks. Some not even anodized. CPU block was swiftech like the one you posted pics of, copper base, al jacket. Ran 18 months, 24/7.
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There are lots of factors that influence corrosion and the rate of corrosion. But, generally, I agree. Just use 10% pentosin and clean out the loop yearly...

However, I've seen some HORRIBLE cases of corrosion. A customer added an aquatube into his thermaltake loop... And added an extra brass radiator with two 7900GTX waterblocks...
Surprisingly the Aquatube was sheered to hell! The TT stuff was pretty much fine (except for the main waterblock) and the graphics blocks were coated with the grossest slime I've ever had to clean off.

I had to use 30% HCL acid to get all that crap off.
 
Listen, the main issue here is that Gabe from Swiftech claimed that the plating is very good, enough to not worry about any corrosion using just distilled water (back when Gabe released the GTX and the ppl is bitching about the aluminium). That's what backfired here and why Gabe released a copper top recently.

If Gabe said to never use it without any anticorrosion additive like Pentosin and included this warning in the GTX packaging, then we shouldn't be here arguing.

This is not trolling, just setting the facts straight because it seems there is a lot of misinformation running around here.

 
the main issue here is that Gabe from Swiftech claimed that the plating is very good,
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So far, this is the only case of corrosion I've seen with the GTX... Now, I'm sure there are more (I mean, very few people look inside their blocks that often, etc.) but until more stats are known, I don't think we can determine how good the plating really is.

A single chip, the size of a pinhead, would be enough to start the chain of corrosion.
 
Arcygenical said:
So far, this is the only case of corrosion I've seen with the GTX... Now, I'm sure there are more (I mean, very few people look inside their blocks that often, etc.) but until more stats are known, I don't think we can determine how good the plating really is.

A single chip, the size of a pinhead, would be enough to start the chain of corrosion.
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On XS, I heard of 3 cases like that. Alex from Petra's Tech Shop said himself that he saw 3-5 corroded blocks and even if Gabe wanted Alex to send them for analysis, Alex decided to get it to a independent lab to analyze it (right now, he is shopping for a good one not too expensive).

You are right, a pinhole or a very light scratch (It's possible to damage the plating just by screwing the metal barbs) is all it take to start the chain of corrosion and I said that myself already over on XS.

However, it's true that the corrosion cases like that is very rare because the majority is usually running their loop with some ready made coolants like HydrX or distilled water with Pentosin, which act well enough to slow down the process to the point that it won't happen at all with regular coolant flush/refill. The cases is mostly for those who didn't flush for over one year and used plain distilled with no enough anticorrosion additive (not really their fault since Swiftech instructions has no warning about that).

 
Xilikon said:
On XS, I heard of 3 cases like that. Alex from Petra's Tech Shop said himself that he saw 3-5 corroded blocks and even if Gabe wanted Alex to send them for analysis, Alex decided to get it to a independent lab to analyze it (right now, he is shopping for a good one not too expensive).

You are right, a pinhole or a very light scratch (It's possible to damage the plating just by screwing the metal barbs) is all it take to start the chain of corrosion and I said that myself already over on XS.

However, it's true that the corrosion cases like that is very rare because the majority is usually running their loop with some ready made coolants like HydrX or distilled water with Pentosin, which act well enough to slow down the process to the point that it won't happen at all with regular coolant flush/refill. The cases is mostly for those who didn't flush for over one year and used plain distilled with no enough anticorrosion additive (not really their fault since Swiftech instructions has no warning about that).

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I don't know about you but every set of instructions I've read (do you read them???) recomends HydrX for corrosion protection along with distilled water only.

Read the instructions and all is good............:eek:
 
Bio-Hazard said:
I don't know about you but every set of instructions I've read (do you read them???) recomends HydrX for corrosion protection along with distilled water only.

Read the instructions and all is good............:eek:
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Since I never bought a GTX, I didn't read but I just read their pdf installation guide. You are right it's written but this may not be enough since recommend != required. What should have been written is "You are required to use anticorrosion additives" or something like that since it seems not following the advice can cause bad consequences... It's like a car manufacturer writing in the manual it is recommended to use unleaded fuel and the owner put diesel because it's cheaper thus causing damages.

This is the heart of the problem.

Also, when Gabe of Swiftech presented the new waterblock, the community on XS expressed their disagreement about using aluminium in the waterblock construction. During the debate, Gabe always minimized the issue by saying it is using military spec plating, it's so good it won't corrode and other similar claims. With such kind of claims, we tend to think it won't corrode no matter what and it turned up that after some time, it's not correct. If Gabe said it's aluminium and it can cause corrosion without proper addition of anticorrosion additives, we won't be here debating on it but his greed and his attempt to get support from the most vocal watercooling community on XS led to the current mess. If he is being honest from the start, the community will reject it and suggest other waterblocks. Just look at why AC isn't well received here and on XS and you will get the reason behind the issue (It's also hard to convice alumniphobics to buy something with aluminium in it).

 
It looks like he had to use a screwdriver to split that block apart. Coalescence at it's best (I had a dictionary for breakfast).
 
Xilikon said:
This is the heart of the problem.

Also, when Gabe of Swiftech presented the new waterblock, the community on XS expressed their disagreement about using aluminium in the waterblock construction. During the debate, Gabe always minimized the issue by saying it is using military spec plating, it's so good it won't corrode and other similar claims. With such kind of claims, we tend to think it won't corrode no matter what and it turned up that after some time, it's not correct. If Gabe said it's aluminium and it can cause corrosion without proper addition of anticorrosion additives, we won't be here debating on it but his greed and his attempt to get support from the most vocal watercooling community on XS led to the current mess. If he is being honest from the start, the community will reject it and suggest other waterblocks. Just look at why AC isn't well received here and on XS and you will get the reason behind the issue (It's also hard to convice alumniphobics to buy something with aluminium in it).
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AC isn't received here well? Actually those guys on XS and some here too hate AC because they have aluminum in their loops and DON'T HAVE corrosion problems which THEY KNOW can't happen!

I noticed recently that the nurse seemed quite prolific in getting banned at a few other forums. Like somebody said a while back she didn't know when to stop. She seemed to have a burning desire about this very same topic though: XS thread 1; XS thread 2; and XS thread 3. I found some others at WizD, but I can't seem to find them again.

The most interesting thing is that many of the same posters in those other forums are the same ones posting here. Seems we have a discussion where there are no answers other than what works for us individually. So lets just ask for a thread closure here. :)
 
thanks for the pics I enjoyed them. I'd rather have a lexan/acrylic top than an aluminum one myself...I run pentosin and didn't flush my loop for almsot 3 years. The only corrosion I have found so far is on my fillport plug which is not in contact with the coolant directly.

Nice thing abotu the lexan tops is you can see corrosion without having to take them apart. That said I never looked in my Maze4 GPU block.

Shame on swiftech for using aluminum. Thats what seperates the Men from the boys.

Top Nurse got banned? Shame such an old member got banned. Even if she did like AC, she did provide the forum with lots of good info and pictures as well.
 
BaDave said:
Looks like he filled the system with pool water.
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... HCL...

Actually those guys on XS and some here too hate AC because they have aluminum in their loops and DON'T HAVE corrosion problems which THEY KNOW can't happen!
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It's happening... But generally really, really, re e a l l y slowly.

She seemed to have a burning desire about this very same topic though: XS thread 1; XS thread 2; and XS thread 3. I found some others at WizD, but I can't seem to find them again.
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Wow... Does everyone over at XS have no idea of the physics behind galvanic corrosion? That's why I don't post there... It's like a fish-tank. There's a few informed members, who act as the owners, feeding out information. Then, the rest of the members are the fish who senselessly gobble down all the information, which by that time has turned to twisted bullshit.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
Matters..... 3 years no problems with AC gear. I think the real problem comes into play when you bolt aluminum directly to copper.
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Oh absolutely. In-fact... That's the main environment where corrosion takes place. That's why plastic inserts are always used to couple differing metals in a plumbing system, or why gaskets are used in boilers.
 
Justintoxicated said:
Top Nurse got banned? Shame such an old member got banned. Even if she did like AC, she did provide the forum with lots of good info and pictures as well.
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From what everyone around here says, that appears to be the case. Unfortunately they nuked all the threads she started so the biggest store house of English based Aqua Computer information in the world also went bye-bye too. :(
 
waterlogged said:
From what everyone around here says, that appears to be the case. Unfortunately they nuked all the threads she started so the biggest store house of English based Aqua Computer information in the world also went bye-bye too. :(
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I think the phrase you are looking for is "they threw the baby out with the bath water".

Such a pity.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
QFT..... Without her we might not have seen AC in the US market.
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How come?

Something about this GTX corrosion sounds fishy to me. I think it is another one of those made up scenarios where someone did whatever they could to get corrosion. As typical for these kinds of threads the OP's toss out pics like a hand grenade and then run for cover. Is this what you call a trolling thread?
 
waterlogged said:
How come?

Something about this GTX corrosion sounds fishy to me. I think it is another one of those made up scenarios where someone did whatever they could to get corrosion. As typical for these kinds of threads the OP's toss out pics like a hand grenade and then run for cover. Is this what you call a trolling thread?
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Exactly and doesn't surprise me!!!!

The person told Swiftech that they used tap water and not additives.... The guy was asking for problems. Doesn't change my stance on never bolting aluminum directly to copper.
 
I find it interesting that Erasmus354 has not posted anything since starting this thread, and he has been a regular on the forums- in fact he was on less then an hour ago as of this post. :eek:
 
topcat989 said:
I find it interesting that Erasmus354 has not posted anything since starting this thread, and he has been a regular on the forums- in fact he was on less then an hour ago as of this post. :eek:
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I have been on vacation....lots of people tend to do that around the holidays. Anyways I think my post was pretty self explanatory. Pics of the corrosion and a link to the thread explaining it. I did not personally have the corrosion experience so I didn't really have much to add. I didn't feel like jumping in on the TN rememberance circle jerk, thank you very much.
 
BillParrish said:
Well that kind of explains it.
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Sad part is most will still blame Swiftech for putting aluminum with copper even though the person was a complete ass......

Watercooling community that won't take responsibility for their actions:

"well if swiftech didn't make the block it wouldn't have been a problem"

Adults with common sense:

"what dipshit doesn't read instructions? that person got what he asked for.."
 
R1ckCa1n said:
Sad part is most will still blame Swiftech for putting aluminum with copper even though the person was a complete ass......

Watercooling community that won't take responsibility for their actions:

"well if swiftech didn't make the block it wouldn't have been a problem"

Adults with common sense:

"what dipshit doesn't read instructions? that person got what he asked for.."
Click to expand...
Let's be fair here. Swiftech touted the aluminum plating as 'military spec' and 'bullet proof' and even went on to say that acrylic would be far more likely to crack as a top than the GTX would be to corrode. NEVER did they once say (or post on their site in the specs) that one MUST use corrosion inhibitor! In fact, they were so bold that they offer a 5 year warranty on the top. Now, I bet this warranty does NOT extend if no anti corrosive additives are used.

Look just to be crystal clear here, whenever aluminum is used corrosion inhibitors MUST be used to be safe, HOWEVER, Swiftech made their coating of the GTX seem like it was as good as copper, no additives EVER needed. This was indeed the wrong thing to convey and it is THIS fact that has me and others upset. Saying that people are dumb for not using additives is not only counter productive but it is also not the point.

Don't make something and tell everyone that it will never corrode and is bullet proof then when one does corrode say well gee, of course you used tap water and no additives.
 
nikhsub1 said:
Let's be fair here. Swiftech touted the aluminum plating as 'military spec' and 'bullet proof' and even went on to say that acrylic would be far more likely to crack as a top than the GTX would be to corrode. NEVER did they once say (or post on their site in the specs) that one MUST use corrosion inhibitor! In fact, they were so bold that they offer a 5 year warranty on the top. Now, I bet this warranty does NOT extend if no anti corrosive additives are used.

Look just to be crystal clear here, whenever aluminum is used corrosion inhibitors MUST be used to be safe, HOWEVER, Swiftech made their coating of the GTX seem like it was as good as copper, no additives EVER needed. This was indeed the wrong thing to convey and it is THIS fact that has me and others upset. Saying that people are dumb for not using additives is not only counter productive but it is also not the point.

Don't make something and tell everyone that it will never corrode and is bullet proof then when one does corrode say well gee, of course you used tap water and no additives.
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I see your point but still think the consumer needs to use common sense (better yet take accountablity for mistakes)....... Even though I have been mixing aluminum and copper in the same loop for years with great sucess I would never A) use tap water, B) use straight distilled, or C) use any combo that includes bolting aluminum directly to copper.

You new toy is shipping to you on Monday!!!!
 
nikhsub1 said:
........of course you used tap water and no additives.
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anybody that uses tap water in thier WC system deserves corrosion. It shows that they didn't bother with any kind of research before just buying the wc stuff and pouring in the tap water. Anybody doing even a cursory amount of research b4 jumping into WC will learn that tap water is a big no no. Same mentality of noobs who don't lurk, don't read the rules, don't read the FAQs, and just jump in and post the most ignorant shit. Which they would have avoided if they'd only taken the time to do a little research.


except for the stupid ones- no FAQ will cure them.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
The original post actually came from someone on this forum.....
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Well then my apologies! However, while checking out XS I read all about how Swiftech said that their "military spec" coating was the best in the world against MILSPEC salt spray tests.

However, there is a subset of people who will do anything to prove themselves right. If you take a good look at the pics you will see something odd. Why is the majority of the corrosion limited to one area of the pin grid. Looks to me like they filled it up with water and let it sit in there.

Also the block cover appears to have been damaged purposefully in the right upper area where it looks like someone cut the block. Then of course what is all that white stuff? Looks to me like dried up water that had a lot of minerals and calcium in it (tap water).

So how much of the pic is actual non-user induced corrosion?
 
waterlogged said:
Well then my apologies! However, while checking out XS I read all about how Swiftech said that their "military spec" coating was the best in the world against MILSPEC salt spray tests.

Right, which is why I never bought their assertions in the first place. When's the last time you subjected your rig to a salt spray? hmm? lol.

However, there is a subset of people who will do anything to prove themselves right. If you take a good look at the pics you will see something odd. Why is the majority of the corrosion limited to one area of the pin grid. Looks to me like they filled it up with water and let it sit in there.

When aluminum is stripped from a block, it will move to the closest copper cathode... Which would make sense. If the corrosion started in one spot, that spot will accumulate the most grime.

Also the block cover appears to have been damaged purposefully in the right upper area where it looks like someone cut the block. Then of course what is all that white stuff? Looks to me like dried up water that had a lot of minerals and calcium in it (tap water).

That "cut" is actually kinda normal for such corrosion scenarios... but it could also be a manufacturing defect, or a deliberate manipulation of the block. It's impossible to tell at this point.

The white stuff, however, is a byproduct of corrosion, and it accompanies all aluminum/copper galvanic cells.
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responded in quote.
 
topcat989 said:
anybody that uses tap water in thier WC system deserves corrosion. It shows that they didn't bother with any kind of research before just buying the wc stuff and pouring in the tap water. Anybody doing even a cursory amount of research b4 jumping into WC will learn that tap water is a big no no. Same mentality of noobs who don't lurk, don't read the rules, don't read the FAQs, and just jump in and post the most ignorant shit. Which they would have avoided if they'd only taken the time to do a little research.


except for the stupid ones- no FAQ will cure them.
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Wow you don't know how to read or you don't listen. How about I give you quotes from Swiftech (Gabe and Eric) regarding the top just when the GTX was released. Damn you guys are dense over here.

A collection of past Swiftech posts (Gabe and OPPainter) regarding the GTX and corrosion from this thread: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136661&page=1

I'm highlighting my favorite part in red.

gabe said:
Nickel/Zinc cobalt plated Aluminum:

We provide the MIL and ASTM specs on the plating of these housings. why hasn't anyone bothered to google these specs?

Please, let's review the facts (in this case the specs), before a hasty judgement is passed.

The treatment we give these parts is Military grade, and it is now being used by many other industries, including of course the Military. It's expensive, but well worth it.
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gabe said:
here is the plating treatment sequence :

Wash/degrease
Caustic Etch
Acid Etch
De-oxydizer
Zincate primer
Electroless Nickel plating 12 micron
Zinc-cobalt plating 6 micron
Black die
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gabe said:
I could justify this choice with 3 pages of technical explanations, but in final analysis: because I liked it! It's that simple.

And since I always put my money were my mouth is, the block is covered by a 5 year warranty.

We have been criticized in the past because we don't follow the bling trends (plexi tops etc..). I wanted to make something really beautiful, not bling, beautiful. So, while I do understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I also know that the proud owners of this block will be tempted to keep their case opened, just so that they can keep admiring it!
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OPPAINTER said:
I don't know if this was mentioned before or not, but the fact is that the big wig engineers (smart guys) :D at Intel told Swiftech how to coat the aluminum. I'm pretty sure they knew what they where talking about. Then again, they are only INTEL :D

OPP
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gabe said:
The quality of plating is defined by specifications. At equal specifications, the quality of a plated flute will be exactly the same as a that of a plated water-block. The cost of plating a musical instrument will be much higher simply because of the much larger surface area to plate.

Frankly, I don't know if manufacturers of musical instruments publish their plating specifications. After all, musicians might not be as interested in the manufacturing process as they are in the musical characteristics of their instrument. Conversely, our audience is composed of engineers and technically oriented people who need industry standard references (ASTM, MilSpec) to evaluate our manufacturing quality standards.
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gabe said:
We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and as a result I am completely confident with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave water-block base bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.
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Yep. Couldn't have quoted it better nikh... This just reaffirms my view that aluminum has no benefits in a water loop.
 
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